Wrestlers who are BOTH Overrated and Underrated

[Microstatistics]

Branching of the most Underrated Thread. Which wrestlers are both overpraised and unfairly criticized, depending on the circle of fans? Some picks:

 

Naoya Ogawa

Shawn Michaels

Kurt Angle

Hiroshi Tanahashi

Nobuhiko Takada

Shinobu Kandori

Yoshinari Ogawa

Chris Jericho

Antonio Inoki

Dynamite Kid

Kazuchika Okada

Kazunari Murakami

[Migs]

The Young Bucks.

[shodate]

i never heard anyone rate Either Ogawa they are both underrated

 

Murakami is underrated cuse his ties to the dark time of New Japan but he was never a bad worker

 

i dislike HBK cause of poor technique his execution is fine but his technique is poor

 

 

most of my underrated guys are not rated altogether

[gordi]

Great idea for a thread!

 

Tiger Mask - a lot of pro wrestling hipsters are still caught up in the backlash negative opinions of his work... but a lot of Japanese men of my generation consider him the greatest ever.

 

Fujiwara - "mainstream" fans barely know who he is... but to the Segunda Caida crowd he is a shining golden god who can do no wrong.

 

Taue - it's so unfair that people always rank him as clearly the worst of the Four Pillars.... but it's also insane that some hipsters try to act like he Is better than Kobashi or Misawa.

[superkix]

Kengo Mashimo, although I think the period of him being considered overrated has largely passed.

[EricR]

Brock Lesnar

[joeg]

Naoya Ogawa is a good one. I'm a big Ogawa fan but I once had a guy on another board try and convince me that he was the greatest rookie of all time. He went as far as to say Ogawa was a more natural talent than Kobashi or Nakamura, and he was being dead serious.

[NintendoLogic]

Taue - it's so unfair that people always rank him as clearly the worst of the Four Pillars.... but it's also insane that some hipsters try to act like he Is better than Kobashi or Misawa.

 

He was clearly the worst of the Four Corners, though. But that's no insult when the other three are the greatest of all time.

 

That aside, this is a good pick. On the one hand, Taue was a part of enough classic matches over a long period of time with a wide variety of opponents that he can safely be considered actively great rather than just along for the ride. On the other hand, you've got some people claiming that he was better than Kobashi, which is insane.

[Loss]

Shawn Michaels really feels like the biggest example. The praise is way over the top, but some of the criticism (not all of it) is too.

[shodate]

Shawn Michaels really feels like the biggest example. The praise is way over the top, but some of the criticism (not all of it) is too.

I agree with 1/2 of this i think he is way overpraised minus the GWE casts here I have never seen or read Criticisms of him in ring his backstage stuff yes, by fan he Idolized in every Major FB wrestling group iv ever been a part of every time I try to Criisizse him. i was the only deceting voice so i fail to see how he is underrated.

 

i know this is anecdotal but

 

Great idea for a thread!

 

Tiger Mask - a lot of pro wrestling hipsters are still caught up in the backlash negative opinions of his work... but a lot of Japanese men of my generation consider him the greatest ever.

 

Fujiwara - "mainstream" fans barely know who he is... but to the Segunda Caida crowd he is a shining golden god who can do no wrong.

 

Taue - it's so unfair that people always rank him as clearly the worst of the Four Pillars.... but it's also insane that some hipsters try to act like he Is better than Kobashi or Misawa.

 

Fujiawra is very good pick here he is so underrated

[Microstatistics]

Honestly not trying to be a hipster or contrarian here but I'd rate Taue above Misawa and Kawada. When all of them were at their athletic peak (let's say 1995), I can buy him being the clear #4 but during the Jumbo and co vs. Misawa and co feud, he was the best of the 4 and after 1996 or so, he was always on point whenever he showed up while Misawa and Kawada were really hit or miss. Also he has gems outside the usual circle like the Hansen classic from 94 or the Nagata match that the other two simply don't for me (excluding the 10/95 Albright wonder). But I can see why people might think me or someone else is rating him too highly so he is a good pick for this thread. Kobashi smokes them all though.

[shodate]

 

Honestly not trying to be a hipster or contrarian here but I'd rate Taue above Misawa and Kawada. When all of them were at their athletic peak (let's say 1995), I can buy him being the clear #4 but during the Jumbo and co vs. Misawa and co feud, he was the best of the 4 and after 1996 or so, he was always on point whenever he showed up while Misawa and Kawada were really hit or miss. Also he has gems outside the usual circle like the Hansen classic from 94 or the Nagata match that the other two simply don't for me (excluding the 10/95 Albright wonder). But I can see why people might think me or someone else is rating him too highly so he is a good pick for this thread. Kobashi smokes them all though.

 

 

that is not a common view people would say that in the 1990's Misawa was better. im more in the Kawada was best in the ring in the 1990's but post-Noah split Misawa and Kobashi became better and Taue i Like the most but taking an objective view or as Objective as wrestling can be Taue was the worst in the ring

[Microstatistics]

 

 

Honestly not trying to be a hipster or contrarian here but I'd rate Taue above Misawa and Kawada. When all of them were at their athletic peak (let's say 1995), I can buy him being the clear #4 but during the Jumbo and co vs. Misawa and co feud, he was the best of the 4 and after 1996 or so, he was always on point whenever he showed up while Misawa and Kawada were really hit or miss. Also he has gems outside the usual circle like the Hansen classic from 94 or the Nagata match that the other two simply don't for me (excluding the 10/95 Albright wonder). But I can see why people might think me or someone else is rating him too highly so he is a good pick for this thread. Kobashi smokes them all though.

 

 

that is not a common view people would say that in the 1990's Misawa was better. im more in the Kawada was best in the ring in the 1990's but post-Noah split Misawa and Kobashi became better and Taue i Like the most but taking an objective view or as Objective as wrestling can be Taue was the worst in the ring

 

 

Yes, I am aware that's not a common view. That's sort of the point here.

 

 

i never heard anyone rate Either Ogawa they are both underrated

 

Murakami is underrated cuse his ties to the dark time of New Japan but he was never a bad worker

 

i dislike HBK cause of poor technique his execution is fine but his technique is poor

 

 

most of my underrated guys are not rated altogether

 

 

 

 

Shawn Michaels really feels like the biggest example. The praise is way over the top, but some of the criticism (not all of it) is too.

I agree with 1/2 of this i think he is way overpraised minus the GWE casts here I have never seen or read Criticisms of him in ring his backstage stuff yes, by fan he Idolized in every Major FB wrestling group iv ever been a part of every time I try to Criisizse him. i was the only deceting voice so i fail to see how he is underrated.

 

i know this is anecdotal but

 

 

 

Great idea for a thread!

 

Tiger Mask - a lot of pro wrestling hipsters are still caught up in the backlash negative opinions of his work... but a lot of Japanese men of my generation consider him the greatest ever.

 

Fujiwara - "mainstream" fans barely know who he is... but to the Segunda Caida crowd he is a shining golden god who can do no wrong.

 

Taue - it's so unfair that people always rank him as clearly the worst of the Four Pillars.... but it's also insane that some hipsters try to act like he Is better than Kobashi or Misawa.

 

Fujiawra is very good pick here he is so underrated

 

 

 

No offense shodate but did you even read the topic of the thread? It's wrestlers who are overrated in one community and underrated in another. Michaels fits that perfectly (criticized way too unfairly here hence underrated) but praised as undisputed GOAT elsewhere (hence overrated). The Ogawas are rated here (a little too highly IMO hence overrated). Plus your Fujiwara pick support doesn't make sense, what about the overrated part?

[fxnj]

Where is Inoki overrated? Almost all I've seen written on him in the last decade boils down to people bitching about him booking himself as ace or people who don't get matwork shitting on his matwork. Even amongst people who haven't seen much of him, his reputation doesn't seem great with many newer fans buying into the narrative of his time with the promotion as some sort of dark age.

 

John Cena seems like a good pick. Though the consensus seems to have changed, for the longest time he was hated by large sections of WWE fans who convinced himself he was shit and refused to give his matches a fair chance. On the other hand, I'm not a fan of his newer output and even find a lot of the praise for big matches from his storied 2007 run like Cena/Umaga and Cena/Khali hyperbolic.

 

Rey Mysterio is another guy. Definitely didn't deserve to get shit on by Attitude Era fans, but him finishing in the top 10 and above Kobashi in the GWE is way too damn high.

[iamthedoctor]

Shawn Michaels really feels like the biggest example. The praise is way over the top, but some of the criticism (not all of it) is too.

 

I deffinately agree with this. I like Shawn but Vince bigs him up a bit too much, if I was going to call someone Mr. Wrestlemania Id say Taker because of his win loss WM record.

[shodate]

 

 

 

Honestly not trying to be a hipster or contrarian here but I'd rate Taue above Misawa and Kawada. When all of them were at their athletic peak (let's say 1995), I can buy him being the clear #4 but during the Jumbo and co vs. Misawa and co feud, he was the best of the 4 and after 1996 or so, he was always on point whenever he showed up while Misawa and Kawada were really hit or miss. Also he has gems outside the usual circle like the Hansen classic from 94 or the Nagata match that the other two simply don't for me (excluding the 10/95 Albright wonder). But I can see why people might think me or someone else is rating him too highly so he is a good pick for this thread. Kobashi smokes them all though.

 

 

that is not a common view people would say that in the 1990's Misawa was better. im more in the Kawada was best in the ring in the 1990's but post-Noah split Misawa and Kobashi became better and Taue i Like the most but taking an objective view or as Objective as wrestling can be Taue was the worst in the ring

 

 

Yes, I am aware that's not a common view. That's sort of the point here.

 

 

i never heard anyone rate Either Ogawa they are both underrated

 

Murakami is underrated cuse his ties to the dark time of New Japan but he was never a bad worker

 

i dislike HBK cause of poor technique his execution is fine but his technique is poor

 

 

most of my underrated guys are not rated altogether

 

 

 

 

Shawn Michaels really feels like the biggest example. The praise is way over the top, but some of the criticism (not all of it) is too.

I agree with 1/2 of this i think he is way overpraised minus the GWE casts here I have never seen or read Criticisms of him in ring his backstage stuff yes, by fan he Idolized in every Major FB wrestling group iv ever been a part of every time I try to Criisizse him. i was the only deceting voice so i fail to see how he is underrated.

 

i know this is anecdotal but

 

 

 

Great idea for a thread!

 

Tiger Mask - a lot of pro wrestling hipsters are still caught up in the backlash negative opinions of his work... but a lot of Japanese men of my generation consider him the greatest ever.

 

Fujiwara - "mainstream" fans barely know who he is... but to the Segunda Caida crowd he is a shining golden god who can do no wrong.

 

Taue - it's so unfair that people always rank him as clearly the worst of the Four Pillars.... but it's also insane that some hipsters try to act like he Is better than Kobashi or Misawa.

 

Fujiawra is very good pick here he is so underrated

 

 

 

No offense shodate but did you even read the topic of the thread? It's wrestlers who are overrated in one community and underrated in another. Michaels fits that perfectly (criticized way too unfairly here hence underrated) but praised as undisputed GOAT elsewhere (hence overrated). The Ogawas are rated here (a little too highly IMO hence overrated). Plus your Fujiwara pick support doesn't make sense, what about the overrated part?

 

Fujiwara may be overrated by people who hold my ideals of wrestling same for people like Tamura or Volk Han are while no causal will ever like any of them and will call that boring and untalented, while Techniqueohphiles will love them and rate them highly if not as high as the micronism within the micronism would rate them Rey Jr is not a better worker than any og the three above mentioned workers as an example. [ read this as me calling rey jr overrated as well the defence of my view on Fujiwara

 

HBK is nigh on Univseallly Praised based on what i have read or heard of him i have never seen outright Criticisms of him as performer minus his backstage Histronics with a huge amount of fans calling him the best of all time

 

as much as a have grown to like PWO we are such a small microcosm of the wrestling fanbase as i wager post-comeback HBK was not enjoyed here per say.

 

when i debate in other places about HBK using the way i see wrestling and workers as by debate point to say he was never that top level of a worker

 

i just get one of three reply

1 Your Judging wrestling wrong [ this is condescending a and Relevaistic view ]

2 Overselling is good

3 Techqinue and execution is not important

 

When 99% of the fanbase put him so highly with only small amounts of dissenting voices exist would not call him underrated based of purely anecdotal evidence based on past debates I have on the subject of that Worker.

 

 

 

i see HBK how FXNJ sees Inoki but on the opposite side of it.

[Matt D]

My argument for Taue in 2018:

 

In practice, his weakness was a strength. In practice, their strength became a weakness. My biggest criticism of the mid-90s AJPW classics is excess. Taue's physical limitations acted as a necessary drag upon them, grounded them.

 

That sounds like an unintended consequence of a negative attribute but Taue worked wisely to the very edge of his limitations while the other three always had the power to limit themselves for the good of the match (and future matches) and simply chose not to.

 

I'm not necessarily saying that he's better than them, but I will say that they're far better off with him than on their own.

[El-P]

My argument for Taue in 2018:

 

In practice, his weakness was a strength. In practice, their strength became a weakness. My biggest criticism of the mid-90s AJPW classics is excess. Taue's physical limitations acted as a necessary drag upon them, grounded them.

 

That sounds like an unintended consequence of a negative attribute but Taue worked wisely to the very edge of his limitations while the other three always had the power to limit themselves for the good of the match (and future matches) and simply chose not to.

 

Why would they ? They established a style which was based on escalation (as opposed to excess, really, although one could argue that at some point the escalation reached the excess point). They had no reason to limit themselves since the whole style was about pushing the limits of what it took to keep the other guy down. I just watched Misawa vs Kobashi from 2003 and to me it's the apex (and probably the breaking point) of a style. It is wonderful and it's not simply about doing big spots, there are shitloads of details there.

 

But that doesn't mean Kobashi, for instance, could only work that way. Following the Misawa match, Kobashi got the best match ever out of Tamon Honda but working around his own style (and limitations). Then he worked against Chono, who was washed up beyond belief and still managed to get a Tokyo Dome spectacle out of him (not a great match, because Chono simply wasn't able to, but a good match that made sense, mostly). Neither of these two matches were build around excess, although very clearly rooted in Kobashi's style, and found a way to include his signature bumps (aka headropping) too.

 

Taue's style "grounded" the other three ? Sure. But would have Taue's limitations worked that well against inferior opponents ? Would he have been (an active) part of so many all-time cassics if not surrounded by three of the all-time greats ? Most probably not. And I love Taue and think he was a terrific worker. The merit of Taue to me is not "working within his limitations", on the contrary, when you look at the guy and what he was actually physically doing, he clearly pushed his own limitations to reach for the other three. From there he established his own awkward looking yet awe inspiring at times style. Taue maybe the the greatest overachiever ever.

[Matt D]

If you look at my specific word choice, I'm not sure we disagree heavily on your last paragraph.

 

Even with the rest, I'm trying to say something fairly specific.

[El-P]

Probably not, indeed.

[shodate]

 

My argument for Taue in 2018:

 

In practice, his weakness was a strength. In practice, their strength became a weakness. My biggest criticism of the mid-90s AJPW classics is excess. Taue's physical limitations acted as a necessary drag upon them, grounded them.

 

That sounds like an unintended consequence of a negative attribute but Taue worked wisely to the very edge of his limitations while the other three always had the power to limit themselves for the good of the match (and future matches) and simply chose not to.

 

Why would they ? They established a style which was based on escalation (as opposed to excess, really, although one could argue that at some point the escalation reached the excess point). They had no reason to limit themselves since the whole style was about pushing the limits of what it took to keep the other guy down. I just watched Misawa vs Kobashi from 2003 and to me it's the apex (and probably the breaking point) of a style. It is wonderful and it's not simply about doing big spots, there are shitloads of details there.

 

But that doesn't mean Kobashi, for instance, could only work that way. Following the Misawa match, Kobashi got the best match ever out of Tamon Honda but working around his own style (and limitations). Then he worked against Chono, who was washed up beyond belief and still managed to get a Tokyo Dome spectacle out of him (not a great match, because Chono simply wasn't able to, but a good match that made sense, mostly). Neither of these two matches were build around excess, although very clearly rooted in Kobashi's style, and found a way to include his signature bumps (aka headropping) too.

 

Taue's style "grounded" the other three ? Sure. But would have Taue's limitations worked that well against inferior opponents ? Would he have been (an active) part of so many all-time cassics if not surrounded by three of the all-time greats ? Most probably not. And I love Taue and think he was a terrific worker. The merit of Taue to me is not "working within his limitations", on the contrary, when you look at the guy and what he was actually physically doing, he clearly pushed his own limitations to reach for the other three. From there he established his own awkward looking yet awe inspiring at times style. Taue maybe the the greatest overachiever ever.

 

Could not have said it better myself

[iamthedoctor]

Would Ric Flair have a case of both of these categories?

 

I know some fans find him over but I think some matches hes had are quite underrated. I can't think of any off the top of my head but im sure if you delved into his career there would be a few.

[Mad Dog]

Would Ric Flair have a case of both of these categories?

 

I know some fans find him over but I think some matches hes had are quite underrated. I can't think of any off the top of my head but im sure if you delved into his career there would be a few.

 

He would for underrated but I don't think it's possible to overrate him.

[Mrzfn]

 

Would Ric Flair have a case of both of these categories?

 

I know some fans find him over but I think some matches hes had are quite underrated. I can't think of any off the top of my head but im sure if you delved into his career there would be a few.

 

He would for underrated but I don't think it's possible to overrate him.

 

 

Watch this:

 

In the 00s, he was still better than 3/4ths of the WWE roster!

 

[Mad Dog]

 

 

Would Ric Flair have a case of both of these categories?

 

I know some fans find him over but I think some matches hes had are quite underrated. I can't think of any off the top of my head but im sure if you delved into his career there would be a few.

 

He would for underrated but I don't think it's possible to overrate him.

 

 

Watch this:

 

In the 00s, he was still better than 3/4ths of the WWE roster!

 

 

 

Okay, that's overrating him. I meant historically I don't think you can overrate him.