The Cancellation of Jim Cornette

[MoS]

I am sure that was done with Bearcat Wright's consent. I doubt Jerry Lawler took permission while referring to a very dated, very racist stereotype. This is without even going into the argument about change being a good thing.

Cornette clearly wants to live in an ivory tower where he can act like it's still 1983. He might be the greatest promo guy in history and is able to talk well enough to gain enough followers to the point it makes him a lot of money. Good for him. But it just makes his opinions progressively more irrelevant. 

[NintendoLogic]

Cornette should know that lesson better than anybody considering how many of his towns the Gangstas killed in SMW. Also, Dave pointed out on Twitter that many of the things done in the Carolinas as late as the early nineties wouldn't have been allowed in northern California even in the late sixties.

[C.S.]

7 hours ago, SomethingSavage said:

I just wanted to say i'm just now seeing this post, and I still won't read what you wrote.

...

Nah, in all seriousness, I hope all is well with you and your people.

And Cornette's still the fucking man. Carry on.

I hope all is well with you too, man.

I actually defended Cornette (kinda, sorta) in the AEW thread.

3 hours ago, Loss said:

I figured this was bumped because just yesterday, in response to recent criticism of Lawler's announcing, Cornette pointed out that Bearcat Wright drew a sellout in 1970 when the heels painted him white, but that sadly today, there would be a movement to kick them off the air. Yes, the world indeed changes.

Or even Piper painting himself half-black at WrestleMania 6.

Times change and what's considered appropriate and acceptable changes. People in major media positions don't have the luxury of being old and out of touch. 

[Coffey]

The irony of Jim Cornette getting fired from NWA for making a racist comment on commentary defending Jerry Lawler for making a racist "joke" on commentary is not lost on me. Maybe that's the point? 

At this point, honestly, Cornette is no better than Russo & might even be worse. Like, I get that Russo is shit as it pertains to pro-wrestling but Cornette is now approaching just being a shit human all around every time he opens his mouth. Regardless of if he's doing it for clicks, says he's just working or whatever, it's a bad look. And that includes every time Brian Last tries to defend him as well. Also because new stories like this keep popping up about Cornette like every week where as I only hear anything about Russo... when someone brings up Cornette.

People getting upset at racist jokes is not them being snowflakes, or soft, or whatever-in-the-fuck, it's them wanting people to get called out on shit instead of everyone smiling, acting like it's OK & encouraging that shit to continue. If people gave Lawler a free pass in 2020 for a commentary remark like that, guess what he'll do the next week? He'll have another one. So yeah, call people out when they do inappropriate shit & make them face the consequences of their actions.

I was watching an old NBA dunk contest on ESPN Classic. It was the Jordan/Dominique showdown, I think 1989? Michael Jordan does his infamous "kiss the rim" dunk from the side of the basket. The commentator says "he calls that that Chinese Superman... because it's slanted!" My first thought was 1. that was super inappropriate and 2. if he was on the air today, he would be fired before the dunk contest finished. Just like the newspaper writer that titled his story "A Chink in the Armor" when writing about Jeremy Lin. In both circumstances I 100% believe Jim Cornette would have tried to defend those people. Both cases, just like with the Lawler defense, he would come off as out of touch & inappropriate in the world we live in. 

He's just not relevant anymore & he's gathering an army of imbeciles that "defend his honor" no matter how ridiculous his hate speech rhetoric gets. Like, it's OK to admit that you were wrong & change with the times. Become a better person. Eddie Murphy isn't going around making his anti-gay jokes like he told in his 1980's stand-ups anymore. So why is Cornette still trying to defend this crap?

[Log]

Great post, Coffey. I think so often people don’t understand that making a flat-out racist joke isn’t the same as a joke that might lampoon racism. They pull out the, “But (insert black comedian) says stuff like that!” excuse and totally miss the point. 

[sek69]

I hate to ever have to defend Russo, but he seems way more self aware than Cornette does these days.  He still sticks to his guns over poor decisions he made, but his "it's just wrestling, bro" take is way more normal than Corny threatening violence on everyone.

[PeteF3]

No, I don't find that take to be normal at all for someone involved in the business. I don't think many of us are all that enamored with making the business your life, but for a lot of people, it is. And not just Cornette. And in some ways "it's just wrestling, bro" is pretty disrespectful to them. It's "just wrestling" but it's also their livelihoods and in some cases the only life they know. It's a healthy attitude for fans, but dismissive to the actual workforce.

[sek69]

I get that, and I don't disagree, but at the same time I'd be willing to bet Russo's far less likely to keel over from a stress induced heart attack too.  Jim internalizing everything he sees as an attack on the business isn't healthy no matter how correct his point might be. 

[Slasher]

Russo is the guy who wanted to run wrestling shows without a ring in place. His lack of "proper" respect for wrestling is well documented. That's nothing new. But yet Cornette lets him get to him way too easily. Instead of dismissing his opinion as a joke and nothing more, he'll derail interviews just to get shots in on Russo. When I was watching the Brawl for All episode, it was surprising how well Russo came across and how poorly Cornette did. And if you look worse than the guy who was admitting that he came up with this to see JBL get knocked out, you probably need to take a step back.

[C.S.]

26 minutes ago, Slasher said:

Russo is the guy who wanted to run wrestling shows without a ring in place. 

That seemed to work well for the Boneyard Match. 

I wouldn't want it to be a regular occurrence, but WWE really could benefit from more outside the box thinking.

I'm not saying Russo - not in 2020 - but he certainly served a purpose in 1997. Cornette, well, didn't. (His booking style was a bad anachronism and Smokey Mountain Wrestling was a creative and financial failure. Yeah, I said it. Even though there was definitely some cool stuff in SMW, most of it was Southern redneck bullshit and racism angles like The Gangstas. And let's not get started on how bad, outdated, and embarrassing WWE was when he was booking.)

Jim Cornette was a great wrestling manager. That's it. That's all. Nothing wrong with that. But Russo absolutely smokes him creatively, even if that creative output probably hasn't aged well outside of those "Best of Raw" highlight DVDs (or whatever they were called) and even if his peak was only a few years in one company, followed by tons of shit. 

Plus, based on recent appearances, Russo - while far from perfect - still has a grip on reality. Cornette - surprise, surprise! - doesn't. 

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Russo > Cornette

[PeteF3]

I heavily disagree that Russo has a grip on reality but for reasons not relating to prowrestlingonly so I'll do a little passive-aggressive "bring it up and leave it at that" bit.

Also, "creativity" is overrated in wrestling.

[C.S.]

47 minutes ago, PeteF3 said:

I heavily disagree that Russo has a grip on reality but for reasons not relating to prowrestlingonly so I'll do a little passive-aggressive "bring it up and leave it at that" bit.

Also, "creativity" is overrated in wrestling.

I assume you mean his personal views, whatever those are. I honestly have no idea about anything he thinks outside of wrestling and couldn't care less. I am referring only to his body of work in wrestling.

I'd love for you to expand on your "creativity is overrated" take, because the lack of it is certainly killing the product.

[The Thread Killer]

Ignoring the fact that Jim Cornette on his worst day is about a million times more creative than Vince Russo could ever be on his best day...making the statement that Russo has "a grip on reality" is laughable on it's face.  Or maybe you agree with him that Hillary Clinton shouldn't have been President of the United States because she was a woman, and after all...women are meant to be subservient to men because they're designed from the rib of a man? Cornette has some absolutely ridiculous, outdated and in some cases totally ignorant opinions.  But to act like Russo isn't just as bad...or even worse...is just letting hatred of Cornette cloud basic common sense.

[SomethingSavage]

2 hours ago, The Thread Killer said:

Ignoring the fact that Jim Cornette on his worst day is about a million times more creative than Vince Russo could ever be on his best day...making the statement that Russo has "a grip on reality" is laughable on it's face.  Or maybe you agree with him that Hillary Clinton shouldn't have been President of the United States because she was a woman, and after all...women are meant to be subservient to men because they're designed from the rib of a man? Cornette has some absolutely ridiculous, outdated and in some cases totally ignorant opinions.  But to act like Russo isn't just as bad...or even worse...is just letting hatred of Cornette cloud basic common sense.

THIS.

Just this.

[MoS]

Cornette booked OVW in the early 2000s and did an excellent job both running a weekly circuit and developing future stars. That is a better record than anything Russo has been involved in that was not directly modified by Vince McMahon. Heyman took over after Corny got inevitably in trouble and he did not do a great job. Further, SMW was certainly not a financial catastrophe. It died because the wrestling industry was in terrible shape and no company could survive without television, but in its initial year or so it did decent business. IIRC, they were actually outdrawing WCW in the same areas.

 

I have not watched RoH, but one of my best friends who is a huge indy fan says Cornette ran RoH into the ground with his terrible booking. So there definitely came a period when modern wrestling passed by Cornette and he could not adapt to it. But to pretend Vince Russo was more deserving of a spot in pro wrestling in 1997 than Corny cuz he was "creative" is more preposterous than Corny thinking Lawler's racist remark should not be criticised. Corny is the reason Kane STILL is an over character after almost 25 years. 

Creativity is terribly overrated because creativity for creativity's sake is awful. Like, I will renounce all worldly pleasures and live in the himalayas as a hermit level awful. And no one exemplifes this more than Vince Russo. "WOULDN'T IT BE AMAZING IF ROSS AND RACHEL GAVE BIRTH TO AN ELEPHANT" is also creative, but it is certainly not a solution to Friends seeing declining ratings. Creativity and innovation have also been used to criticise wrestlers like Bret and Cena, ignoring that formulae work because they make sense and connect with people.

WWE's biggest problem is not a lack of creativity. They find plenty of creative ways to screw over their current talent. Their biggest problem is a lack of sensible booking that has consequences and stakes and result in actual progression of characters and stories. A lot of these stories and characters would progress on fairly predictable lines. Everyone knew Austin would stun the boss. Everyone knew Mandy would eventually side with Otis. Vince Russo would have probably got Otis to screw Mandy again and then form a gay couple with Dolph who hates women and would sabotage all heterosexual relationships. "No one would think of that, bro!! SWERVE, BRO!!!!"

[Big Pete]

Quote

I have not watched RoH, but one of my best friends who is a huge indy fan says Cornette ran RoH into the ground with his terrible booking. So there definitely came a period when modern wrestling passed by Cornette and he could not adapt to it. 

Jim didn't run ROH into the ground. He was a key figure behind their deal with Sinclair which helped get them out of the hole they found themselves in after Gabe. The problem was Sinclair didn't live up to their side of the bargain and the production quality of ROH was rotten. Furthermore their PPV provider GoFightLive was completely unreliable and all of their major shows had terrible issues. The shows would review well on replay, but nobody was willing to order them because they would be throwing their money away.

The biggest mistake Cornette made during his time is that he let the Young Bucks walk. The Bucks actually received a nice push coming off their TNA run, but by 2012 they had seemingly fulfilled their purpose and Jim was happy to move along and book the All Night Express as his ace tag team. Kenny King would later walk out on the company after winning the ROH Tag Team titles and the Bucks would go onto become the biggest draws on the scene. Whether the Bucks fit the aesthetic Jim was going for or not, over is over and their departure sent the message that Jim was behind the times.

 

[MoS]

I don't know/remember the business dealings at that time, but I should have clarified: I meant booking-wise, the quality and appeal of the product went to the ground. It's more a comment on his booking. I also remember some Davey Richards matches that he pushed heavily that were terrible, with Richards doing a gimmick where he would tweet shit like "Wrestling is something I do between my MMA classes." 

[Slasher]

I agree creativity for creativity's sake is not a very good way to put together a storyline and can often serve to the detriment of the story. That said, I kinda get what CS is saying. For the time when Russo was on top, he was more in touch with the mindset of the core audience in the late 90s. The problem is it was usually never any good or compelling in the right way. Russo understood his audience but just was not capable of giving it to them. 

 

This is not to say Russo >  Cornette or anything. Honestly neither guy would be my booker if I owned a wrestling promotion, but I definitely think Jim Cornette has the vastly superior record of booking than Russo. The first opportunity he got to run a company unchecked, he drove it six feet under (WCW) to the point that Vince could buy his most bitter rival for pennies on the dollar. As out of touch as Cornette is, I doubt he would have killed WCW like Russo did.

[Big Pete]

Quote

I don't know/remember the business dealings at that time, but I should have clarified: I meant booking-wise, the quality and appeal of the product went to the ground. It's more a comment on his booking. I also remember some Davey Richards matches that he pushed heavily that were terrible, with Richards doing a gimmick where he would tweet shit like "Wrestling is something I do between my MMA classes." 

Richards was the biggest star in the company and if anything was over-due for a reign. The reason why Jim didn't pull the trigger sooner is because Richards was always one step off from becoming a firefighter or a paramedic or a full-time NJPW talent. In hindsight his reign was a disappointment and Richards always had his vocal detractors, but the fans who followed the product were into his Best in the World 2011 victory.

Jim had no control over Richards' antics outside of ROH. In fact that was one of the biggest gripes Jim had during his time with the company where he had this talented in-ring wrestler who had the ability to be a fantastic in-ring worker but he was always doing and saying some real silly shit.

It wasn't Cornette's best work, but it wasn't as terrible as the diehards pretended it was either. A lot of decisions were blown out of proportion, like they were representative of every booking decision the company was coming up with and ignore a lot of the good work the company was doing at the time. A lot of the guys who were pushed during this period like Adam Cole, Kyle O'Reilly, Michael Elgin, Tommaso Ciampa went onto become the backbone of the company and the product had a clear aesthetic which went by the wayside when Delirious was left to his own devices.

[Loss]

4 hours ago, MoS said:

Cornette booked OVW in the early 2000s and did an excellent job both running a weekly circuit and developing future stars. That is a better record than anything Russo has been involved in that was not directly modified by Vince McMahon. Heyman took over after Corny got inevitably in trouble and he did not do a great job. Further, SMW was certainly not a financial catastrophe. It died because the wrestling industry was in terrible shape and no company could survive without television, but in its initial year or so it did decent business. IIRC, they were actually outdrawing WCW in the same areas.

 

I have not watched RoH, but one of my best friends who is a huge indy fan says Cornette ran RoH into the ground with his terrible booking. So there definitely came a period when modern wrestling passed by Cornette and he could not adapt to it. But to pretend Vince Russo was more deserving of a spot in pro wrestling in 1997 than Corny cuz he was "creative" is more preposterous than Corny thinking Lawler's racist remark should not be criticised. Corny is the reason Kane STILL is an over character after almost 25 years. 

Creativity is terribly overrated because creativity for creativity's sake is awful. Like, I will renounce all worldly pleasures and live in the himalayas as a hermit level awful. And no one exemplifes this more than Vince Russo. "WOULDN'T IT BE AMAZING IF ROSS AND RACHEL GAVE BIRTH TO AN ELEPHANT" is also creative, but it is certainly not a solution to Friends seeing declining ratings. Creativity and innovation have also been used to criticise wrestlers like Bret and Cena, ignoring that formulae work because they make sense and connect with people.

WWE's biggest problem is not a lack of creativity. They find plenty of creative ways to screw over their current talent. Their biggest problem is a lack of sensible booking that has consequences and stakes and result in actual progression of characters and stories. A lot of these stories and characters would progress on fairly predictable lines. Everyone knew Austin would stun the boss. Everyone knew Mandy would eventually side with Otis. Vince Russo would have probably got Otis to screw Mandy again and then form a gay couple with Dolph who hates women and would sabotage all heterosexual relationships. "No one would think of that, bro!! SWERVE, BRO!!!!"

It seems like the biggest issue with Cornette during his time running ROH was his eye for talent. He has a better batting average than almost anyone over the last 25 years in predicting who would be big (he was the first to advocate for both Rock and Cena), but he also missed the boat in a notable way on quite a few people who went on to be successful because he had trouble adjusting to the idea that you can get over now if you can work, even if you don't have the traditional look of a star.

[MoS]

If Corny pushed Richards solely because he was the biggest star in the company, surely he could have found ways to make Generico a centerpiece, despite not approving of his gimmick. Corny clearly had an issue with over acts who did not fit his vision  of what wrestling should be. 

While WWF becoming edgier definitely was a big factor in starting a turnaround, what creative booking idea of Russo played an important role in WWF becoming hot? He was not there when Austin became hot and started feuding with Bret. The Bret heel turn where he would be a face internationally was McMahon's idea and Bret himself played a key role in executing it. Bringing Mike Tyson in was McMahon's idea. So what was Russo's idea? Austin stunning McMahon? The Austin-Dude Love feud in 1998 that really helped solidify Austin as a mega-draw after Tyson got him mainstream attention? Rock turning heel and becoming corporate champion? These are not rhetorical questions: Russo automatically gets credit for the Attitude Era, but what  successful, instrumental angles and storylines was he a crucial contributor to, something that really helped make WWF hot or increase its hotness?

[MoS]

4 minutes ago, Loss said:

It seems like the biggest issue with Cornette during his time running ROH was his eye for talent. He has a better batting average than almost anyone over the last 25 years in predicting who would be big (he was the first to advocate for both Rock and Cena), but he also missed the boat in a notable way on quite a few people who went on to be successful because he had trouble adjusting to the idea that you can get over now if you can work, even if you don't have the traditional look of a star.

This is the gist of what I was trying to argue, except a lot more articulate and on the nose. Thanks, Loss!

[The Thread Killer]

On 4/15/2020 at 8:17 PM, Coffey said:

The irony of Jim Cornette getting fired from NWA for making a racist comment on commentary defending Jerry Lawler for making a racist "joke" on commentary is not lost on me.

Cornette didn't get fired for making that joke.  He quit.  Cornette admitted that the joke (while not intended to be racist) could be perceived as racist.  He was willing to apologize to those who were offended by the joke. His issue (and the reason he quit the NWA) was that Dave Lagana was there when Cornette made the joke, had no problems with it, and never even mentioned it to Cornette.  Cornette was clear that if Lagana had said to him that the joke was inappropriate and wanted him to call the match again, or if Lagana had taken the joke out in post-production, Cornette would not have taken any issue with it. But the moment the controversy erupted Dave Lagana was more than happy to try and put all the heat on Cornette.  Dave Lagana basically apologized on Cornette's behalf without talking to him first, and even acted indignant and apologetic about the joke, when in point of fact Lagana hadn't had any problem with it before people complained.  Cornette quit because he thought  Lagana was being a hypocrite. It's possible the NWA might have fired Jim Cornette for that joke, but I am fairly certain (based on the way the NWA reacted to his resignation) that if Jim Cornette would have apologized for making that joke and been willing to publicly accept blame for the situation, at worst they would have just suspended him.

The big issue here is that Cornette is either unable or unwilling to understand the difference between intent and perception.  I fully believe that Jim Cornette did not make that joke with the intention of saying something racist or offending people.  I believe his sole intention in making that joke was to try and promote Trevor Murdoch.  But he continues to be indignant about the fact that people were offended, and he doesn't get to decide what does and doesn't offend people.

[The Thread Killer]

5 hours ago, Big Pete said:

Jim didn't run ROH into the ground. He was a key figure behind their deal with Sinclair which helped get them out of the hole they found themselves in after Gabe.

I couldn't agree with you more.  The whole "Jim Cornette ruined ROH" talking point is just flat out false.

Jim Cornette was (and still is) close personal friends with Cary Silkin.  Silkin was hemorrhaging money running ROH and was seriously considering shutting the company down, because it wasn't financially viable anymore and was going to personally bankrupt him.  After Cornette got fired from TNA (thanks to Vince Russo, by the way) Cornette agreed to try and help Silkin recoup his losses and avoid going bankrupt. Cornette personally wrote up a detailed business proposal for Sinclair Broadcasting.  He proposed making radical changes to ROH, including establishing a home arena and wrestling school, he basically used the same business model he and Danny Davis had proposed to WWE when they first established OVW.  He knew it would work because OVW was functional and self-sustaining aside from the money WWE was investing.  ROH would operate primarily out of this new location, where they could also have their own television production equipment and studio.  He submitted the proposal to Sinclair hoping to get them to invest in the company. They liked Cornette's proposal so much they bought ROH. Cornette basically brokered that deal and saved Silkin from going broke and shutting down ROH. I honestly believe if it wasn't for Cornette ROH wouldn't even exist right now.

When Sinclair hired Cornette, they didn't hire him to be in charge of creative.  They hired him to produce TV and basically be the liaison between Sinclair and ROH.  Hunter Johnson was in charge of creative.  Cornette had a lot of input and say in what happened creatively, but at the end of the day the main force behind ROH creative was Johnson.  Cornette really likes Hunter Johnson but he has openly stated that he didn't agree with a lot of the creative decisions Johnson made.

His decisions regarding talent have also taken a lot of criticism, some of it is absolutely justified but a lot of it is unwarranted. 

Both Kevin Steen and Sami Zayn have claimed that Jim Cornette didn't like them so he wouldn't book them in ROH, and that isn't true.  Cornette has repeatedly stated that he had three issues with Kevin Steen.  Firstly, he wanted Steen to lose 30 pounds and get in better shape. Secondly he wanted Steen to stop taking so many insane bumps and high risks because he thought it was overdoing it, and desensitizing the fans...not to mention putting himself at unnecessary risk for injury. Cornette was always maintained that Steen was an excellent worker, but he was "doing too much." Finally, Cornette claims Steen was basically a pain in the ass backstage and wanted to book his own angles and only work with his friends.  Cornette wanted Steen to stop arguing with creative all the time, and do what he was asked. Steen wouldn't do any of those things, so Cornette stopped using him. 

As far as "El Generico?"  Jim Cornette had two really unreasonable requests for him, both of which Generico refused to do.  Cornette wanted him to unmask, and stop being silent.  He wanted him to cut promos, because in Cornette's words "the kid could talk his ass off." As soon as Steen and Generico got hired by WWE and had some success, a lot of ROH fans (and Steen himself) took that as some sort of vindication and tried to rub it in Cornette's face, claiming he had missed the boat or been wrong about them.  Cornette pointed out that it was he who had been vindicated, since WWE had made Steen get in better shape, tone down the pointless high risk stuff and he was damn sure not booking his own angles.  Meanwhile, Generico had unmasked and started cutting promos.  Cornette claims that if they had been willing to do that in ROH, he wouldn't have stopped using them.

The whole Young Bucks deal has also been driven into the ground, and a lot of the popular narrative about that situation is bullshit.  Which makes sense, because a lot of the popular narrative about the Young Bucks comes from them.  Cornette freely admits that he didn't think the Bucks were all that great.  He says they don't look athletic enough, they don't sell enough and they're too reliant on doing spots.  But he also admits they were popular with the ROH fans.  The problem was that one of Cornette's main jobs was to keep costs at a minimum.  The Bucks had to be flown in from California to work in ROH.  They weren't local, and that was costing ROH a ton of money. Cornette would have kept using The Young Bucks if they had been closer, but they weren't so he didn't.  Granted, he didn't lose any sleep over that decision because he really didn't see much in them, but he has repeatedly claimed that the main reason he stopped using them was due to travel costs.  The Bucks got butthurt when Cornette stopped using them. Even their biggest fans have to admit The Young Bucks are notoriously thin-skinned and sensitive to any perceived slight or hint of criticism. So they started slagging him in interviews.  Cornette slagged back.  He ran into them at an indy show and made a joke about the fact they'd be better off working an angle because at least people believed in the heat they had with each other.  The Bucks grabbed that and ran with it, telling anybody who would listen that Cornette didn't see anything in them and talked shit about them, but then wanted to work with them when he saw how popular they'd become.  And now they have a book coming out, so I shudder at the commencement of fresh hostilities.  You know The Bucks are going to eviscerate Cornette in their book and you know Cornette will respond in kind on his podcast.

The main voice behind the whole "Cornette ruined ROH" mantra is Austin Aries. He's the one who has told anybody who would listen that Cornette ruined ROH and tried to turn it into "Smoky Mountain of Honor."  And why?  Because Cornette fired him.  Austin Aries was the highest paid member of the ROH roster, but he wanted to stop wrestling and become a manager...and he apparently openly slagged the company every chance he got in the locker room, and encouraged dissension among the other wrestlers.  Cornette and Hunter Johnson asked him to stop doing that, and Aries himself admits that his response was "you're not paying me enough to be quiet."  So they fired him.

Look, I'm not going to deny that Cornette has made some questionable decisions when it comes to talent.  Hell, in ROH he basically wanted to focus a lot of the attention around Eddie Edwards, Davy Richards and Michael Elgin.  Are they Main Event level guys, in my opinion?  Edwards, not really. Richards, no.  Elgin, you've got to be fucking kidding me.  Cornette is absolutely still stuck in the mindset from the 70's-80's where guys had to look a certain way to be big stars.  A lot of his worst decisions have been based around that dated perception.    If you watch the "Breaking Kayfabe" shoot interview Cornette did with Sean Oliver he goes into precise detail regarding what went wrong with ROH. @Big Pete is right, he basically ended up quitting because Sinclair bought the company based on his business proposal, and then proceeded to basically ignore 95% of the stuff Cornette recommended in that proposal. But bottom line is, you can't lay any of ROH's current day problems at the feet of Jim Cornette.

[C.S.]

11 hours ago, The Thread Killer said:

Ignoring the fact that Jim Cornette on his worst day is about a million times more creative than Vince Russo could ever be on his best day...making the statement that Russo has "a grip on reality" is laughable on it's face.  Or maybe you agree with him that Hillary Clinton shouldn't have been President of the United States because she was a woman, and after all...women are meant to be subservient to men because they're designed from the rib of a man? Cornette has some absolutely ridiculous, outdated and in some cases totally ignorant opinions.  But to act like Russo isn't just as bad...or even worse...is just letting hatred of Cornette cloud basic common sense.

This lazy post isn't even worth responding to, but I will anyway...

RIGHT ABOVE YOU, I say that I do not know what Vince Russo's personal views are, nor do I care. Obviously, the example you gave is...wow, and no, I don't agree with it at all. You know I don't, but nice attempt at trolling.

8 hours ago, MoS said:

Cornette booked OVW in the early 2000s and did an excellent job both running a weekly circuit and developing future stars. That is a better record than anything Russo has been involved in that was not directly modified by Vince McMahon.  

I disagree, simply because OVW was never put into a position where it had to make money, and it never did. Russo booking WWE (even modified by McMahon) made money. Russo's output after that stint was pure crap. I will fully admit his peak was only a few short years, with help, never to be replicated again. 

You can argue, correctly, that Cornette was responsible for future stars that did make money for WWE. I'll concede that point. But he was also responsible for abusive BS like the Santino incident, so who knows how many other promising prospects he ran off that we don't know about.

Cornette's ROH stint was mentioned. I don't know enough about it to comment in detail. All I can say is that ROH has been unwatchable any time I've tried over the past several years, but I cannot say for certainty if Cornette was in the company at any of those points. Didn't Corny have massive problems with Kevin Owens and the future Sami Zayn? I'd definitely say that's a mark against him.

Would I hire either Cornette or Russo now? No, of course not. But if I was forced to take one, I'd still go with Russo.

8 hours ago, MoS said:

Creativity is terribly overrated because creativity for creativity's sake is awful. Like, I will renounce all worldly pleasures and live in the himalayas as a hermit level awful. And no one exemplifes this more than Vince Russo. "WOULDN'T IT BE AMAZING IF ROSS AND RACHEL GAVE BIRTH TO AN ELEPHANT" is also creative, but it is certainly not a solution to Friends seeing declining ratings. Creativity and innovation have also been used to criticise wrestlers like Bret and Cena, ignoring that formulae work because they make sense and connect with people.

 WWE's biggest problem is not a lack of creativity. They find plenty of creative ways to screw over their current talent. Their biggest problem is a lack of sensible booking that has consequences and stakes and result in actual progression of characters and stories. A lot of these stories and characters would progress on fairly predictable lines. Everyone knew Austin would stun the boss. Everyone knew Mandy would eventually side with Otis. Vince Russo would have probably got Otis to screw Mandy again and then form a gay couple with Dolph who hates women and would sabotage all heterosexual relationships. "No one would think of that, bro!! SWERVE, BRO!!!!"

Yes and no. Your Ross and Rachel example, while funny, isn't my idea of creativity. (I've never watched Friends, but I'll safely assume an elephant was never on the show, lol.)

I have nothing against formulas. Sometimes they work for a reason, as in the excellent examples you gave.

But when it's ALWAYS formulaic, and always the same exact formula, we get slogs like modern day WWE.

There has to be a balance.

BTW, I laughed out loud, bro, at your Mandy and Dolph swerve, bro.

6 hours ago, Slasher said:

I agree creativity for creativity's sake is not a very good way to put together a storyline and can often serve to the detriment of the story. That said, I kinda get what CS is saying. For the time when Russo was on top, he was more in touch with the mindset of the core audience in the late 90s. The problem is it was usually never any good or compelling in the right way. Russo understood his audience but just was not capable of giving it to them. 

I have no idea if any of Russo's Attitude Era angles have aged well (probably not), but looking back in retrospect isn't always an accurate way to gauge something. It sure as shit worked for the audience at the time. Whether it still works today is almost irrelevant. For all of the re-watches and nostalgia this board likes to take on as pet projects, wrestling was never written with that in mind. It was written for the moment, for the specific audience watching it then, for the time period.

Wrestling is not like a movie or book, and never will be.

WWE still cashes in on the nostalgia of the period, and it still works, because the majority of the audience isn't like PWO actually re-watching this stuff. That is why I said I'd probably still enjoy one of those old "Best of Raw" highlight DVDs but probably wouldn't enjoy a show-by-show re-watch (or even a PPV-by-PPV rewatch).