The greatest cons in wrestling history

[jdw]

WWE took over the contracts of just about everyone from WCW who came in for the Invasion angle. The only buyouts were Booker T and Bagwell, I think.

I don't think that's the case. As someone pointed to below, DDP took a buyout then signed with the WWF. The WWF wanted these guys on WWF contracts, not the old WCW ones. Not just for pay cuts to make them in line with the WWF's pay scale, but also for other favorable things in WWF contracts at a time when all the leverage was in the WWF's favor.

 

Booker is a fine example. There's no way the WWF wanted to pay Book and Page at their WCW rates. So there's double leverage:

 

* if Book and Page want to work, they'll do what the WWF wants

* WCW wanted to pass that money through their books as fast as possible

 

There was talk of TW offering 80% buyouts for low end contracts, down to 40% for higher end. Someone like Nash has the ego to think the WWF would be there when his contract runs, so he'll sit on his ass and get paid 100% and wait it out. Someone like Page, despite the big contract, worries that (i) he's not especially loved by the WWF, and (ii) he's getting a bit old and broken down. If the WWF wants him now for the Taker angle, he probably thinks it's his best chance to get "in" with them rather than piss them off. Negotiate *up* from TW's initial buyout offer, which TW will do because they really want to clear these off fast. Then take what Vince offers.

 

The lesser guys were in the same boat. I mean... where in the hell Mike Sanders going? There was no ECW, no TNA... nothing. And if you're Mike Sanders you still have the dream at the time to be a star, and the only to make it was the WWF. You really think that if Jim Ross said:

 

"Son, we really would like you in the company. But you need to settle off that WCW contract so that we can sign you."

 

You don't think he'd take TW's offer?

 

I *know* they "chose" certain guys to "keep". It doesn't mean that they kept them on their WCW contracts, or that they didn't settle with WCW then sign a WWF contract.

 

John

 

 

Not sure if the associated costs include the ads they promised to buy on Turner networks for several years or if that was just accounted for under regular ad buy

Might have been. It's a cheap dollar amount.

[Bix]

I always heard the story as being that Garvin kept the boat because neither he nor Fuller exposed the business in court.

[jdw]

But the strange thing there was the low price of the sale. Several of the top wrestlers have said that they'd gladly have purchased WCW themselves, if they knew it were going for such a ridiculously low price. Kevin Sullivan has implied that one of Turner's executives took some sort of bribe from the WWF in order to sell WCW for so bizarrely little money, fwiw.

Sully is delusional.

 

The AOL/TW guys wanted out bad. They just wanted to be done with pro wrestling at that point. And looking at what a disaster WCW turned into in the last two years, one can see the point. I suspect that the suits also knew some of the ugly stories inside the company that are similar to the Sleaze Thread, and worse.

 

The biggest problem with anyone buying it was what was gone over time and again back then:

 

* without TV, the value of the promotion was next to nothing

* AOL/TW wanted wrestling off it's networks

* deals to get on other TV fell through fast

 

That was the key thing for Eric's money marks: they couldn't get a viable TV deal.

 

I also suspect that none of the other buyers could play hardball like Vince did in this specific deal. Vince didn't need to take the big contracts because there was no alternative for the top wrestlers. In contrast, any other buyer of WCW would have to take enough of the promotable contracts to (i) continue/re-launch the promotion, and (ii) prevent them from going to the WWF.

 

So without TV and stuck with a lot of expensive contracts (as even guys you might want to keep and promote like Booker had massive contracts), a buyer is pretty fucked.

 

It ended up cheap because Vince only had to take what he wanted. He frankly could have just let the company die in another month or two, or let some money mark buy it and have it die in six months. At that point he could have grabbed the talent he wanted. Instead, he struck at a time when AOL/TW was getting desperate so that he could accomplish two things quickly:

 

* get what he wanted (the tape library)

* kill WCW off (by closing it down, and getting all the IP to prevent someone from promoting as WCW)

 

Smart.

 

Vince has done some dumb things over the years, but he (and/or his team) were pretty brillant here.

 

John

[Loss]

John, there were stories at the time that for some reason, other companies had made higher offers for WCW but they still sold to Vince. What Sullivan is referring to is Stu Snyder, who negotiated the sale on behalf of AOL/Turner and previously worked for the WWF I believe.

[Jingus]

I understand all that JDW; but to the Time Warner AOL guys, Vince's strategy there doesn't matter. They had to know that the company was worth a hell of a lot more than four million; Vince and others would've been willing to pay a hell of a lot more than that. It's just odd to me that they were SO desperate to sell it that they'd knowingly throw away millions of dollars just in order to see the back of it asap. Vince easily would've paid triple the amount he did, if not more, if they'd stuck to their guns and negotiated. Or if not him, Eric's Fusient investors, or someone. I've just never understood them treating WCW like a ticking bomb which had to be disposed of right now as opposed to a month later.

[Death From Above]

That boat story is class.

[jdw]

John, there were stories at the time that for some reason, other companies had made higher offers for WCW but they still sold to Vince. What Sullivan is referring to is Stu Snyder, who negotiated the sale on behalf of AOL/Turner and previously worked for the WWF I believe.

Sully is wearing tinfoil hats: it's conspiracy stuff.

 

Other companies made higher offers only with the understanding they could get TV. Eric's folks walked out when they couldn't get a TV deal: either via staying on TNT/TBS, or via Fox.

 

 

I understand all that JDW; but to the Time Warner AOL guys, Vince's strategy there doesn't matter. They had to know that the company was worth a hell of a lot more than four million; Vince and others would've been willing to pay a hell of a lot more than that. It's just odd to me that they were SO desperate to sell it that they'd knowingly throw away millions of dollars just in order to see the back of it asap. Vince easily would've paid triple the amount he did, if not more, if they'd stuck to their guns and negotiated. Or if not him, Eric's Fusient investors, or someone. I've just never understood them treating WCW like a ticking bomb which had to be disposed of right now as opposed to a month later.

It wasn't worth more than $4M without TV. It was losing money even *with* TV at that time. In the thread above we've got ROH losing money, and it's not like they are paying DDP and Booker $1M+, along with whatever the hell Hall & Nash were up to that point (with a year left on their contracts). What was the running joke about Stevie Ray's contract?

 

It was a money losing company with TV. Take away the producution money / rights fees for TNT/TBS, and take away all house show money since they wouldn't be able to have TV to promote, then take away almost all of an already dying PPV revenue stream because they wouldn't have TV to promote...

 

This was a promotion losing money that would have lost all revenue streams the second they were off TNT/TBS if they didn't get a contract.

 

That's what killed WCW: the decision by AOL-TW to take it off the air. After that, it was dead. Even if they got another TV deal, in the mid-term the promotion would die because of the contracts and the likely massive decrease in tv revenue.

 

Given all we know of Eric, which was completely reafirmed by his time in TNA, there's no way that he was going to come in with the Money Mark and contain the insane expenses. Instead, it was more than likely he'd just be fleecing the Money Mark to keep the ATM running. Again, that's *exactly* what he did coming into TNA. He knew (and still knows) nothing else other than how he believes he created success in WCW: go big scale, spend-spend-spend on Big Names, fight a full scale frontal war with the WWF.

 

I think people want to believe that "something could have been done" with the company when AOL-TW decided they wanted the company off their airways and out of their corporate structure. Especially people in the industy who were sucking on the tit, people covering it who saw their world become a lot more boring, and us fans who loathed a completely WWF-centric wrestling world.

 

Reality?

 

Dead company the moment that AOL-TW wanted to be rid of them. If someone didn't instantly step up and want the programing, it was dead.

 

In a sense, if it was truly valuable, Fox would have bought the thing. Not directly, since AOL-TW might prefer it to die than go to a competitor. But round-a-bout: front someone like Eric's money mark with a letter of understanding on a TV contract, with it clear that the full contract would include (i) Fox equity, and (ii) Fox right to buy the whole thing in a few years. After, if it was still valuable programing, then wouldn't Fox want 4 hours a week to anchor one of their channels like FX?

 

Thing is... it wasn't valuable enough programing to spend millions of dollars not just to buy it, but then to run it.

 

John

[Bix]

Here's something I've never understood:

 

Why was TNN/Spike so against "WCW" Saturday Nitro taking the Saturday night slot that ended up going to WWF Excess, killing the separate WCW brand in the process? I know the old "they refused to have any non-WWF branded shows" story but it doesn't really make any sense. The plan was for WWF guys (including The Rock to make sure they did well, IIRC) to be drafted into WCW since "WCW" with the contracts WWE took over and felt were reasonable buyouts didn't have enough wrestlers for a full roster. Everyone would have known that it was really a WWF show and it would likely have done far better ratings than a two hour recap/magazine show (which almost always did under 1.0). It would have been a WWF-produced show with WWF wrestlers airing WWF network ads.

[Victator]

Vince has done some dumb things over the years, but he (and/or his team) were pretty brillant here.

The best part being the WWF sued WCW for ripping off gimmicks that the WWF ripped off from WCW. How did WCW's lawyers not produce footage of the Diamond Studd from 1991?

[jdw]

Vince has done some dumb things over the years, but he (and/or his team) were pretty brillant here.

The best part being the WWF sued WCW for ripping off gimmicks that the WWF ripped off from WCW. How did WCW's lawyers not produce footage of the Diamond Studd from 1991?

 

It's not clear if it was a case of dumb lawyers, dumb clients, or both. I can't vouch for the lawyers, but I do recall that Madden said some dumb ass things on the Hotline and that his depo wasn't very good. Wrestling is a tough business for an outsider to get, and who knows how good of a job they were able to do in learning enough info to defend the case. I always thought the Vince's own history of predatory practices would make it tough for him to argue his case, and that things such as The Real World Champion made arguing on Hall & Nash / Outsiders pretty tough.

 

John

[Johnny Sorrow]

Wasn't it worded in such a way that the complaint was that they were using their "intellectual property" to portray representatives of WWF on their TV who were, in fact, not employed by Vince?

[sek69]

It wasn't about Hall and Nash playing characters similar to their WWF gimmicks, it was that they were very clearly portrayed as being sent from "up North" to take over WCW. That's what got them sued, the impression that they were WWF employees appearing on WCW TV.

[jdw]

It struck me as a weak argument if WCW had some brains in fighting it. Madden did say some dumb ass things, but the WWF's case wasn't air tight.

 

John

[sek69]

Seemed pretty solid if they were maintaining they were presenting Hall and Nash as invading WWF guys. I mean, WCW was at least smart enough to never mention WWF by name but it was pretty clear the intent was to portray them as agents from the competition. Even the very first time Hall came out with the "you want a war, you got one" line and how they avoided giving either of them a name (which served to not get them in trouble legally by using WWF gimmick names, but also allowed fans to just assume these guys were still Razor and Diesel).

 

I mean, yes someone in WCW should have had enough brains to at least make a semblance of an argument in their favor, but it's not the first time we've seen WWF Legal use their voodoo powers to make opposing council forget how to do their jobs.

[El-P]

Seemed pretty solid if they were maintaining they were presenting Hall and Nash as invading WWF guys. I mean, WCW was at least smart enough to never mention WWF by name but it was pretty clear the intent was to portray them as agents from the competition. Even the very first time Hall came out with the "you want a war, you got one" line and how they avoided giving either of them a name (which served to not get them in trouble legally by using WWF gimmick names, but also allowed fans to just assume these guys were still Razor and Diesel).

Four weeks into the build-up, at Great American Bash, Bischoff asked the question directly "Do you work for the WWF ?" Hall and Nash answer "No."

[sek69]

Seemed pretty solid if they were maintaining they were presenting Hall and Nash as invading WWF guys. I mean, WCW was at least smart enough to never mention WWF by name but it was pretty clear the intent was to portray them as agents from the competition. Even the very first time Hall came out with the "you want a war, you got one" line and how they avoided giving either of them a name (which served to not get them in trouble legally by using WWF gimmick names, but also allowed fans to just assume these guys were still Razor and Diesel).

Four weeks into the build-up, at Great American Bash, Bischoff asked the question directly "Do you work for the WWF ?" Hall and Nash answer "No."

 

 

Pretty sure they did that because the lawsuit was already filed, and they thought doing that would end it.

[Dooley]

Seemed pretty solid if they were maintaining they were presenting Hall and Nash as invading WWF guys. I mean, WCW was at least smart enough to never mention WWF by name but it was pretty clear the intent was to portray them as agents from the competition. Even the very first time Hall came out with the "you want a war, you got one" line and how they avoided giving either of them a name (which served to not get them in trouble legally by using WWF gimmick names, but also allowed fans to just assume these guys were still Razor and Diesel).

Four weeks into the build-up, at Great American Bash, Bischoff asked the question directly "Do you work for the WWF ?" Hall and Nash answer "No."

 

 

Pretty sure they did that because the lawsuit was already filed, and they thought doing that would end it.

 

Even doing that when they did was smart, as far less people were buying the PPV than tuning into Nitro.

[Bob Morris]

The lawsuit WWF filed came after the GAB PPV, not before.

[El-P]

And what was even smarter is that two minutes after they said it, Nash powerpombs Biscoff through the stage. And no one remembers or pay attention at the fact they said they didn't work for the WWF, all the focus is on "OMG, Nash powerbombed Bischoff through the stage". And it was at the time these things just didn't happened, it was fresh and shocking. Man, WCW in 96 was so good.

[jdw]

Seemed pretty solid if they were maintaining they were presenting Hall and Nash as invading WWF guys. I mean, WCW was at least smart enough to never mention WWF by name but it was pretty clear the intent was to portray them as agents from the competition. Even the very first time Hall came out with the "you want a war, you got one" line and how they avoided giving either of them a name (which served to not get them in trouble legally by using WWF gimmick names, but also allowed fans to just assume these guys were still Razor and Diesel).

 

I mean, yes someone in WCW should have had enough brains to at least make a semblance of an argument in their favor, but it's not the first time we've seen WWF Legal use their voodoo powers to make opposing council forget how to do their jobs.

Setting aside the point made below where Nash was clear that they weren't with the WWF, it's still a weak case. What's are the damages? What did the WWF do to mitigate damages (i.e. go on their own TV to say Hall & Nash weren't still working with the WWF)? WCW could have easily pointed to public knowledge that they weren't still with the WWF. Granted, the internet and the sheets weren't big, but they certainly could point to it being public knowledge that the two left the WWF. Then point back to the WWF's own Real World Champion angle.

 

I think WCW had defenseable arguments. I keep saying that WCW did some dumb things in it, specifically Madden. But simply being dumb doesn't really damage the WWF.

 

John

[Bob Morris]

Catching up on other stuff in this thread, there were, indeed, a few contracts WWF took on when the WCW sale took place.

 

Those who were part of the InVasion were Lance Storm, Hugh Morrus, Stacy Kiebler, Mark Jindrak Chuck Palumbo, Sean O'Haire, Sean Stasiak, Shane Helms, Chavo Guerrero Jr. and Billy Kidman.

 

Torrie Wilson wasn't under WCW contract at the time the sale took place.

 

Booker T, DDP and Buff Bagwell all accepted buyouts.

 

Chris Kanyon either accepted a buyout or wasn't under WCW contract at the time of the sale (I'm not sure which it was).

 

The other guys who were part of the InVasion angle were already under WWF contract... the ECW guys (exceptions: RVD and Tommy Dreamer, who had never officially signed with WCW) and, of course, Steve Austin.

 

So the contracts WWF took on were the ones they could justify because the money likely came close to the downside guarantee for a performer of their capacity. I don't think, for example, that Lance Storm made the same type of money that Booker T got, so while WWF wouldn't pay Booker the money he was getting, Lance's contract was likely at a lower salary and thus WWF felt justified in giving him the money.

 

There were other contracts WWF took on, but those guys were never used on TV and ended up getting released at some point, although a couple did re-sign with the company at later times (Shannon Moore was one of them).

[MikeCampbell]

Vince McMahon and Jim Ross indirectly con Eric Bischoff into giving Hall and Nash $400,000 raises.

 

A nice little nugget from Kevin Nash on the nWo Episode of the Legends Roundtable. When JR announced on RAW and "Diesel" and "Razor" would be back next week, Bischoff freaked out because Hall and Nash weren't under official contract at the time. So Eric offers them an extra $400 grand each to sign a contract. Then kicked himself in the ass (with Hall and Nash standing behind him laughing) when they all watched RAW the next week and saw who exactly Ross brought out.

[jdw]

From Corey's site:

 

WWF @ Wheeling, WV - Civic Center - August 19, 1996

Raw tapings:

 

8/19/96 Monday Night Raw

WWF IC Title Tournament Quarter-Finals: Marc Mero (w/ Sable) defeated Steve Austin via disqualification at 8:39; during the contest, Jim Ross announced Diesel and Razor Ramon were on their way back to the WWF;

 

9/9/96 Raw Championship Friday

The Undertaker pinned Salvatore Sincere with the chokeslam and the tombstone at 9:55; during the bout, Ross said there had been a snag in negotiations between the WWF and Razor Ramon but negotiations were going well with Diesel

 

 

9/16/96 Monday Night Raw

featured Jim Ross announcing that Diesel & Razor Ramon would be on Raw the following week;

WWF IC Title Tournament Semi-Finals: Marc Mero (w/ Sable) pinned Owen Hart at 9:26 ; prior to the bout, Jim Ross - who left ringside earlier in the braodcast - returned with Pat Patterson who verified Ross' claims to having Diesel & Razor on the show next week and said he would be the guest referee for the tournament finals the following week; WWF President Gorilla Monsoon argued during the match Scott Hall and Kevin Nash would not be appearing and Ross was misleading the audience

Hall & Nash were under official WCW contracts long before August 19. They were under contract when they first appeared on Nitro.

 

This is just more of Nash talking out of his ass. At this point, if Nash said the Pacific Ocean was full of water, we probably should go down to the beach to verify it.

 

John

[Dooley]

He said at the time they were working under a deal memo and not an iron-clad contract.

[jdw]

Now way in hell that's the case. They were leaving the WWF for big money guaranteed contract. Ponder it from each side:

 

Hall & Nash side: They would never have wrestled a single match in WCW without a locked in contract that protected them in case they got hurt.

 

Eric side: He never would have put them on TV without a locked in contract for fear of them pulling a Luger or a Pillman.

 

Nash is talking out of his ass. He's been caught in enough lies that I'm pretty gobsmacked anyone would believe him.

 

John