Dark Side of the Ring

[SteveJRogers]

10 hours ago, MoS said:

The MJF-Pillman Jr. storyline leans heavily into the DSOTR episode about Pillman. It's where MJF's whole Methanie thing comes from. The DSOTR episode discussed Brian Jr's upbringing and how his mom was an addict and didn't treat him well. MJF might even have mentioned DSOTR by name I think, and has certainly posted stills of Melanie from the episode on Twitter. 

To be fair, DSOTR isn’t the only place you can find info on Brian & Melanie Pillman.  Books, including one written by a PWO member, have been written, I’d imagine podcast episodes have delved into things, etc.

I know AEW is trying to project an image of their smart marks (intentional reference) soaking up every bit of information from whatever the latest IWC craze is, but I don’t think it’s fair of anyone to necessarily expect any percentage of the fanbase to be that dialed in on whatever happens to be the hottest docu-series, podcast, dirt sheet site, etc.

Otherwise it’s falling into one of the traps that doomed Russo era WCW.  Not everyone knows/cares about what they were work-shooting about when you have a massive mainstream platform.  Doing it in ECW was one thing, they were small enough to get away with it, but it can alienate the percentage of the audience that has no bloody clue about what is being referenced!  

[The Man in Blak]

Flair's trending nationally on Twitter right now as people are reacting to this, so I think making a comparison to the other DSOTR storyline actually undersells it, if anything. Fans who have been entrenched in the industry for years know about Flair's reputation, but this could end up being the most publicized incident of this stripe in Flair's entire career, period.

On top of that, Flair would be coming in to manage a character in Andrade that really hasn't connected with the AEW fanbase yet (though, in all fairness, a lot of that has to do with his booking) and appeared to be making an almost-face turn (or at least an "honorable heel" turn), so there's a real risk of torpedoing Andrade if they move forward with Flair as his second.

The smart play is to go in another direction and, if Andrade balks at that, then I'd say show him the door as well.

[Timbo Slice]

Andrade has little leverage at this point, too. The adds to the company in the last several weeks outside of him have been absolutely stellar and really made the product stand out, and if he tries to play the Superstar card, he’ll get the door pretty quick. That’s not the type of locker room where that shit will be tolerated, it seems. 
 

Well, except for Cody.

[strobogo]

I feel like in 3 months Flair will be welcomed with open arms and there will still be think pieces put out about him but people are still going to pop and whoooo because like it's been said, everyone has known this about Flair for decades, it's not even been an open secret it's just been out in the open that this is the guy he is for 40 years now. 

[Tenese Sarwieh]

https://www.fightful.com/wrestling/exclusives/impact-staff-told-tommy-dreamer-would-not-be-weekend-s-impact-tapings?utm_source=TW-Fightful&utm_medium=Fightful Wrestling News&utm_campaign=dlvr.it

We'll see how this goes. In 2021 to defend sexual harassment just because you are a mark for "the boys" is just dumbfounding to me. 

[funkdoc]

PWInsider just reported Dreamer on indefinite suspension, too...

[Jmare007]

At first I saw the Twitter clips and even though Dreamer was a fucking scumbag I thought it was made to sound even worse that he intended. At first I thought he was just making a generic defense of Flair in the typical way friends justify toxic/abusive behavior  of their closed ones, and that editing made it look even more repulsive by making him be the one to "respond" to the flight attendant testimony.

But then he directly talks about her and how she shouldn't have taken settlement money and went to the full extent of the law to put Flair in prison if she was so offended. Fucking hell, way to show you are a piece of shit when no one asked for it.

 

I'm also with @hammerva, Terri's quotes paint the best picture at how wrestling truly is/was.

[sek69]

2 minutes ago, Jmare007 said:

But then he directly talks about her and how she shouldn't have taken settlement money and went to the full extent of the law to put Flair in prison if she was so offended. Fucking hell, way to show you are a piece of shit when no one asked for it.

Especially when they showed her talking about accepting the settlement because her husband was pushing for it so the story wouldn't get out. 

And that her employer pushed her to keep it quiet because celebrities need their privacy,

And that Vince would have used his legal team to steamroll her and turn her life upside down to prove a point.

Sure, Thomas.

[El-P]

Boy.... there is so much to say about this one I have no idea where to start.

First of all, there is nothing here that *we*, the hardcore pro-wrestling geeks, did not know about. We heard it countless and countless times in various crappy RF shoot interviews and Kayfabe Commentaries Youshoot DVDs. Which is actually makes it so fascinating that it apparently resonates in bizarre fashion in 2021.

I'm gonna say this : if you're a long-time, more than casual pro-wrestling fan and you're acting  offended and outraged about Ric Flair on Twitter now, GO FUCK YOURSELF. Because *everybody knew* this shit for ever. 

Also, if you're a long-time, more than casual pro-wrestling fan and you're acting  offended and outraged about Ric Flair on Twitter now but don't have shit to say about Brock Lesnar, GO FUCK YOURSELF WITH A RUSTY SCREWDRIVER. Didn't Terri Runnels re-told that story during #SpeakingOut ? Where is the outrage for Brock Lesnar who sexually assaulted (yeah, exposing yourself is a sexual assault) Terri Runnels ? I mean, Flair is a 70 years old guy who's career has been done for about 15 years, Brock is your WWE fixture as far as Big Show Match goes, but apparently the prospect of Lesnar vs Reigns is just too sweet to say anything about that guy.

I like Tommy Dreamer and all, and really at first I wasn't really offended by his stance about Flair. He's a guy who's been brought up in the ECW locker room, you know, where guys exchanged syringes of their own blood to share drugs (as told by Francine), so I get where he is coming from in term of putting things in his own screwed up context. But at the end of the show, I facepalmed the fuck out of myself as he went straight into victim shaming. For fuck's sake Dreamer, did Raven DDTed once too many time on your head ? I mean, I get it, he's an old guy and all and sadly that's the kind of thing you hear all the time. And he also defended WWE going to Saudi Arabia, so there, nothing new about saying stupid shit to defend Da Business.

As far as Scott Hall goes, I believe 100% he has no recognition whatsoever of what happened. I've spent almost 10 years with a women who had "alcoholic issues", to put it mildly, so I know how these thing goes, the regular black outs and partial/total loss of memory. Not that it excuses his behaviour, but it makes sense he has no recollection of it.

8 hours ago, hammerva said:

Really nothing describes how bad this and really the atmosphere toward women was in 2002 WWE then Terri Runnels constantly being told "don't sell it" when guys try creepy shit.   Almost feels like a "just lay down and accept it" kind of thing.

Yeah, this is one of the most telling thing about this documentary. And really now, let's scroll back to Sunny and the infamous "shit sandwich" and "piss and shit in the slop bucket" stuff. But it's Sunny, right, so it doesn't matter, she was a bitch to Candido (but oh well all those guys who fucked around during the trips are A-OK of course, because it's not the same thing). Terri always struck me as a smart, personable and kind human being in interviews that I saw of her, and I'm glad she was able to appear on this doc (still looks awesome too).

Speaking of the family, at least Dustin came off the "better" of the bunch, only embarrassing himself (and Terri, sadly) but apparently trying to help that poor flying attendant who was only trying to do her job. 

And yeah, I'm glad that once again, Dark Side gives a voice and a face to the victim. This is as much as her story as anything else, which was both cool to see and needed. I thought she came off really good and again it's pretty telling of an entire social system that her own company basically told her to "no-sell it", like the wrestling culture would tell Terri (and other women).

Justin Credible looked rough but came off as a nice guy (always heard he was one in those shoot interviews too).

Mike Chioda came off like a douchebag. Isn't he an anti-Meltz Twitter idiot too ? 

RVD was quite interesting, almost like an "outside observer". The one thing that hit me like a ton of brick is that he basically told in no uncertain term that back in the days, it was a common practice for "the boys" to basically.... drug rape groupies. Again, not something we don't know about and haven't heard countless times in old shoot interview, but to hear it in an actual documentary is something else. And people are pissed the most about Dreamer and Flair, really ? To me that's the most striking quote of the entire thing (along with Terri's).

6 hours ago, hammerva said:

It seems like RVD is into some crazy shit with his "friends" but he at least realizes that he can only do this around his own circle and that the real world is much different place.

What about his crazy shit ? Never heard anything. Like, orgies with his "may have been an escort/stripper" girlfriend ? Well, anything that happens between consenting adults is fine with me. 

And now there's the question about Flair. And really, about us pro-wrestling fans and our many cognitive dissonances.

As a pro-wrestling fan, sure I'd love to see Flair show up in AEW, if only for a shot or two, because it would be pretty cool.

Also as a pro-wrestling fan, if we want AEW to be *different* from what pro-wrestling used to be, it would probably be wiser not to bring Ric Flair at all. It's not like he's needed or anything. If they bring him in, well, AEW is not that different from any other pro-wrestling promotion, but then again, it's not just about pro-wrestling but an entire social system of domination. That's what it's about.

I remember that quote from Meltz when he talked about how people would look at the territories with rose colored glass : "If you don't have underage girls giving blowjobs in the locker room, this ain't the territories." And he's right. People can get outraged (or fake outrage because that's what is socially the norm) as much as they want, but a lot of the people from the past that are still being put on a pedestal today did some really awful shit. That's whom the legacy of pro-wrestling (but not just pro-wrestling) has been built on. So what do we do with these people now ? What do we do with that inheritance ? The very least we can do is at least exchange about it and make sure, as much as we can, that most of this stuff won't happen again by not supporting those who have done it before and may still do it today. Then again, we aren't judges, Twitter surely isn't a court of law and we live in cognitive dissonance *everyday* about *many* things. Those who ask for "purity" are usually the most hypocritical of all, not to mention there's no such thing as purity, in anything.

Still, when stuff like this gets exposed, it all comes down to what kind of praxis, to use a fancy word, you want to engage into. Obviously, we all knew Ric Flair has been doing this shit for ever. Maybe it's time to remember Flair as the great pro-wrestler than he was if we want to, but cease to give the guy a platform for him to receive public adulation and money (which equals social and  economical capital, which equals to a dominating position). Just maybe.

I'm looking forward to every episode of this part 2.

And I really hope we get a Jerry Lawler episode one day (you know why). Because, really now... 

[NintendoLogic]

1 hour ago, strobogo said:

I feel like in 3 months Flair will be welcomed with open arms and there will still be think pieces put out about him but people are still going to pop and whoooo because like it's been said, everyone has known this about Flair for decades, it's not even been an open secret it's just been out in the open that this is the guy he is for 40 years now. 

I don't know. Most fans aren't connoisseurs of sleaze threads and shoot interviews, and I think a lot of them were under the impression that Flair's antics were limited to sleeping around and relatively harmless behavior like running naked through hotel corridors. Cornering someone and forcing them to touch your junk is far more serious. And even if the fans don't care, there's a good chance corporate sponsors will. Look at what happened with Snickers and Moolah. If they'll throw their weight around over something as insignificant as the name of a pre-show battle royal, you better believe they'll do likewise with having an accused sexual predator in a featured role on TV.

[sek69]

I got the impression on social media that there were a lot of folks who weren't around when this happened and only heard about the plane ride stories from places like that ESPN 30/30 episode that framed Flair's behavior as just harmless wacky hijinks. It sure seemed this was the first time a lot of 20 somethings first heard the actual gory details. 

26 minutes ago, El-P said:

Maybe it's time to just let it rest, remember Flair as the great pro-wrestler than he was (if we want to), but cease to give the guy a platform for him to receive public adulation and money (which equals social and  economical capital, which equals to a dominating position). Just maybe.

I get what you're saying but at that same time "just let it rest" is the rallying cry of dudebros and douchebags that never want this kind of behavior to go away and for the people who did it to never face any consequences. This kind of behavior needs to be nuked from orbit no matter if it's some no name low level indy geek or Ric Flair. 

[El-P]

9 minutes ago, sek69 said:

I get what you're saying but at that same time "just let it rest" is the rallying cry of dudebros and douchebags that never want this kind of behavior to go away and for the people who did it to never face any consequences.

I may have expressed myself poorly. What I meant is : "Just let it rest with putting Ric Flair on TV". I'm gonna edit the post to avoid any misunderstanding. 

Totally agree about this kind of behavior needing to be nuked no matter who it is.

Also forgot to mention the irony of Coach Tony K. starting the Sleaze Thread. He should know what to (not) do, really.

[sek69]

I almost feel bad for Andrade since he clearly had all these plans to bring Ric in and that's all seemingly out the window now, but then you reap what you sow there I suppose. 

[El-P]

Considering Andrade had plans working against Alberto at some points, I'm not sure I'd feel that bad for him... 

[funkdoc]

The thing you have to remember is a LOT of fans quit watching wrestling altogether in that period right before the plane ride - either because of WCW/ECW dying, or Austin turning heel.  That's a decent chunk of the audience AEW has picked up, in my experience, so this would be genuinely new to a portion of the audience there.

This is still wild to see in real time, though - the closest to this level of outrage i remember coming from DSOTR before was the Nick Gage episode and that was a drop in the bucket.

[strobogo]

I don't think the industry is ready to cancel Ric Flair, because that implicates basically everyone that has worked with him and his superiors for 40 some years as accomplices who never stopped working with him, hiring him, or honoring him as a GOAT. Except Shane Douglas and Scott Steiner, I guess.

[El-P]

As far as Tommy Dreamer being suspended for saying real stupid shit on a documentary... I dunno. This is where things get tricky to me. Especially when all those people really outraged by Dreamer for just saying some stupid shit don't seem to react nearly as much about Brock Lesnar actually flashing his dick to Terri Runnels. Gotta get that Mania main event.

[strobogo]

I have a hard time believing people upset with Dreamer saying wild shit are really super hyped and big supporters of SaudiMania blood money deals but idk

[El-P]

The fact remains that we don't hear much outraged outrage about Lesnar. Gotta love the idea that things got *so much* better afterward, you know, when Randy Orton was being charming with all the Divas.... 

Also, fake-outrage about Meltzer when he inevitably says something in an awkward way about Flair that will get the usual cookie-points getter crowd all excited in 5... 4... 3... (come on, you know this is happening sooner than later).

[strobogo]

Probably because Brock Lesnar wasn't the focus of the incident, Ric Flair was, and what he is accused of doing is worse and a long pattern of behavior for him. Really don't think people are not talking about Brock because they're worried about Brock vs Roman in Saudi, lol

[El-P]

You really think I meant that *literally* ? The incident was about Flair indeed, but Lesnar was namely accused of sexual assault too in that documentary. So there.

[KawadaSmile]

Is it possible that newer, unexperienced viewers could be turned off from wrestling altogether? Like, this whole thing happened twenty years ago and there was basically no legal repercussion to Flair, Brock, or even Hall, and most of it was somewhat known at the time. I can see someone turning on to this and feeling shocked and wanting to distance themselves from that sleazy business.

At the same time, I kind of agree with @strobogoin the sense that this will be forgotten in some time. Even worse things have come out in the past couple of years (Ashley Massaro's story comes to mind) and really, besides stuff in the indies and a handful of wrestlers getting fired, nothing changed. It is disheartening.

[sek69]

As I said in the other thread, I think Brock may be getting a pass because he doesn't have a decades long history of this behavior other than that one time in UFC he said he was gonna go home and fuck his wife in his post fight interview. Dude goes to the woods and wrestles bears or whatever between WWE stints and no one ever hears about him. 

Plus as stated, he wasn't the focus of the story, and Tommy dousing himself with gas and lighting a match was such a jaw dropping moment of course that gets more attention.

[El-P]

1 minute ago, KawadaSmile said:

Is it possible that newer, unexperienced viewers could be turned off from wrestling altogether? Like, this whole thing happened twenty years ago and there was basically no legal repercussion to Flair, Brock, or even Hall, and most of it was somewhat known at the time. I can see someone turning on to this and feeling shocked and wanting to distance themselves from that sleazy business.

As a 31 years old fan, I ask myself that question too, very regularly when real bad shit pop up. But like I said, it's not inherent to pro-wrestling. You think things are better in Hollywood ? In the music industry ? In the TV industry ? In sports ? In politics ? Think again. I mean, this world is a failure, honestly. 

[strobogo]

1 minute ago, El-P said:

You really think I meant that *literally* ? The incident was about Flair indeed, but Lesnar was namely accused of sexual assault too in that documentary. So there.

Well, yes, I did think you meant it literally since you mentioned it multiple times in a "WWE fans will defend their guys no matter what" kind of implication. 50 something year old legend spinning his dick around, cornering a woman and forcing her to touch it and has a long history of such behavior with his dick out vs. Young rookie Brock flashing someone. Surely you can see why one is getting more focus than the other at the moment.