Flair/Hogan matches

[iamthedoctor]

There's also that Ric Flair jumping in 1985 or 1986 changes the wrestling landscape and is about as huge as it gets. Ric Flair jumping in 1988 is a really big acquisition that helps Vince get to his 2001 monopoly 13 years early. Ric Flair jumping in 1991 is a major star who has passed his peak as a draw years earlier, but who still has a lot to offer because of the fresh matchups with the WWF's top stars of the time. Still the biggest outside name the WWF can pick up, but the WWF is so far ahead of the competition by 1991 that it's not anywhere near as big as it would have been five years earlier.

 

For me im glad Ric didn't leave NWA in 88 as Id heard about him wrestling Savage at Summerslam 88 but then we wouldn't have been treated to the 1989 feud with Ricky Steamboat.

 

I think Vince made a mistake in depushing him and letting him go. One advantage to Flair in 93 is that hes a relatively steroid-proof Star.

 

If they had kept Flair in 93 as Main Eventer who would he have feuded with? Hogan, Piper, Warrior were all gone and Randy was back commentating.

[Matt D]

 

 

There's also that Ric Flair jumping in 1985 or 1986 changes the wrestling landscape and is about as huge as it gets. Ric Flair jumping in 1988 is a really big acquisition that helps Vince get to his 2001 monopoly 13 years early. Ric Flair jumping in 1991 is a major star who has passed his peak as a draw years earlier, but who still has a lot to offer because of the fresh matchups with the WWF's top stars of the time. Still the biggest outside name the WWF can pick up, but the WWF is so far ahead of the competition by 1991 that it's not anywhere near as big as it would have been five years earlier.

For me im glad Ric didn't leave NWA in 88 as Id heard about him wrestling Savage at Summerslam 88 but then we wouldn't have been treated to the 1989 feud with Ricky Steamboat.

I think Vince made a mistake in depushing him and letting him go. One advantage to Flair in 93 is that hes a relatively steroid-proof Star.

If they had kept Flair in 93 as Main Eventer who would he have feuded with? Hogan, Piper, Warrior were all gone and Randy was back commentating.

Fair question. Just at first glance, I'd ride the Perfect feud out to Wrestlemania, do tags with Luger vs Hart/Perfect/Savage/etc. on the house shows after that, have Hart beat him in the final of KOTR, transition him over to Crush to help get him over (he'd be perfect for that), then feud him with Ramon in the fall and Luger over Winter. You could slot Tatanka in there somewhere too if need be. The point would be to help get some of these guys over while still keeping Flair strong ( to alleviate the fact that he wanted to be towards the top of the card. Itd be a matter of presenting these feuds as important).

 

Of course, the other choice is Undertaker.

[El-P]

While WCW didn't book the feud perfectly, they drew and had strong matches there. To me, their lack of chemistry is being overstated.

 

This. Even by early 1999 they drew the biggest WCW PPV buyrate in a long while, and were still working quite decently together, with Hogan carrying the bulk of the work at this point (yeah, I said it, Hogan was better than Flair then). The first match in 1994 is everything it should have been and one of Hogan's best matches.

[sek69]

I get the impression Flair never really felt comfortable in the WWF at that time. He was only there because WCW management were being dicks, and nothing about him really fit in the 1991 "WWF Universe" (if you will). After the initial "oh shit, it's Ric Flair in the WWF" moment it was like Vince really didn't know what to do with him and he really didn't want to be there.

[iamthedoctor]

I get the impression Flair never really felt comfortable in the WWF at that time. He was only there because WCW management were being dicks, and nothing about him really fit in the 1991 "WWF Universe" (if you will). After the initial "oh shit, it's Ric Flair in the WWF" moment it was like Vince really didn't know what to do with him and he really didn't want to be there.

 

It seems ironic that as soon as Flair came in that Ricky Steamboat left which is a shame as imagine Flair/Steamboat in WWF but then again im sure management wouldn't have made it work like NWA did. Feuds from other feds don't seem to transition well when WWE does the matches years later.

 

 

While WCW didn't book the feud perfectly, they drew and had strong matches there. To me, their lack of chemistry is being overstated.

 

This. Even by early 1999 they drew the biggest WCW PPV buyrate in a long while, and were still working quite decently together, with Hogan carrying the bulk of the work at this point (yeah, I said it, Hogan was better than Flair then). The first match in 1994 is everything it should have been and one of Hogan's best matches.

 

 

How was the buyrate for the Hogan/Flair strapmatch in 2000?

[Loss]

The same as the buyrate for anything WCW in 2000 - pretty bad. But that happens during periods of decline, like in 2001 when a house show headlined by Austin vs Rock was the first non-sellout at MSG since I think 1996.

[Sean Liska]

Flair/Hogan at SuperBrawl 99 did more buys than Austin-Vince the same month. There was still so much natural emotion there. Then they turned Flair heel and everything went downhill, which is an understated part of WCW's decline - bigger than the Fingerpoke.

[Loss]

The Flair-Hogan double turn is what killed pay-per-view for WCW. They were still doing well until they made that switch.

[Sean Liska]

The Flair-Hogan double turn is what killed pay-per-view for WCW. They were still doing well until they made that switch.

In December 98 they drew like 30,000 for a Nitro at the dome in St Louis. Just a TV shoot! They brought Slamboree there 6 months later, a PPV, and drew 10,000. It's amazing how quickly the bottom fell out. A reason I have so much appreciation for Cena keeping attendance at a certain level for 10 years, it can turn fast.

[Migs]

The match on the Unreleased set between the two is okay but not great. I do think the screw job finishes hurt the WWF matches a lot - Hogan matches are always better when they build to a finish. It feels a little like Flair was trying to plug Hogan into his formula, but Hogan's moveset isn't like Luger or a Road Warrior, because so much of his act was selling to set up the comeback. Flair eventually figured out how to work with him in '94, so I think it's fair to assume he'd have gotten there in '92 if he needed to, but he wasn't there in the matches we have.

[iamthedoctor]

The same as the buyrate for anything WCW in 2000 - pretty bad. But that happens during periods of decline, like in 2001 when a house show headlined by Austin vs Rock was the first non-sellout at MSG since I think 1996.

 

What would you say was their best match? I've always been a fan of the BATB 94 match because it was the first time I had seen a match between the two as the UK never showed the MSG shows on any Home Vid releases.

 

I can't be certain but im pretty sure WCW filmed one of their tour matches because when I used to watch DSF a german channel which was the only way to see all the WCW TV they showed clips of one of the matches in Germany. Hopefully someone else can confirm this as im unsure if the footage aired on US versions.

[BrianB]

The Flair-Hogan double turn is what killed pay-per-view for WCW. They were still doing well until they made that switch.

 

Absolutely. An extremely underrated blunder in the monday night wars. A big turning point.

[iamthedoctor]

 

The Flair-Hogan double turn is what killed pay-per-view for WCW. They were still doing well until they made that switch.

 

Absolutely. An extremely underrated blunder in the monday night wars. A big turning point.

 

 

That match was somewhat confusing in itself. Wasen't there some stip on the cage match and they just changed it during the match?

 

Seeing as Hogan was the Champion it was a bit odd no NWO tried to help Hulk.

[Loss]

 

The same as the buyrate for anything WCW in 2000 - pretty bad. But that happens during periods of decline, like in 2001 when a house show headlined by Austin vs Rock was the first non-sellout at MSG since I think 1996.

 

What would you say was their best match? I've always been a fan of the BATB 94 match because it was the first time I had seen a match between the two as the UK never showed the MSG shows on any Home Vid releases.

 

I can't be certain but im pretty sure WCW filmed one of their tour matches because when I used to watch DSF a german channel which was the only way to see all the WCW TV they showed clips of one of the matches in Germany. Hopefully someone else can confirm this as im unsure if the footage aired on US versions.

 

 

I'd go with their '94 trilogy as their best -- Bash, Clash, and Havoc. All really strong matches.

 

The SuperBrawl IX match was really uniquely good and violent. They were on their way to building an amazing match between legends that lost its way when the booking kicked in, but that match makes me sad. If Flair had won that clean, or even if Hogan won without the David Flair crap, I think it would be their best match. I don't think it would be remembered that way because of problems with WCW during that time, but it would be the kind of match people look back on and are wowed by. I still think that's the case to an extent, but now it feels more like a missed opportunity to have a great match, one where the work was there but the booking wasn't, than a great match.

[El-P]

My review from the WCW Highway to Hell thread :

 

Shit booking match of the night : Hulk Hogan vs Ric Flair. The match itself is pretty good, even then Hogan was working harder than he did in 1995. What's interesting is that he's basically working almost like good old Hulk Hogan here, no chickenshit stuff, no begging, no stalling, just a more agressive and heelish version of his former self. Kinda odd. Flair is coming up very collected and calm, which is a nice touch. So yeah, match is actually good, but the ending reminds me of the infamous match they had in the Fall of 1994, in reverse (well, almost, since Hogan still wins) : stupid post match involving a woman (Torrie Wilson, hot and useless at this point) and a masked man who reveals himself as the closest man to Flair : David !!! More tazer stuff. Man this was getting old. David Flair had no business in the ring at this point, and his involment and stupid turn ruins the ending what should have been a cool grudge match. Another point, don't give me that Horsemen shit about Benoit & Malenko. They were nowhere to be seen here, they didn't jump the ring to defend Flair. Horsemen my ass. And where was Goldberg ? Hey, those guys stole your title, remember ?

[NintendoLogic]

Just to be clear, the double turn was at Uncensored, right?

[El-P]

Yes :

 

Death of WCW match of the week : Ric Flair vs Hulk Hogan Bear with me people, this one is a definite checkpoint in a Death of WCW road. Ric Flair says it's a first blood match. That's news to me. Flair was the babyface until he began to act kinda heelish. Hulk is the super heel. Hogan kinda works like a face. Flair works like a heel. Flair bleeds 5 minutes into the match. Match doesn't stop. Hulk works like a babyface. Hulk wants a pinfall. Referee doesn't count because it's a first blood match. Hulk signals Flair is bleeding. Referee doesn't know what to do. Flair bleeds like a pig after Hulk uses razor wires. Flair uses a foreign object that he *hides in his knee pads*, in a barb wire cage match with a referee who obviously is biased toward him. Hulk hulks up. Remember Hulk has been the super heel who beat the shit of of David then turned him against his father. Flair bleeds like a stuck pig. David Flair and Torrie Wilson showed up. they are heels. Cheering for heel Hogan working as a babyface and getting cheered like crazy. Arn Anderson, babyface who helped babyface horsemen win earlier on, shows up and hits heel David Flair who cheers for heel/babyface Hulk. Arn hits him after spending the last few weeks telling Ric that David was a good kid who was manipulated by heel Hogan (who works face). Babyface Arn passes on a tire iron to heel Flair who beats up heel Hogan acting like a babyface. Ric Flair puts Hogan into a figure four. IN a First Blood match. Referee counts three. In a First Blood match. Crowd is silent. Heel David comes into the ring to check heel/babyface Hogan while heel Flair doesn't get a celebration for winning his 14th World Title and the control of WCW, as he leaves the ring with babyface Arn. THIS IS AWESOME !!!!!!

 

Line of the night : "Well... uh.... are we told this is a First Blood Match ? .... Allright let's just forget about that." Tony Schiavone, dumbfounded.

[iamthedoctor]

 

 

The same as the buyrate for anything WCW in 2000 - pretty bad. But that happens during periods of decline, like in 2001 when a house show headlined by Austin vs Rock was the first non-sellout at MSG since I think 1996.

 

What would you say was their best match? I've always been a fan of the BATB 94 match because it was the first time I had seen a match between the two as the UK never showed the MSG shows on any Home Vid releases.

 

I can't be certain but im pretty sure WCW filmed one of their tour matches because when I used to watch DSF a german channel which was the only way to see all the WCW TV they showed clips of one of the matches in Germany. Hopefully someone else can confirm this as im unsure if the footage aired on US versions.

 

 

I'd go with their '94 trilogy as their best -- Bash, Clash, and Havoc. All really strong matches.

 

The SuperBrawl IX match was really uniquely good and violent. They were on their way to building an amazing match between legends that lost its way when the booking kicked in, but that match makes me sad. If Flair had won that clean, or even if Hogan won without the David Flair crap, I think it would be their best match. I don't think it would be remembered that way because of problems with WCW during that time, but it would be the kind of match people look back on and are wowed by. I still think that's the case to an extent, but now it feels more like a missed opportunity to have a great match, one where the work was there but the booking wasn't, than a great match.

 

 

Why are the WWF ones looked down upon saying they didn't jell like they hoped so Mania got cancelled? Or did 2 years later make everything work out better. For me I loved the Beach & Halloween matches in 1994 they were awesome.

 

Superbrawl was a good match and yeah I agree without the BS David Flair thing probably would have done better, still no reason why Hulk couldn't wrestle like a face and be aggressive like a heel I mean ive seen Rock & Austin do it while faces. An asskicker Face Hogan would be great, yeah WCW had problems a year later when Russo took over getting rid of the Legends while in the process making himself and the heels the top dog which I absolutely dispised. Least the Heel NWO group there was a point.

[MoS]

Death of WCW match of the week : Ric Flair vs Hulk Hogan Bear with me people, this one is a definite checkpoint in a Death of WCW road. Ric Flair says it's a first blood match. That's news to me. Flair was the babyface until he began to act kinda heelish. Hulk is the super heel. Hogan kinda works like a face. Flair works like a heel. Flair bleeds 5 minutes into the match. Match doesn't stop. Hulk works like a babyface. Hulk wants a pinfall. Referee doesn't count because it's a first blood match. Hulk signals Flair is bleeding. Referee doesn't know what to do. Flair bleeds like a pig after Hulk uses razor wires. Flair uses a foreign object that he *hides in his knee pads*, in a barb wire cage match with a referee who obviously is biased toward him. Hulk hulks up. Remember Hulk has been the super heel who beat the shit of of David then turned him against his father. Flair bleeds like a stuck pig. David Flair and Torrie Wilson showed up. they are heels. Cheering for heel Hogan working as a babyface and getting cheered like crazy. Arn Anderson, babyface who helped babyface horsemen win earlier on, shows up and hits heel David Flair who cheers for heel/babyface Hulk. Arn hits him after spending the last few weeks telling Ric that David was a good kid who was manipulated by heel Hogan (who works face). Babyface Arn passes on a tire iron to heel Flair who beats up heel Hogan acting like a babyface. Ric Flair puts Hogan into a figure four. IN a First Blood match. Referee counts three. In a First Blood match. Crowd is silent. Heel David comes into the ring to check heel/babyface Hogan while heel Flair doesn't get a celebration for winning his 14th World Title and the control of WCW, as he leaves the ring with babyface Arn. THIS IS AWESOME !!!!!!

 

Line of the night : "Well... uh.... are we told this is a First Blood Match ? .... Allright let's just forget about that." Tony Schiavone, dumbfounded.

 

Yeah I think this was definitely a major checkpoint in the Death of WCW road. As mentioned before, he match drew a good buyrate during WM season against a molten-hot Austin-McMahon match, only for this shit to happen. I think most fans realised after this that WCW would keep pissing on them and were really not worth the money or the loyalty.

[Flyin' Brian]

Yes :

 

Death of WCW match of the week : Ric Flair vs Hulk Hogan Bear with me people, this one is a definite checkpoint in a Death of WCW road. Ric Flair says it's a first blood match. That's news to me. Flair was the babyface until he began to act kinda heelish. Hulk is the super heel. Hogan kinda works like a face. Flair works like a heel. Flair bleeds 5 minutes into the match. Match doesn't stop. Hulk works like a babyface. Hulk wants a pinfall. Referee doesn't count because it's a first blood match. Hulk signals Flair is bleeding. Referee doesn't know what to do. Flair bleeds like a pig after Hulk uses razor wires. Flair uses a foreign object that he *hides in his knee pads*, in a barb wire cage match with a referee who obviously is biased toward him. Hulk hulks up. Remember Hulk has been the super heel who beat the shit of of David then turned him against his father. Flair bleeds like a stuck pig. David Flair and Torrie Wilson showed up. they are heels. Cheering for heel Hogan working as a babyface and getting cheered like crazy. Arn Anderson, babyface who helped babyface horsemen win earlier on, shows up and hits heel David Flair who cheers for heel/babyface Hulk. Arn hits him after spending the last few weeks telling Ric that David was a good kid who was manipulated by heel Hogan (who works face). Babyface Arn passes on a tire iron to heel Flair who beats up heel Hogan acting like a babyface. Ric Flair puts Hogan into a figure four. IN a First Blood match. Referee counts three. In a First Blood match. Crowd is silent. Heel David comes into the ring to check heel/babyface Hogan while heel Flair doesn't get a celebration for winning his 14th World Title and the control of WCW, as he leaves the ring with babyface Arn. THIS IS AWESOME !!!!!!

 

Line of the night : "Well... uh.... are we told this is a First Blood Match ? .... Allright let's just forget about that." Tony Schiavone, dumbfounded.

 

I watched this match live on PPV and bought the tape years later and watched it again. I was dumbfounded both times. It made no sense and it still makes no sense. What were they thinking?

[The Thread Killer]

If rumor and innuendo are to be believed, Flair has to take a lot of the heat for that. Apparently he was the one who was campaigning heavily behind the scenes to turn heel, as he supposedly preferred working heel and thought he had one good run left as a heel against face Hogan. I don't think he quite understood that people just didn't want to boo him, and they weren't going to do it, regardless of what he did.

 

It actually brings up an interesting point about Flair as a person. He himself has admitted in many interviews that he has suffered from a lack of self awareness and confidence at times, believe it or not. He claimed that when he returned to the WWF in 2001 he didn't want to wrestle and he didn't think anybody would want to see him wrestle. I've seen it talked about in more than one interview that it was the Undertaker who pitched working with Flair at Wrestlemania 18 and Flair couldn't understand why Taker would want to work with him. Triple H said in one interview that he had to sit Ric Flair down when he was pitching the idea of Evolution and "remind him that he was Ric Flair."

 

The fact that Flair wanted to turn heel against Hogan bears that theory out, in a way. It seems that he didn't quite get how people perceive him, which is crazy when you think about it, considering how people are constantly naming him as the GOAT. You'd think he'd actually believe that people think that, even if he himself didn't necessarily agree with them.

[Hawkeye12]

The two big houses WCW did in Chicago and Detroit both came after the double turn, so I don't think it was that, as much as injuries (and Goldberg holding out for a bit and Bret being gone after Owen died) that dug the hole they couldn't get back out of. Both guys were really over the next month after the turn, and the heat for the Hogan/Nash vs Flair/Goldberg match on Nitro the following night was one of the last memories that felt like a huge deal, but I don't remember what RAW ran against it. Being a couple weeks before WM15 I'm sure it was huge as well.

[Loss]

What houses were those, and when did tickets go on sale? Not disagreeing, just trying to establish a timeline.

 

I like the two MSG matches Hogan and Flair had in late '91, so I'm not down on their WWF series. I just think their WCW series was better. I don't think either series treated Flair as an equal. He needed to be presented as if he was for it to work at its full potential, even though in reality, as a star, there was obviously more than a little daylight. Still, WCW presented him as more of someone on equal footing and presented the match as more of a big deal instead of just as Hogan's latest challenger. I think the WWF tried in some ways to do it as more than that and wanted it to be more than that, but they just couldn't jump out of their own bubble. And by 1991, I don't really fault them for that too much.

[Hawkeye12]

They were March 19th and 27th, so I'm sure tickets went on sale beforehand, but IIRC they were two highly successful gates during a successful tour with Hogan-Flair on top (Milwaukee was in there as well). The Auburn Hills show drew 13K, can't find an attendance for the Chicago show but I remember the live reviews were pretty good at the time as the crowd was eating up babyface Hogan and booing Flair like a real heel should be booed. So the double turn worked with the live crowds it had a chance to play too. Then Hogan left for surgery a month later, and DDP got turned heel when he won the belt, so plans went awry pretty quickly by the end of April. Before you could blink, Hogan, Goldberg, and Hart (they'd set up the big angle on Leno with Nash but Owen died the night before it was to happen) were gone for various reasons, and Savage, Sid, and Rick Steiner were the top heels.

[Sean Liska]

They were March 19th and 27th, so I'm sure tickets went on sale beforehand, but IIRC they were two highly successful gates during a successful tour with Hogan-Flair on top (Milwaukee was in there as well). The Auburn Hills show drew 13K, can't find an attendance for the Chicago show but I remember the live reviews were pretty good at the time as the crowd was eating up babyface Hogan and booing Flair like a real heel should be booed. So the double turn worked with the live crowds it had a chance to play too. Then Hogan left for surgery a month later, and DDP got turned heel when he won the belt, so plans went awry pretty quickly by the end of April. Before you could blink, Hogan, Goldberg, and Hart (they'd set up the big angle on Leno with Nash but Owen died the night before it was to happen) were gone for various reasons, and Savage, Sid, and Rick Steiner were the top heels.

That's an interesting counter to what I've always thought. I'll have to look at that. I do think TV ratings started declining pretty sharply after the double turn but again I'd have to check old Observers.