All Elite Wrestling

[C.S.]

7 hours ago, El-P said:

You mean like Eddie Carpentier and Antonino Rocca ? Yeah, agreed. Those guys are ruining the business, their stuff looks ridiculous and contrived. Pro-wrestling was so much better before the war, honestly. Now it's all gymnastics and stupid comedy. Hell, even that Lou Thesz guy is doing too much goofy maneurisms that totally kills his supposed credibility, he's good technically but he acts like a clown too much at times, it's impossible to maintain suspension of disbelief. By that rate, in a few years people are gonna kick out of bodyslams, totally exposing the business. Pro-wrestling is a dying art, I'm telling you. 

Incredible posts like this are why it's tragic that the "like" button was removed from this forum and never worked in the first place. My reply adds zero to the conversation - several "likes" would have punctuated the point much more effectively - but I wanted to give you props for this laugh-out-loud gem of a response!

[El-P]

16 minutes ago, C.S. said:

I wanted to give you props for this laugh-out-loud gem of a response!

Thanks ! 

[Timbo Slice]

I just think it’s funny The Elite get to skate on the outside when they literally were involved with all the drama. 
 

I don’t have a dog in this fight other than folks needing to act like adults, but to think the Elite have clean hands with all this is comical too. 

[The Thread Killer]

1 hour ago, sek69 said:

You know, I really don't blame the Bucks for telling him to GFY after he shit all over them publicly. Yes you can argue that it would be good business and make money, but at the same time the Bucks aren't obligated to work with someone who clearly had so little respect for them not only as co-workers but as office in the company he works for. 

Quite honestly…aside from the rumoured “dream” Trios match of Punk & FTR vs. The Elite…how much would The Bucks have to interact with Punk anyhow? Even if they don’t want to work with him, it honestly wouldn’t be a big loss. I know when he first came in, long before “The Incident” Punk had said he would have loved to work a Tag Match with Danielson as his partner against The Bucks, but fact is the money would be in Kenny vs. Punk. If Punk comes back and that match doesn’t happen…now that would be a shame. And I don’t even really like Kenny.

[Matt D]

I'm just glad I'm not going to have to write up a bunch of Elite matches for Segunda Caida, honestly.

[The Thread Killer]

17 minutes ago, Timbo Slice said:

I just think it’s funny The Elite get to skate on the outside when they literally were involved with all the drama. 
 

I don’t have a dog in this fight other than folks needing to act like adults, but to think the Elite have clean hands with all this is comical too. 

For whatever reason, there seems to be a somewhat large, very vocal group of fans (especially on Twitter) who just can’t seem to wrap their heads around the fact that there is plenty of blame to go around in this situation, and want to lay it all at Punk’s feet (with a bunch of additional blame directed at FTR, which is quite a feat considering they weren’t even in the building when the fight happened.)

Let’s be real. Punk is a loudmouth, malcontent asshole for doing what he did at that press conference. If you want to make the argument that he deserved to be suspended, or maybe even fired for that, you would get no argument from me. But Kenny and The Bucks are also responsible for the fallout. Even if you want to throw out all of the “reporting” that was done about the incident afterwards as biased, consider this…

Tony Khan clearly views disciplining his Locker Room the same way that Wesley Snipes views paying his taxes. But even the almighty TK thought that The Elite deserved to be suspended for three months after that fight. That should tell anybody all you need to know about there being more to this story than just Punk being an asshole.

I freaking hate tribalism. I don’t understand why so called “smart fans” can’t admit when one of their favourites does something stupid. Hell, I love FTR to death, but that doesn’t mean I don’t think Dax shouldn’t cancel his podcast and shut his damn piehole.

[Jmare007]

58 minutes ago, Matt D said:

I'm just glad I'm not going to have to write up a bunch of Elite matches for Segunda Caida, honestly.

Well, they are in a feud with Danielson soo....

[Embrodak]

9 hours ago, El-P said:

You mean like Eddie Carpentier and Antonino Rocca ? Yeah, agreed. Those guys are ruining the business, their stuff looks ridiculous and contrived. Pro-wrestling was so much better before the war, honestly. Now it's all gymnastics and stupid comedy. Hell, even that Lou Thesz guy is doing too much goofy maneurisms that totally kills his supposed credibility, he's good technically but he acts like a clown too much at times, it's impossible to maintain suspension of disbelief. By that rate, in a few years people are gonna kick out of bodyslams, totally exposing the business. Pro-wrestling is a dying art, I'm telling you. 

I’m not a Hegel guy, but the quantity turning into quality aspect of the dialectic applies here.

[sek69]

The Elite are not innocent, but there seems to be the idea that both sides are equally in the wrong. Just from what we saw on TV and not what may have happened behind the scenes, Punk shot on Hangman and then went on his infamous unprofessional rant after the PPV. Should have the Elite handled it better? Absolutely, but you can't keep egging people on and then say it's their fault when they snap out on you. 

IMO if I was TK, I would have given the Elite the suspension they got and fired Punk (after making sure he was covered for any medical bills he had from his injury). That way the message is sent that neither behavior was acceptable but one was on a different level from the other. 

[Embrodak]

If TK had fired Punk, I guarantee Punk would have sued and created a huge clusterfuck. Not worth it for anyone involved tbh.

[The Thread Killer]

I would guess there are a few reasons Tony Khan didn’t fire Punk.

Firstly, I think it’s a pretty safe bet that TK would have ended up having to eat a big chunk of Punk’s seven figure contract if he fired him, which probably wasn’t very palatable from a business standpoint.

Second was the aforementioned injury. From a legal standpoint, it’s probably pretty hard to fire a guy who just tore a muscle working for you, just after he basically rushed back from a different injury.

We all love to paint Vince McMahon as the ruthless businessman and Tony Khan as the friend to all Pro Wrestlers, and that’s probably true to a large degree…but I think a lot of times people forget that the Khan family are actually more successful in the business world than Vince ever was. Point being, you don’t get “Khan level” rich by signing guys to million dollar contracts and then firing them. I just have to believe that at some point, on some very basic level, Tony Khan would like a return on his investment. He sunk a ton of money, time and effort into signing Punk and that investment was really just starting to pay off when all this shit went down.

Thirdly, I think maybe Khan didn’t just out-and-out fire Punk because he was afraid of the backlash both from his locker room and from the fans. I know a lot of hardcore fans and a lot of so-called “journalists” have painted it like pretty much 99% of the locker room does not want Punk back. None of us can know how true that really is. There have been a few notable names who have gone on record saying they like the guy. Of course FTR. But also Wardlow, Hobbs, Starks and even Danhausen. And trust me, speaking up in the AEW locker room, and saying that you actually like Punk is probably a good way to commit career suicide there. I bet there are more people that like him, that haven’t said anything out of self preservation. I bet Tony Khan was worried about pissing off a chunk of his talent if he just fired the guy, instead of fining or suspending him.

As I mentioned earlier, there is a very loud contingent of AEW/Elite fans who appear to despise Punk and FTR, and they are VERY vocal about that. And I really don’t know what kind of response Punk would get if he came back. But I consider the fact that FTR get a shit-ton of hate online, but from where I sit they seem to be one of the most popular acts in the company. They may have cooled off a little bit now, but not that long ago they were white hot and were getting some of the most vocal reactions from the fans that I have heard in a long time. I don’t know if anybody remembers that segment a couple of months ago where The Young Bucks were cutting a promo, and the fans started chanting FTR, even though the segment and promo had nothing to do with them? I doubt Tony missed that.

The final and most important point is that I think at his root Tony Khan is a wrestling fan first and foremost. I am betting he probably wanted to try and work this thing out, and not fire Punk because he thinks keeping him around could result in some excellent angles and matches, and in the end that’s probably what he wants most. But there sure do seem to be a whole hell of a lot of forces conspiring to try and stop that from happening. On all sides.
 

[The Man in Blak]

I actually think Jericho makes a ton of sense as Punk's first opponent in for all parties involved - the fans are going to want a proxy war for Brawl Out anyway, so it makes more sense for Jericho to play that role opposite of Punk, especially when AEW is already spending a lot of time and energy trying to distance the Elite from all of that. (See also: AEW All Access.)

I just...don't know where you go after that. It feels silly to me that you would bring Punk back and not have a plan set up for Punk/Elite -- it will cast a shadow over everything, "soft" roster split or not -- but it's also silly to me that TK didn't have a real plan to handle the Punk/Cabana situation when he brought Punk in either.

[El-P]

My predictions are as follow :

Punk vs Jericho match will have some Bret Hart sequences reproduced in a sloppy way

Jericho will put CM Punk over

PWO will complain about Chris Jericho

Punk will make a snide remark about something unrelated in a promo

FTR will beat some JAS guys

Dax Harwood will tweet about how much he loves working with JAS

PWO will complain about Chris Jericho

CM Punk will reveal that he's hurt but coming back soon

Dax Harwood will make cryptic complaint about Dave Meltzer

Chris Jericho will put over Dax Harwood in a singles match

PWO will call Chris Jericho a carny

CM Punk will comeback and get hurt again while trying to do a figure four around the post

PWO will complain about Chris Jericho

CM Punk's contract won't get renewed 

Dax Harwood is gonna whine about it on his podcast

PWO will call Chris Jericho a piece of shit

[The Thread Killer]

1 hour ago, The Man in Blak said:

I actually think Jericho makes a ton of sense as Punk's first opponent in for all parties involved

My main concern regarding Punk/Jericho is mostly centred around the quality of the actual match once they get it in the ring. The last Jericho match I remember thinking was really high quality was the PPV match with Eddie Kingston. I can deal with Jericho’s tired hipster act in a buildup, because if he tried to get shooty on Punk during a promo, Punk would eat his lunch. But Jericho is just too damn slow lately. I was especially disappointed with the match he had with Claudio at the ROH PPV a few months ago. that trilogy of matches with Danielson didn’t do a whole lot for me either, especially that one where he brought back his “Lionheart” character and spent most of the match trying to pull his pants up. He’s breaking down and Punk is breaking down and I honestly don’t know that they could pull off a decent match at this point.

[Matt D]

2 hours ago, Jmare007 said:

Well, they are in a feud with Danielson soo....

Slim J is the new fifth finger.

[The Man in Blak]

11 minutes ago, The Thread Killer said:

My main concern regarding Punk/Jericho is mostly centred around the quality of the actual match once they get it in the ring. The last Jericho match I remember thinking was really high quality was the PPV match with Eddie Kingston. I can deal with Jericho’s tired hipster act in a buildup, because if he tried to get shooty on Punk during a promo, Punk would eat his lunch. But Jericho is just too damn slow lately. I was especially disappointed with the match he had with Claudio at the ROH PPV a few months ago. that trilogy of matches with Danielson didn’t do a whole lot for me either, especially that one where he spent most of the match, trying to pull his pants up. He’s breaking down and Punk is breaking down and I honestly don’t know that they could pull off a decent match at this point.

Oh, rest assured, a Punk/Jericho match in 2023 is going to be a slog. It felt like they feuded for a lifetime in WWE without anything approaching a good match and that was over a decade ago.

[strobogo]

What if

 

The Young Bucks vs CM Punk and....Colt Cabana

[Embrodak]

If you want to have the weights even put it should be Punk and Larry.

[Dav'oh]

16 hours ago, El-P said:

You mean like Eddie Carpentier and Antonino Rocca ? Yeah, agreed. Those guys are ruining the business, their stuff looks ridiculous and contrived. Pro-wrestling was so much better before the war, honestly. Now it's all gymnastics and stupid comedy. Hell, even that Lou Thesz guy is doing too much goofy maneurisms that totally kills his supposed credibility, he's good technically but he acts like a clown too much at times, it's impossible to maintain suspension of disbelief. By that rate, in a few years people are gonna kick out of bodyslams, totally exposing the business. Pro-wrestling is a dying art, I'm telling you. 

Uber condescension aside , I fail to see the relevance. 

I think Komander's stuff looks like shit, in 2023. No-one here said he was ruining the business, but anyway. So what if people thought Londos or Ricki Starr or Rocca were ridiculous and contrived? How does that invalidate my and others' views today? Strangler Lewis was doing distraction finishes 100 years ago - it was shit then and it's shit now. Calling out distraction finishes can't be done because they were called out 100 years ago? Of course it can. Just like calling out overly-contrived shit can be done today, despite it being called out repeatedly over the ages.

Mocking people passive-aggressively because of their likes and dislikes? C'mon mate. People were saying that stuff about Carpentier? I wasn't around back then, El-P. I'm around now. And so is Komander.

I say this knowing your post was in good humour and without malice; I just think it missed the mark.

[sek69]

People have been saying flippy MOVEZ guys are killing the business for over 60 years now, which I believe was his point. It's been said the wrestling fanbase turns over every decade or so, and you can really tell based on people's complaints. Anything that was different from what they grew up with is not "real" pro wrestling, despite the flippy MOVEZ guys being the ones who tend to draw the most attention. There's a reason why you can show any non fan a lucha match and it usually will grab their attention. 

I don't say that to invalidate your feelings either, everyone has their own tastes. I think Dory Funk was boring as shit but also I acknowledge there was enough of a market for his work for him to be world champion for years in an era where that was based on drawing power. 

It's just the nature of the beast that when someone/something new comes along that gets popular, there's going to be existing fans who don't get the appeal or don't care for it. 

[El-P]

7 hours ago, Dav'oh said:

I say this knowing your post was in good humour and without malice; I just think it missed the mark.

It really didn't. It was supposed to be funny first and foremost and in good spirit.

7 hours ago, Dav'oh said:

Mocking people passive-aggressively because of their likes and dislikes?

Because "Cooperative flippy-doe" and "Acrobat#512" is not at all mocking people passive-agressively, you see. Come on now. It's been going on for years now, people making fun of mOvEz, thinking they come off way smarter than people who chant "fight forever", because they like "smart work" and "psychology" (but don't actually get what they talk about, and hey, I'm pleading guilty, I've been there). It's really the pot calling the kettle black. 

7 hours ago, Dav'oh said:

People were saying that stuff about Carpentier?

There was someone on Twitter some time ago who posted a newspaper article from like the 30's I believe, and it was pretty much the template for my post, right down to the "it's all gymnastics now and has no credibility anymore". So yeah, probably some people were saying that stuff about Carpentier and Rocca, and it's fun to copy-paste the boomers argument from today to 1956 or something. The old guys sure did say this about Flair when he popped up : tumbling nonsense, no believability. Same old story. The older generation (and the younger people with a fascination for the past) crapping on whatever they did not grew up on. 

I don't begrudge anyone for their taste. I could not care less, everyone likes what they like (duh). The issue is people thinking what they like is the only way to go and everything else is wrong. It's especially true when it's a matter of thinking you're smarter (and more importantly, showing it to everybody) because you like "The amazing psychology of Buddy Rose in the Portland territory in the early 80's hey, look at me I'm so intelligent and know so much, wow" as opposed to "lolilol stoopid gen-Z crossfit wrestling flippy-doe mOvEZ". 

[Dav'oh]

I don't see what that's got to do with me, Guy Who Doesn't Like Komander's Rope Walk #407, or anyone else in 2023. There were probably people who mocked those who mocked Flair, too, and those who argued contemporaneously against that 30's article you saw on the Twitters. Same old story indeed.

I remember this started with "Why does Komander walk the ropes when the laws of physics recommend otherwise, thus straining my credulity too far", and amongst all these words the only answer was "because lucha".

I also suspect many of you sport goatees. That question went unanswered.

 

[El-P]

1 minute ago, Dav'oh said:

I don't see what that's got to do with me

Well..... You realize that my joke post wasn't even a direct reply to you, right ? 

1 minute ago, Dav'oh said:

I remember this started with "Why does Komander walk the ropes when the laws of physics recommend otherwise, thus straining my credulity too far", and amongst all these words the only answer was "because lucha".

No. I gave you very factual reasons to why he's doing what he's doing. Plus, yes, lucha.

The irony in all of this, is that I'd much rather watch ZSJ vs Tom Lawlor than Komander vs Vikingo, so, it's not like I was even preaching for my personal tastes of choice.

[Blehschmidt]

I'm just curious, what's wrong with a goatee?

[Embrodak]

I’m pretty sure people who say they would rather people work smart and with ring psychology mostly know what they mean by that.