Comments that don't warrant a thread

[jdw]

Yeah, the key phrase there was "best work". Dave liked what he thought of as the best of Jumbo's work.

 

 

John

[Loss]

And for the record, I know you and I have gone back and forth in the past on Jumbo's career compared to Flair's career, but I really do think the whole "Jumbo was lazy on small shows" thing is crap. Jumbo is a guy with a ton of great matches, many of which aren't even the Misawa/Kawada/Kobashi/Tenryu/Terry Funk matches that get the most play. They weren't even huge deals at the time.

 

Far more than anyone from the Samurai version of Classics (and probably the G+ as well), Jumbo is the guy you can most count on to pop in a random match from a random show that you've never even really heard anything about and expect to enjoy it. Many of them are even against the American midcarders that he supposedly was never inspired to work with.

 

[Loss]

You know, I understand that wrestling magazines are kind of a dead entity, but PWI's photo library is probably the only thing they have that is still somewhat valuable. I don't know that a coffee table book would sell well enough to be worth the price of production, but there has to be some way they can use those photos to make money.

[Al]

You know, I understand that wrestling magazines are kind of a dead entity, but PWI's photo library is probably the only thing they have that is still somewhat valuable. I don't know that a coffee table book would sell well enough to be worth the price of production, but there has to be some way they can use those photos to make money.

WWE uses their photos semi-frequently in their shows. I wonder if PWI receives compensation for it.

[ohtani's jacket]

And for the record, I know you and I have gone back and forth in the past on Jumbo's career compared to Flair's career, but I really do think the whole "Jumbo was lazy on small shows" thing is crap.

Maybe so, but the information we have about Japanese wrestling is extremely limited. There's only so much you can surmise from watching tapes.

[S.L.L.]

And for the record, I know you and I have gone back and forth in the past on Jumbo's career compared to Flair's career, but I really do think the whole "Jumbo was lazy on small shows" thing is crap.

Maybe so, but the information we have about Japanese wrestling is extremely limited. There's only so much you can surmise from watching tapes.

 

The thing is, if I understand correctly, it's Dave's talking point, and Dave's own experiences with Jumbo's house show matches were almost uniformly positive. The only exception was a tag match against the Funks, after which, Dave talked to Terry Funk about it, and Terry told him that Jumbo was lazy at house shows. We can't really prove that the claim is true or false, but it's main proponent believed it, not only because of the claims of a wrestler trying to defer blame for a bad match from himself, but in spite of Dave's own first-hand evidence to the contrary.

[ohtani's jacket]

But did Dave really blow it up into a talking point? Or was it a throwaway comment that he should've been more careful about making?

[S.L.L.]

But did Dave really blow it up into a talking point? Or was it a throwaway comment that he should've been more careful about making?

Depends on how you want to define talking point.

 

He's defended it when called on it.

 

In discussion of the greatest workers of all time, he uses it as evidence of why Jumbo isn't one. Was a big reason behind his belief that Flair is a better all-time worker than Jumbo.

 

Don't think he brought it up when saying that Kurt Angle was a better career worker than Jumbo, but I get the sense that if you asked him, he would say that was a reason.

 

It's not like he said it once and then backed off of it, never to be used again.

[jdw]

But did Dave really blow it up into a talking point? Or was it a throwaway comment that he should've been more careful about making?

It wasn't a throwaway comment. It's one he's gone through about five different "explanations" / "defenses" of why it is true. Each time one was proved to be wrong, he fell back to a new line of defense, that in turn would be wrong.

 

The "tag match with the Funks" defense was only come up with after Bix called him on a WO Live show and pointed out all the house shows Dave saw him on where Dave gave him high star ratings. Dave graspes around for a new explanation, and grabbed the one low rated matches, and came up with that reason.

 

By the point, it was about the 4th explanation he made. It was shot down as well, as was the next one he made (using Foley and Brody's words as defenses).

 

What you have to go back to was Dave's original claim - Jumbo only worked hard in "Big Matches". He said it with some force, but it was so laughable that it was shot down in about two minutes. After a bit, he fell back to "Big Shows". That was laughable as well, shot down in about two minutes. At some point he fell back to "When TV Was Rolling" with some line of defense in between. That's struck me as odd from reading the WON over the years, and it's when I looked up the shows Dave went to where he saw Jumbo work. I rolled them out, and Bix took it to call Dave out on his show. Dave stammered, and came up with the next line.

 

When Bix dragged that back over, it took another two minutes to shoot down. It actually was Terry who sucked in that series, and Dave at the time had an excuse for it - Terry's back was thrashed from an injury in PR the month before. Terry couldn't work his usual type of matches. The JWJ coverage of the Tag League had the same comment - Terry wasn't working well.

 

If Terry blamed it on Jumbo (which isn't likely), then Terry was simply looking for an excuse for the one poorly rated tag match sucking. I say it's not likely since Terry already pointed to an excuse for his mediocre matches and work - he was hurt really, really, really bad.

 

Dave kind of ignored that one, and shifted over to Foley and Brody for his next line of defense.

 

John

[Al]

When it comes to Jumbo Tsuruta, I'm not a tape trader and he never wrestled stateside in my lifetime (fan beginning in 1990 so I missed his AWA run). Even if I tracked down all his big matches, I don't think I could possibly make a fair comparison between him and Ric Flair. Does anyone else have trouble really comparing Japanese to US wrestlers, or do you feel your knowledge is well enough to make a fair judgment?

 

On another note, picked up Greg Oliver's book on wrestling heels. It's well worth noting that we are in a golden age of wrestling books. When I was younger, you would see a book here and there on wrestling, if you were lucky. Now there are two or three shelves worth in a bookstore, everything from biographies, autobiographies, books on individual promotions (options included ECW and Stampede), etc. Say what you will about Mick Foley, but his autobiography in my view really blew the roof off the marketplace.

[goodhelmet]

When it comes to Jumbo Tsuruta, I'm not a tape trader and he never wrestled stateside in my lifetime (fan beginning in 1990 so I missed his AWA run). Even if I tracked down all his big matches, I don't think I could possibly make a fair comparison between him and Ric Flair. Does anyone else have trouble really comparing Japanese to US wrestlers, or do you feel your knowledge is well enough to make a fair judgment?

Any wrestler from any era can compared to each other. I think there is enough Jumbo captured on film and enough people who have seen him live to make a fair comparison between him and Flair. The same goes for comparing Santo to Kurt Angle or DK to Benoit or Bryan Danielson to Fit Finlay or whatever you want to use. I really feel uncomfortable comparing guys like Lou Thesz to modern wrestlers because of the lack of footage but not someone like Jumbo.

[ohtani's jacket]

Even if I tracked down all his big matches, I don't think I could possibly make a fair comparison between him and Ric Flair. Does anyone else have trouble really comparing Japanese to US wrestlers, or do you feel your knowledge is well enough to make a fair judgment?

Their careers are comparable to a certain extent... They broke into the business around the same time. Flair became NWA champion in '81, while Jumbo became the ace of AJPW in '83. Obviously, Flair worked the territories and traveled more, but Jumbo worked against most of the big names who toured Japan. All Japan was often in the position that Crockett was in regarding the popularity of Hogan/WWF and Inoki/NJPW. Jumbo/Tenryu is comparable to Flair/Steamboat. Jumbo vs. Misawa & Co. is comparable to Flair vs. Sting and Luger... In terms of differences, Jumbo's reigns as NWA International Heavyweight Championship and AWA champion, while considered prestigious in Japan, were not as highly regarded as the NWA World Heavyweight championship, which Baba had won... There was even kayfabe reasoning why Japanese wrestlers couldn't beat touring US champions... Jumbo never jumped to NJPW like Flair going to the WWF, likewise no major star jumped to Crockett like Choshu jumping to AJPW (not with the same impact)... On the flipside, Jumbo went into "enemy" territory for a 1990 Dome Show and was so over that he was declared the ace of all Japanese wrestling, which is a type of status Flair didn't have outside the territories and hardcore fans. Japan is a much smaller "territory", however. Baba also moved away from traditional US style booking towards something that loosely translates as King's Road craftsmanship, a new style of wrestling that Baba deemed necessary given the death of the territories and decline in touring American wrestlers. The comparison ends with Jumbo's illness.

 

Outside of comparing their work, matches and patterns in their careers, we're a lot more privy to the inside working of the US business. What we know about Jumbo is probably less than 10% of what Japanese people might know. I've never read Dave's obit for Jumbo, but I'm curious about how much information is in it.

[Childs]

I recall some longtime WON readers such as JDW saying the Jumbo obit was one of Dave's weaker efforts. The abridged version in Dave's compilation book has a decent re-cap of Jumbo's early career and describes how quickly he became a great worker. But I found it quite thin on his ace years.

 

As for comparing Flair and Jumbo, I see no problem there. Both are extremely well-documented on video. I mean, I'd love to get a better sense of what Jumbo was doing week to week in the 1970's, but I can't imagine that changing the way I look at him as a worker. I agree with Will. The only guys I feel uncomfortable judging are the pre-1970's guys who hardly made tape. I mean, the guys at Wrestling Classics think Liger isn't fit to scoop Danny Hodge's shit, but damned if I know.

[Bix]

--The Albany (GA) Herald at www.albanyherald.com/stories/20080105n2.htm has a story on Georgia's talk of closing the loophole that keeps WWE from being regulated in the state. There were some of the most embarrassing quotes ever in this story. For background, Georgia state law allows a company that has assets worth more than $25 million to avoid being regulated when it comes to Georgia. Jerry McDevitt said if the regulations Georgia has proposed are applied to WWE, they will leave the state. They quote John Mazzola of the Albany Civic Center saying the move (which has to be passed in the state legislature and no bill has even been drafted yet) is in response to Chris Benoit. He claimed WWE is not a sports event, it's entertainment (a hell of an argument when the name of the board is the Georgia Athletic and Entertainment Commission, not to mention that I think most people are sort of aware of what WWE is). "Don't punish a company that provides sports entertainment." Nope, just "punish" all the small companies that have a harder time making ends meet and give the big guy with no financial worries a complete exemption from the rules everyone else has to follow. The funniest stuff was State Rep Ed Rynders of Albany saying how this is unfair to single out the WWE, and there should be conformity. Actually, the bill, should it even be proposed, is about conformity. Mazzola warned WWE wasn't bluffing, noting he worked at an arena in South Carolina and because there is commission regulation, WWE refuses to come to the state. That would be news to everyone in South Carolina.

[jdw]

I recall some longtime WON readers such as JDW saying the Jumbo obit was one of Dave's weaker efforts. The abridged version in Dave's compilation book has a decent re-cap of Jumbo's early career and describes how quickly he became a great worker. But I found it quite thin on his ace years.

There really are two "bios" of Jumbo. One was when he had his "retirement" appearance before heading off to the US. The second was when he died. The obit was longer, largely with pre-pro stuff and 70s stuff. The balance seemed very much like a copy of the rest without amplification or deeper thinking.

 

Neither were among Dave's better efforts.

 

The obit did well on Jumbo getting into the business, and his pre-pro background. Largely because the pre-pro stuff was straight out of stuff given to him by Japanese reporters, and the "getting into the business" stuff would have been from the Funks to a degree... and despite Terry being full wrong on most of his stuff on Japan in his book, it's not like it's easy to fact check what they have to say about Jumbo breaking in.

 

The stuff on the 70s after breaking in hits the basics, but it's isn't great on what lays behind the basics. It was pretty laughably off in some places, such as the AJPW vs. IWA stuff.

 

It's also in hindsight is ironic reading since it revolves around dates, matches, match times, results rather than the story behind the matches or the storylines leading to them. This is ironic because Dave and Bruce are critical of historians who pull results, dates and match times from sources, but don't have the real story behind the matches. If one actually pays attention to Dave's historical writing, a crapload of it is nothing more than... well... what the historians that get ripped do. Look at the recent Flair piece, which really had a surprising lack of back ground on all those holiday matches involving Flair. "Thanks to Bruce Mitchell" on that one. Where were the "Great Stories"... or even the angles/storylines behind all of those matches.

 

Anyway...

 

There are a lot of stuff on the 70s if you were trying to get a taste of the big matches of Jumbo. The attempts to get across backstory, such as the IWA/Rusher stuff, was problematic.

 

The stuff on the 80s and 90s was mediocre. The AWA stuff was handled okay. The chase for the NWA International Title was handled okay, though that was pretty basic and obvious stuff. Baba's booking of Hansen from 1982-86 and how it related to Jumbo wasn't addresses as far as I recall, and I've always thought that was pretty interesting.

 

The invasion of Choshu's Army was handled in the expected poor fashion - Jumbo being passed by the style, etc. Dave didn't understand the booking, and couldn't be bothered to go back and look at the coverage in the WON at the time.

 

The Revolution vs. Olympians and Jumbo & Co. vs. Misawa & Co. feud was handled in something like one or two paragraphs. Combined with the Choshu stuff, it was perhaps 3-4 paragraphs... I don't even think a full page. We're talking about 1985-86, then 1987-89, and then 1990-92... seven years, three major feuds that were at the heart of one of the major promotions in the world, each that got tons of coverage in the WON over those 7 years... and they got little play in the obit other than the obvious, with some of the obvious in hindsight by Jumbo's death already being wrong. It was as if Dave blew up and just wrapped it up. Guys who've done less in their careers have had the last seven years of their career covered in far more depth.

 

 

As for comparing Flair and Jumbo, I see no problem there. Both are extremely well-documented on video. I mean, I'd love to get a better sense of what Jumbo was doing week to week in the 1970's, but I can't imagine that changing the way I look at him as a worker.

It is somewhat interesting when one thinks of what is available of them on tape.

 

I think there is vastly more stuff of Jumbo available from the 70s, especially in the form that allows one to get a true feel for their work. A lot of Flair stuff that's available from the 70s is from the old Cornette Tapes, which were the Mid Alantic handheld stuff. Loads of JIP, jump cuts, short pieces working to the finishes, etc. How many things exist in full similar to that early Jumbo vs. Bricso, or Jumbo vs. Terry, or the first Jumbo vs. Race title match? With Jumbo, those are drops in the bucket - we have loads of those from the 70s from Classics and the commercial releases.

 

As far as working week-to-week in the 70s, we're never going to get anything from Flair on that. It's not like Crockett was putting Flair on TV weekly like Baba put Jumbo on TV. The US business wasn't like that, about wouldn't be like that for Crockett/Turner/Vince until the 90s. We're just not likely to dig much of that up either as time passes.

 

In contrast, there is quite a bit more of Jumbo's week-to-week work that's out there and that someone like Dan can over time track down. People at home were taping back into the 70s - that's were "lost" stuff like the first Backlund vs. Inoki and the two Race vs. Jumbo one hour matches came from. It's just that Dan hasn't been able to get *all* of it out of sources, and instead is forced by the slow flow to pick off what look like the more important things. But the week-to-week stuff is there. Over time he likely will get it, and push those Season Sets further back, though there may have gaps. We'll *never* have the same equiv for Flair's work.

 

For much of the 80s until he moved out of competative matches, there is a ton of Jumbo available... much of it in week-to-week form via Dan. My recollection is that he has a lot of stuff from the years that he hasn't released yet back to 1982, and is just trying to get 100% of the years before rolling them out. In addition, more of 1980 and 1981 is out there on tape... it's just that Dan hasn't been able to pry it easily out of sources.

 

Jumbo is really well covered.

 

What I've seen of Jumbo's "weekly" work (i.e. tv matches that aren't big matches) in the 70s from some of the disks Dan has gotten is that he's Jumbo. He's the one doing most of the work in matches where he's teaming with Baba to set up stuff later in the series. One of the matches was a early in the series Baba & Jumbo vs. Bobo & Wahoo tag main event. Jumbo and Wahoo would have a UN Title match on 10/03/77 that this was a preview for. The work between the two was such that at the end you *really* want to have Dan track down the UN Title match because it might end up being the best example we'll ever find of just how good of a worker Wahoo was because the two would have to fill 17:49, 8:10, 1:14 of match time over three falls.

 

Point - weekly TV, early series match setting up stuff later in the series, and both Wahoo and Jumbo were good.

 

I'm confident that we'd find a ton of that stuff like that. We'd also find a ton of stuff like the Jumbo vs. Wahoo that never made it to Classics. Such as:

 

11/27/75 NWA Int'l Tag Title: Baba & Jumbo vs. Murdoch & Rhodes

06/02/76 NWA Int'l Tag Title: Baba & Jumbo vs. Jimmy & Johnny Valiant

07/26/78 NWA Int'l Tag Title: Baba & Jumbo vs. Terry Funk & Dick Slater

 

There's just loads of stuff that didn't make Classics.

 

 

 

I agree with Will. The only guys I feel uncomfortable judging are the pre-1970's guys who hardly made tape. I mean, the guys at Wrestling Classics think Liger isn't fit to scoop Danny Hodge's shit, but damned if I know.

I'd like to get more Hodge. But stuff like this where we know the quality of the opponents and can make comps to other US workers:

 

01/03/69 NWA Int'l Tag Title: Giant Baba & Antonio Inoki vs. Wilbur Snyder & Danny Hodge (15:46, 17:53, tl)

01/08/69 NWA Int'l Tag Title: Giant Baba & Antonio Inoki vs. Wilbur Snyder & Danny Hodge (18:08, 4:34, 3:45)

02/04/69 NWA Int'l Tag Title: Wilbur Snyder & Danny Hodge vs. Giant Baba & Antonio Inoki (23:59, 1:03, 2:59)

02/11/69 NWA Int'l Tag Title: Giant Baba & Antonio Inoki vs. Wilbur Snyder & Danny Hodge (21:32, 3:25, 3:42)

 

This series of matches is high on my holy grail list for even just *one* to come out of the vaults. The first was the series opener, so it had to be taped for TV, especially since it set up the rest of the series (which also included a Baba-Snyer NWA Int'l Title match that went 16:31, 3:27, 3:27 and is another grail match).

 

The second was a title change in Hiroshima. The third was the title change back on the second night of a stand in Sapporo, and the first night had a lesser main event. The fourth may not have been taped. But at least two have to be in the can, and possibly three.

 

We're unlikely to get any better example of Hodge's work than those... and probably of Snyder's. One wishes that the cable explosion would hit Japan where one of 100 cable channels out there would want all that old stuff to fill up time.

 

 

John

[ohtani's jacket]

Jumbo was an interesting guy... kinda like a gentle giant who liked folk music and growing flowers. IIRC, he was a really small baby which is why his parents named him Tomomi, which is usually a girl's name in Japan. He grew up working on his family's farm & they were deadset against him being a professional wrestler.

 

It's a shame that Dave didn't cover the Choshu invasion properly. There was a key moment in that feud after their 60 min draw in Osaka... Choshu was barely able to move afterwards and stayed in the locker room while Jumbo went drinking in Osaka... Choshu hated speaking to the press, but he told them simply and honestly that there was no way Jumbo could be beaten. As far as I know, this went a long way to convincing the NJPW fans who'd crossed over to AJPW shows that Jumbo was a great wrestler. Jumbo had a reputation of being the strongest wrestler in Japan, but someone who'd only show his strength when he got angry. This was the way Baba taught Jumbo an "ace" should work. I haven't seen that match, but apparently Choshu moves around a lot showing his "fighting spirit", while Jumbo stays pretty much in the centre of the ring. That's how they recall the match in Japan, anyway.

 

Also, I dunno if this is true or not, but there seems to be two instances in the Jumbo vs. Misawa feud where Jumbo got legit pissed. One involved Misawa and the other involved Kawada. I think Jumbo wrote about this in his book. Kawada stiffed Jumbo in the eye and Jumbo lost his temper.

[jdw]

There was a key moment in that feud after their 60 min draw in Osaka... Choshu was barely able to move afterwards and stayed in the locker room while Jumbo went drinking in Osaka...

I enjoy your riff on Lewis-Stecher, Daniel.

 

 

John

[ohtani's jacket]

I'm not sure what you mean by that.

 

It's a famous story, comes up almost any time someone mentions Jumbo vs. Choshu. Doesn't matter whether it was a work or if Choshu was really blown up, since it works on so many different levels. I'm surprised nobody told Dave about this.

[S.L.L.]

I'm not sure what you mean by that.

 

It's a famous story, comes up almost any time someone mentions Jumbo vs. Choshu. Doesn't matter whether it was a work or if Choshu was really blown up, since it works on so many different levels. I'm surprised nobody told Dave about this.

I believe there was a Stecher/Lewis match that (allegedly) ended with Stecher in the hospital and Lewis out on the town drinking and dancing. Something like that.

[jdw]

Yeah, and the five hour Stecher-Lewis is famous as well and comes up every time people talked about Stecher-Lewis for decades. And Dave happened to hear the Stecher-Lewis story, and wrote about it a few times.

 

Good riff, right down to Baba being in the Toots Mondt role.

 

 

John

[ohtani's jacket]

Eh, I didn't make it up. It was an important part of the feud.

[jdw]

Eh, I didn't make it up. It was an important part of the feud.

If you can find that documented in some puroresu mag or book, please feel free to scan it in with a translation.

 

Not trying to smack you here, since I'd actually love to have some additional ammo on Jumbo.

 

Dave didn't have it in the report of the card, which focused a bit more on the crowd drawn. He also didn't mention anything about Choshu looking bad when talking about seeing the match airing on TV an issue or two later (11/09/85 TV according to Dan's list, and the only match that aired).

 

I have some doubts about the story. Choshu at the time wasn't one to put anyone else over, instead playing the rebel. He also wasn't the most cooperative person in All Japan booking, though it wasn't like Baba was offering up a Jumbo job to him either. When you talk about Choshu not liking talking to the press, it was mutal - there was a comment a time or two in the WON from the era that Choshu was the most hated man inside the business in Japan... and one got the feeling that the press didn't like him. They covered him because he sold issues, similar to PWI writing about Hogan (and putting him on tons of covers) despite them being at war with the WWF. Hogan sold mags, so you couldn't ignore him.

 

So Choshu being "honest" with the press is a stretch. The press taking anything Choshu said as being anything other than a storyline is a stretch. And Choshu at the time putting over a rival to the press is a stretch.

 

Perhaps this is a "rememberance" much like Superstar Graham's "Stone Cold Superstar" delusions - a story that came out decades after the fact, and people nodded along with it because they thought it made sense *now* rather than slowing down to give it much sense if it made sense at the time.

 

By this I mean: I can see after Jumbo tragically died too young, someone asked Choshu about wrestling Jumbo for the obits, and Riki "told the story". Or a reporter "told the story" at that time.

 

And since what was written in the 00's when Jumbo died is far clearer in people's minds, it's the "story" that has stuck with the match and the toughness of Jumbo.

 

FWIW, the same story circulates on the Brody-Flair one hour draw in St. Louis - Brody admitted to being wiped in the locker room afterwards, while it was just another night at the office for Flair who was ready for a night on the town. Larry tells that tale, and I think everyone knows that I take just about everything he says with a massive grain of salt.

 

So...

 

It's a common, common, common "wrestling story" to put over the stronger person (usually the one use to going 60 minutes opposite the guy not use to it). There are probably earlier versions of it than Stecher-Lewis.

 

John

[ohtani's jacket]

I don't know what the source of the story is. I first read about it on Jumbo's wikipedia page, then did a search for it. As far as I'm aware, it's mentioned in this:

 

 

It's a Jumbo memorial magazine. The story is told differently, however, so it may be a myth. The most interesting page I found was a discussion about whether Jumbo really dominated that match, where they went back to the tape -- jdw style

I guess the legend surrounding this match has grown with time.

[jdw]

Yeah, I suspect it was something that came out when he passed away.

 

John

[Resident Evil]

Who does all the commentary for Mid South Wrestling?