Comments that don't warrant a thread

[sek69]

I could be wrong, but I would think that Dos Caras's mask holds more weight in Mexico considering the family ties than Rey's did. It would be like if Santo signed with WWE and appeared on RAW unmasked, he couldn't go back to Mexico as if nothing happened (and no I'm not saying Dos Caras is the same level as Santo).

[S.L.L.]

I would think it would be a significant mask to throw away since, if the idea is to have him eventually replace Rey, they'd probably want to replace all those masks that Rey is selling on the merchandise table. What's the point of replacing Rey with an unmasked luchador if the issue is money?

[Tim Evans]

Well the Mexican press blurs out pictures of Dos without his mask. I think they will bring him in unmasked and maybe Incognito can come in as the masked guy.

[KrisZ]

LOL @ TNA, tonight is their last night on Mondays as they are moving back to Thursdays starting next week.

[Sean Liska]

Hogan hates being associated with failure. I wonder how much longer he'll be involved with this. I guess the wildcard is that it sounds like he actually does need the money.

[jdw]

Yeah, I was thinking both sides of that: it's the point he usually finds reasons not to be around a failure, but he also probably could use the cash. He's not likely to be as poor as Ric is, but the divorce and the lawsuit have stretched him.

 

John

[goc]

I think it depends on how he sees things playing out in the future. If he feels TNA is safe to just stick around on Thursdays and do the same as it's always done, he'll probably stick around. If he thinks the whole thing is going to end up sinking he'll probably jump off.

[rovert]

LOL @ TNA, tonight is their last night on Mondays as they are moving back to Thursdays starting next week.

That announcement brought me more glee than I would normally care to admit to.

 

They should brought in Cyrus to the announcement.

 

Does anyone think that JR about this a week or two ago?

[El-P]

Man, Bischoff, Hogan and Russo have lost the Monday Nght War. Again.

I'm actually surprised they do this, as it's really acknowledging the failure of the new regime. Can't wait to hear people blaming themselves. Dixie must feel like a complete tool.

[Guest Slickster]

Yeah, I think Dixie is the only real loser here. Bischoff, Hogan, and Russo will explain their failures away because they are professional liars and spin doctors. Dixie's not quite there yet and may have a life outside of wrestling, so she might really be screwed if this comes up in her other business ventures.

[kjh]

I'm actually surprised they do this, as it's really acknowledging the failure of the new regime.

It wasn't their decision - it was Spike TV's.

[Loss]

Now what's left for them to shoot for? The argument TNA has always made, even before Hogan and Bischoff jumped on board, is that if they could only get on Monday nights, they would be competitive. The truth is, and they don't seem to grasp this, the days of wrestling promotions competing for fans are over. An entire new generation of fans that has never known any wrestling except WWE has since come in. They wouldn't look for wrestling on another channel or be dissatisfied, because this is the kind of wrestling they've grown up on, and it's all they know.

 

As tempting as it is, you can't really blame Hogan, Bischoff, Flair, or anybody else for this not succeeding. It never had a chance of succeeding, even if they had done everything right. The biggest problem facing TNA is that fans don't know they exist. Hogan, Flair, RVD, Hardy, Hall, Nash, and Sting is theoretically enough of a big name roster that they should do okay. If those were the Smackdown headliners right now, I'm not sure it would do worse than who is actually headlining Smackdown. But that's the whole issue. People know about Smackdown. Most fans have never even heard of TNA, and they don't seem to have any promoter skilled enough - nor do they have the promotional machine behind them like WCW did - to change that.

 

When most fans know about it and just choose not to watch, that's when you can start making issues of things like bad booking and old guys, but that's all useless if no one even knows you're around.

[El-P]

Of course you can blame Hogan, Bischoff, Russo, Flair, Dixie and whoever is responsible for this fiasco. Because although what you say about a new generation of wrestling fan only knowing about WWE is true, the fact remains that there is still place for an alternative product in wrestling. TNA doesn't work because the product is pure shit, and the wrestling fan who want an alternative just can't watch that crap for too long before just giving up. They could succeed, not at competing with WWE because no one can, but at establishing themselves as a viable alternative wrestling TV show, with their own audience. The blame totally goes on the people writing and booking that promotion, because they are just clueless and try to grasp an audience that doesn't exist anymore, the WCW crowd, by giving them what drove them away from wrestling in the first place. And it has never been worse on that matter than since Hogan and Bischoff came on board.

There's a place for other wrestling than WWE, which is dull as dirt, and has been most of this decade. But TNA just isn't it, because it's shit, it's as simple as that.

[kjh]

As tempting as it is, you can't really blame Hogan, Bischoff, Flair, or anybody else for this not succeeding. It never had a chance of succeeding, even if they had done everything right.

You can blame them for not realizing that it never had a chance of succeeding though, which suggests that their promotional instincts are highly questionable for today's wrestling market. They got the big picture completely wrong.

 

When most fans know about it and just choose not to watch, that's when you can start making issues of things like bad booking and old guys, but that's all useless if no one even knows you're around.

To a degree this is a fair point, especially with all of TNA's sudden time slot changes confusing their audience. But it should be noted that they weren't able to maintain their rating on Thursday night after bringing in Hogan, Flair and Bischoff before the move to Mondays, and then weren't able to maintain their rating on Mondays after moving.

[1004Holds]

I'm actually surprised they do this, as it's really acknowledging the failure of the new regime.

It wasn't their decision - it was Spike TV's.

 

Actually, it seems TNA decided to leave on their own.

 

http://www.prowrestling.net/artman/publish...e10011712.shtml

 

Dot Net TNA News: More notes on what the TNA crew was told about the move back to Thursday nights and how Spike TV intends to brand the night

May 3, 2010 - 05:57 PM

 

By Jason Powell

 

The TNA crew was told today that the company made the call to move the show back to Thursday nights. They were specifically told that it was not a Spike TV decision, but rather because market research done by the company determined that their fans wanted the show on Thursday nights.

 

With the addition of the "TNA Reaction" show to Thursday nights, Spike TV intends to rebrand the night as "TNA Thursdays." Although TNA officials handled the bulk of the meeting, there was a Spike TV official on hand to verify the info that TNA management was telling the wrestlers.

What I don't understand is why they didn't do market research before deciding to move to Mondays. I like TNA despite its flaws and it's a shame that when they had some momentum on 1/4 that they let it go to waste by putting on bad shows. Then, when they started to get their act together it was too late. Maybe they'll learn something from this and hopefully keep trying.

[Guest Cerebus The Aardvark]

I'm actually surprised they do this, as it's really acknowledging the failure of the new regime.

It wasn't their decision - it was Spike TV's.

 

According to LoP's original blurb, TNA officials told the workers that it was TNA's decision, not Spike's. Take that for what it's worth.

 

EDIT: Sarnath'd.

[kjh]

Dave and Bryan's original reports said it was a Spike TV decision. Of course, their original reports could be wrong, but wrestling promotions do have a tendency to willfully disregard market research that is at odds with their own promotional philosophies. At the end of the day, even if TNA asked to move Impact back to Thursdays, Spike TV had to agree to the move.

[Herodes]

Seriously, stepping outside the insider bubble and getting some casual fan perspective, isn't a large part of the problem the simple fact that the name of the promotion is TNA? To most people their first impression will be that any promotion that has a cheap pun like that as their name means that it will be some shit GLOW-esque bikini babes, soft porn-lite mud wrestling. It's sometimes easy to forget the sheer ridiculousness of wrestlers talking seriously about challenging for the TNA title. At the very least they should change the name to something like IMPACT Wrestling because it's not like the TNA brand has any worth.

 

Anyway there's a whole generation of fans now to whom wrestling means WWE in the way NBA and basketball are interchangeable, the very concept of a secondary or alternative promotion means nothing. Good booking won't change that, nor will WWE's alleged staleness, and it's a talking point that should be dismissed. The only way an alternative promotion could ever be truly viable would be if John Cena jumped ship, because he's the only franchise-level wrestler around these days, or possibly Rey Misterio too. Those are the only two I can think of who are potentially industry-changing stars, in the way Hogan was in 1994, and to a lesser extent Nash and Hall were in 1996. They can't create their own Goldberg in-house if no one is watching in the first place, so unless they can somehow get Cena and/or Misterio and completely rebrand, aggresively market and rebuild the promotion around them, they're going nowhere.

[El-P]

I agree about the name, it's mind-blowing that the promotion kept that name. Worst wrestling promotion name ever.

[Loss]

Of course you can blame Hogan, Bischoff, Russo, Flair, Dixie and whoever is responsible for this fiasco. Because although what you say about a new generation of wrestling fan only knowing about WWE is true, the fact remains that there is still place for an alternative product in wrestling. TNA doesn't work because the product is pure shit, and the wrestling fan who want an alternative just can't watch that crap for too long before just giving up. They could succeed, not at competing with WWE because no one can, but at establishing themselves as a viable alternative wrestling TV show, with their own audience.

TNA is shit. I'm not arguing with you there. But I would say even if they were great, they would still be doing the exact same business they are doing now.

 

The blame totally goes on the people writing and booking that promotion, because they are just clueless and try to grasp an audience that doesn't exist anymore, the WCW crowd, by giving them what drove them away from wrestling in the first place. And it has never been worse on that matter than since Hogan and Bischoff came on board.

Are they to blame for TNA sucking? Yes, absolutely. Are they to blame for TNA not drawing? That's a different question. If TNA was good, I don't know that it would make much difference.

 

There's a place for other wrestling than WWE, which is dull as dirt, and has been most of this decade. But TNA just isn't it, because it's shit, it's as simple as that.

I would have agreed with you at some point, but too much time has passed. It's been almost a decade since there were two established national promotions, and even longer since they were both doing big business at the same time. 1998 will never happen again, just like in 1998, we weren't going to see a return to what wrestling was in 1986. Now, arguing that WWE could have competition feels like arguing that the territories could come back. The ship has sailed.

[El-P]

I don't know if it would do better business, but it certainly wouldn't do worse. They could do reasonnably good if they delivered a good alternative product without relying on washed up guys from the past and rejects from WWE. And I'm not saying doing good means doing good against WWE. Like I said, competing with Vince now is just not gonna happen. Doing good means running their business, delivering a good product that paying fans might enjoy, and not even thinking about WWE. That can be done. I'm not talking about being a competitive promotion to Vince, like you said, 1998 is not going to happen again.

[Bob Morris]

I don't know if it would do better business, but it certainly wouldn't do worse. They could do reasonnably good if they delivered a good alternative product without relying on washed up guys from the past and rejects from WWE. And I'm not saying doing good means doing good against WWE. Like I said, competing with Vince now is just not gonna happen. Doing good means running their business, delivering a good product that paying fans might enjoy, and not even thinking about WWE. That can be done. I'm not talking about being a competitive promotion to Vince, like you said, 1998 is not going to happen again.

I've always stated that TNA's biggest problem is it has no clue what it wants its identity to be. Watching the shows, it looks like WWE product aimed at an older audience, and the shows look like Raw in a smaller arena with a smaller crowd.

 

I agree with what's been said that TNA needs to change its name for starters. It would also help to work on production values so, while they still are of a high quality, it actually looks different from WWE. That's why I thought it was a dumb decision to get rid of the six-sided ring... while that alone wasn't going to make all the difference, it was at least a step in the right direction of making the product look different from WWE.

 

And while I definitely can see what El-P is saying and won't argue that TNA's booking is awful, what the company really needs is somebody who can understand the need to carve an identity for the company and sell Spike on it. Seems to me it's not just Dixie Carter who believes "top stars equal ratings" but the Viacom folks who also believe that.

 

But I do suspect, even if TNA re-invented itself with a distinct identity and better booking, the company would still be doing 1.2 ratings with dismal PPV buyrates simply because people don't know anything about the product. I know El-P wasn't referring to business with his "reasonably good" remark, but 1.2 ratings and PPV buyrates that are hardly a blip on the radar screen certainly don't fit the definition of "reasonably good" business for a promotion that wants to be selling PPVs.

[Dan]

Well let's look at it, Shelton has been average at best for the last couple of years, Funaki, Yang, & Gordy were all curtain jerkers when they were used, Mickie is a country singer, & Katie had no role after Paul got cut. I'm not surprised with these.

Good god I hate the IWC's love for Shelton. Wont be able to move for the crying the next few days. Has anyone ever done so much in a match (MITB) and never gotten over one iota extra as a result of it.

 

The Mickie furor is going to be a million times worse. I remember when Molly Holly was released (well, actually she quit) There were multi-page threads everywhere demanding the boycott of WWE.

 

http://www.ctpost.com/news/article/WWE-fan...eats-472869.php

 

[jdw]

Uh...

 

John

[Death From Above]

Loss:

I would have agreed with you at some point, but too much time has passed. It's been almost a decade since there were two established national promotions, and even longer since they were both doing big business at the same time. 1998 will never happen again, just like in 1998, we weren't going to see a return to what wrestling was in 1986. Now, arguing that WWE could have competition feels like arguing that the territories could come back. The ship has sailed.

And even then, somehow the Monday Night Wars have been blown really out of proportion in how fans remember them, in terms of both companies *actually making money*, which is the only way any sort of "promotional war" actually lasts. Otherwise one company loses money until it dies, which is just what happened. A lot of fans confuse the TV ratings with the overall sign of "success" even though both companies had national TV while they managed to blow millions, each in their own period.

 

In business terms, WCW was kicking WWF's ass for a while there. Didn't it actually get so bad that at one point in 96 or 97 (I think 97) that Vince actually bounced some paychecks? The company was in serious trouble. The only reason they still existed as a meaningful entity at all was that all the glory years of Hogan making money for Vince like nothing ever before gave them (apparently) just enough of a safety net to make a last stand at the Alamo. They stumbled into Austin and The Rock (whether by design or accident), and it was the Magic Bullet. Things turned around, and a lot of people just forgot how close they all came to either losing the company, or the company being something very different than what it is today.

 

There was a period of genuine dual success for both companies when everything was gravy, everyone made money, wrestling drew fans everywhere, and they were kings of the mountain. But it didn't really last that long. WCW was obviously bulging by probably mid-98, and by 1999 the ship was leaking pretty bad. Vince was kicking their ass for ratings by then but the real issue was about bleeding money, and a lot of it. If you offered any new company now what WCW's TV ratings were then they'd build you a fucking statue and elect you emperor for life, but the Monday Night Wars were, in business terms, pretty much over as it turned out. WCW never saw another dime of profit and the rest is history.

 

It wasn't that big a window of dual success. What, 2 years? That's probably slightly generous. These days people talk about it like it was some glorious 5-year window when everyone made money, and that really isn't the case. The idea of two long term healthy national wrestling companies is a myth. Or at the very least, to this point it has been a myth, that isn't to say that someday it can't happen.

 

There's absolutely no company in the game now that is even close to being halfway to making that happen. And it sure as hell will never be TNA.

 

Bob Morris:

I've always stated that TNA's biggest problem is it has no clue what it wants its identity to be.

I couldn't agree with this more. The company has almost constantly appeared to be very schizophrenic in terms of settling on any sort of meaningful identity you can build around. There's lots of examples but I'm afraid if I start dissecting TNA it could get to a few hundred million words and I don't even want to give them the attention. If I was to try and shorten it up to a few examples:

 

- They run shows out of the same studio all the time yet present the show in such a manner that this studio manages to have less identifiable life and character than almost any legitimate sporting arena you can name, who don't have the advantage of as intricate "backstage skits" or constantly looking for "cool signs" in the crowd to use.

 

- They alternate bizarrely between wanting to make themselves look edgy in a meaningful way (X-Division, ULTIMATE GEOMETRY WARS ring, Knockouts Division), while still regularly managing to make their show more of the same (Jeff Jarrett, Dusty Rhodes, Sting, Hogan, nWo Version 1000).

 

- They constantly build up to things being VERY SHOCKING and would love to be shock TV, then expect the audience to be somehow outraged over said shocks. Mild example would be Abyss being revealed to have killed his father as a SHOCKING THING after all we've ever been told about him is that he was in an asylum, he's nuts, he's a sociopath. How is this shocking? More Russoriffic in later years, things like The Milk Incident where it's supposed to be so shocking that it gets people talking (I guess... I got no other rationale here), but this is a day and age when even almost the biggest marks watching TV wrestling realize someone has to be writing this shit. So you put in on my TV then scream it's shocking, and I'm supposed to bite.

 

Blah blah blah. They want to go every direction at once instead of picking something and doing it. Company isn't even run by marks, because marks would never book anything this schizophrenic, because marks like things that MAKE FUCKING SENSE.

 

Even that is way too many words on TNA.

 

And yes, the name is retarded.

 

And don't even get me started on the entire philosophy the company has been built around for ages "If we only had TV and/or if that TV was only longer than it is now, we could become a big company, even though we have absolutely no fanbase at all". This has never worked, and there's no reason to think that it ever will.