Is the empire crumbling before our eyes?

[El-P]

Would they even let Walter do his über-stiff style of work in the main roster though ? I mean Sheamus or Big E. would probably take it without any issue, but apart from those two... 
He's a guy I'm still on the fence about. I'm not sure how comfortable I am with his style TBH. Even a guy like Ishii doesn't brutalize his opponents like he does. I dunno. Considering I have no issue with some pretty crass hardcore stuff, maybe it's just a cognitive dissonance. That being said, I can't lie about the fact him vs Danielson would probably be something quite special.

[NintendoLogic]

WWE sounds like the worst place on Earth to work for. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if this is where Roman's "acknowledge me" catchphrase comes from.

[El-P]

Vince is a sociopath. The crocodile tears when he'll die are gonna be spectacular, but he is a complete sociopath. Talk to me like that IRL and I'm flipping you off and leave immediately, boss or no boss or whoever.

[Kadaveri]

2 hours ago, El-P said:

He's a guy I'm still on the fence about. I'm not sure how comfortable I am with his style TBH. Even a guy like Ishii doesn't brutalize his opponents like he does. I dunno. Considering I have no issue with some pretty crass hardcore stuff, maybe it's just a cognitive dissonance. That being said, I can't lie about the fact him vs Danielson would probably be something quite special.

When Jim Cornette reviewed Walter vs. Dragunov on his podcast he said Walter's offense is safe and praised him for using tricks to make stuff look more damaging than it really is that nobody else uses anymore.

[El-P]

30 minutes ago, Kadaveri said:

When Jim Cornette reviewed Walter vs. Dragunov on his podcast he said Walter's offense is safe and praised him for using tricks to make stuff look more damaging than it really is that nobody else uses anymore.

Hum... when I see the bloodied, bruised chests of Walter's opponents, I'm not sure I totally buy that. Then again, I remember Meltz said once that an american worker told him that Ishii's work was actually mostly quite light (you can see it in the way he throws his elbows, especially earlier on, but some of these chops to the throat look like hell). I remember watching that Walter vs PCO match and although I did love the sheer insanity of it, the bruised meat of PCO was legit disturbing.

[MoS]

It's his chops that do the most visual damage. Some wrestlers like Bret Hart despise chops, some love them. Dunno how Corny feels about them. 

[NintendoLogic]

I haven't listened to Cornette's comments, but I imagine it was something to the effect of WALTER using tricks for stuff like blows to the head and directing the really stiff shots at safe places like the thick parts of the chest and back.

[KawadaSmile]

But WALTER isn't the only one who turns people's chest inti groundbeef, tho. Drew also has some monster chops and I remember vividlu Strong making Bryan look like a victim of an accident at the Greatest Royal Rumble.

 

If anything, WALTER using a chop to brutalize people is safer than him spamming German suplexes or powerbombs.

[El-P]

Considering his love for classic Flair vs Steamboat, which was saturated with endless chop sequences, I guess he has nothing against it.

I dunno, I totally understand workers who don't like them, because it can come off like a cheap way to get a reaction (and really now, if there was a spot that was bastardized by a guy like Flair, that's it, not that I mind it at all, but it's always funny to hear people complain about this or that move being overdone in modern wrestling...). Interestingly enough, two of the smartest wrestlers in the last 15 years, Okada and Tanahashi, despite working in the country that made stiffness the in-thing, based their style on a totally opposite approach, much more reminiscent of what Bret would do for instance in the US.

And yes there are different approaches depending on the context too. You can argue most lucha chops look completely weak and ridiculous, but they absolutely work in a lucha libre context. While the infamous Kensuke Sasaki vs Kenta Kobashi epic chop exchange, which can be looked at a ridiculous display of useless stiffness from the perspective of a guy like Bret or Lance Storm, actually was awesome in the big show japanese context, and really the entirety of Suzuki vs Danielson stems from this philosophy.

 

[El-P]

9 minutes ago, KawadaSmile said:

If anything, WALTER using a chop to brutalize people is safer than him spamming German suplexes or powerbombs.

Disagree. If done right and safely, these are much less painfull and damaging. Having your flesh turned into blue, disgusting bloody mess doesn't seem fun at all, while taking a safe german suplex (Kurt Angle style for instance) or a safe powerbomb is probably a piece of cake in comparison, as you're also in control of your own bumping.

[KawadaSmile]

I mean, those chops are no joke and probably must sting a lot, but say, compared to a Lesnar suplex or an Awesome bomb, it looks like the least awful option.

And regarding what you mentioned above, about context behind the use of the chop, I think WALTER can also work around in a way to make it more meaningful, if anything. If he can use it as a finishing move in a title match, chances are he's not going to spam the shit out of it against a random jobber, instead using it as a 1HKO.

Even against Dragunov he wasn't spamming it like crazy. He does have other basic offense that looks great and brutal (and safe!). 

 

All in all I just wanna see him and Sheamus beat the shit out of each other.

 

[El-P]

5 minutes ago, KawadaSmile said:

compared to a Lesnar suplex or an Awesome bomb, it looks like the least awful option.

I said if done *safely*. 

If I were a pro-wrestler, I'd want to work against Toru Yano every day and that's it.

[KawadaSmile]

Absolutely. That reminds me of a Tiger Mask W episode in which the comedy wrestler actually worked the main character into a knot saying "it takes a lot of skill to make people laugh".

When you look at how people like Yano, Kuinshibo Kamen and Ebessan are praised... makes sense.

 

And gotta be honest, someone stretching the shit out of me with nasty submissions, like a Milano or a Bryan, sounds even worse. It's also very much safe but looks like hell.

 

[El-P]

1 minute ago, KawadaSmile said:

Absolutely. That reminds me of a Tiger Mask W episode in which the comedy wrestler actually worked the main character into a knot saying "it takes a lot of skill to make people laugh".

Yeah, nothing is tougher than comedy. And yet nothing gives you less symbolic capital in pop culture than making people laugh.

2 minutes ago, KawadaSmile said:

And gotta be honest, someone stretching the shit out of me with nasty submissions, like a Milano or a Bryan, sounds even worse. It's also very much safe but looks like hell.

It really depends on how stretchable you are though. One amazing thing about Manami Toyota was her flexibility, which made the submission holds look amazingly painfull, when really she was probably just having a good stretching seance ! 

Speaking of which, I really hope we get that Danielson vs ZSJ match. Just heaven.

[strobogo]

Walter uses a lot of the same tricks that Regal used in WCW to look brutal but was safe, and they're mostly things that guys stopped doing in the 1970s for whatever reason. You'll see a lot of Dick Murdochish 70s techniques taken to a different level in Walter matches if you're really watching to study.

[sek69]

Also  if someone is pale like Dragunov, it doesn't take much to make them redden up, which would make something like a chop look a million times more brutal. Source: I'm a pale dude and I've had play fights with my nine year old that made me look like I was in a war. My kid does work stiff though, so there's that. 

[joeg]

10 hours ago, El-P said:

Would they even let Walter do his über-stiff style of work in the main roster though ? I mean Sheamus or Big E. would probably take it without any issue, but apart from those two... 
He's a guy I'm still on the fence about. I'm not sure how comfortable I am with his style TBH. Even a guy like Ishii doesn't brutalize his opponents like he does. I dunno. Considering I have no issue with some pretty crass hardcore stuff, maybe it's just a cognitive dissonance. That being said, I can't lie about the fact him vs Danielson would probably be something quite special.

Walter beats the shit out of guys, but his work is safe. Its a lot of hard open handed strikes to the chest and shoulders. Yeah it leaves a bruise, but he doesn't do anything that actually could result in injury. There are no closed fist strikes, there are no kicks to the head/face, there are no head drops or spikes, there's minimal running the ropes, there are no big bumps at weird angles, there are no big bumps period, there are no dives. Walter's style of work is a lot safer than lets say Kenny Omega or Okada or Seth Rollins and looks so much more dangerous because he does leave his opponents bruised and covered in welts. 

 

[ragemaster]

7 hours ago, El-P said:

Disagree. If done right and safely, these are much less painfull and damaging. Having your flesh turned into blue, disgusting bloody mess doesn't seem fun at all, while taking a safe german suplex (Kurt Angle style for instance) or a safe powerbomb is probably a piece of cake in comparison, as you're also in control of your own bumping.

You not in control of your own bump's on those moves, up to your opponent on how you land. You just jump to make it easier for them to do the move to you, more likely to be injured on those bumps.

But Walter chops are not something I would like to experience, anymore than a Vader punch/ forearm combination. I don't think they worse than flair/wahoo/Tenryu/ kobashi at their stiffest. I think a lot of it is how his opponents are booked to die after one chop from him, rather than get into a major chop war. 

 

 

[SirEdger]

8 hours ago, El-P said:

Hum... when I see the bloodied, bruised chests of Walter's opponents, I'm not sure I totally buy that. Then again, I remember Meltz said once that an american worker told him that Ishii's work was actually mostly quite light (you can see it in the way he throws his elbows, especially earlier on, but some of these chops to the throat look like hell). I remember watching that Walter vs PCO match and although I did love the sheer insanity of it, the bruised meat of PCO was legit disturbing.

But considering in hindsight that this is the match that ignited PCO's comeback in the independent scene, I'm sure it was all worth it for him.

So you can pretty much thank Walter if we get to see PCO work 40 dates in GCW in 2022.

[joeg]

In the Walter PCO match, the most dangerous parts were PCO's bump on the apron and the bump on the floor. 

[El-P]

15 hours ago, joeg said:

Walter's style of work is a lot safer than lets say Kenny Omega or Okada or Seth Rollins and looks so much more dangerous because he does leave his opponents bruised and covered in welts. 

Okada's style is pretty safe, there's maybe one tricky bump in his usual match lay-out, which is the cascading down the top rope from the dropkick.

As far as leaving his opponent bruised and covered in welts, well, that's exactly the point I was making earlier in references to not being sure how comfortable I was with this. There is stiffness and there is needless level of stiffness and I'm not sure what to think about WALTER's game. If you *need* to leave your opponent bruised and covered in welts for it to be compelling, what does that really say about your work ? It was referred earlier that some guys like Bret Hart did not like the chops, which is the heart of this discussion really. For a guy like Bret, and many old school US style workers like Martel (who said about Booker T "You have to convince the audience, you don't have to convince me"), it was supposed to be an illusion. And although there is a much different mentality in Japan, guys like Tanahashi (and Okada) really seem to share that point of view. And then there's stiff work, and then there's stiff work that aims at leaving bruises and welts, which is yet another level. It's interesting to watch a guy like Ibushi who at times will kick someone hard in the chest or leg, and at other time will very obviously work light as hell and chose to do the thigh slap.

15 hours ago, ragemaster said:

You not in control of your own bump's on those moves, up to your opponent on how you land. You just jump to make it easier for them to do the move to you, more likely to be injured on those bumps.

Obviously I'm not a worker so I don't know for sure, but since I mentioned about those moves as "safely executed", I think it's safe to say that a nice powerbomb can lead to a simple flat back bump in which you can use the arms on the side to deflect the impact. As far as german suplexes and side-suplexes, I've seen guys like Ibushi, Naito, Misawa or Kobashi absolutely taking a head bump on purpose from guys who never drop people on their heads otherwise (it was actually one of the cheap ways Misawa would add danger to matches that had no doubt in their results otherwise, which really struck me as poor judgement on every level), so it seems there is some degree of control. And again, these are regular pro-wrestling bumps (suplexes, powerbombs) that you are supposed to take to some extent. Ending up with melted bloody flesh on your chest, not so much. And I would not blame anyone that would not want to take that kind of offense because again, if the only goal is to actually make you bleed and bruised up, you can argue that it's a shitty way to work. I'm not saying WALTER is *only* about that of course, I'm just discussing that specific, but important, aspect of his game which can leave me a bit uncomfortable at times.

There was the infamous case of Sid telling Benoit he would not take the chops back in WCW I believe.

[Kadaveri]

Okada's style probably isn't that safe when he was a broken down wreck by 32 years old.

[El-P]

We're talking about from the point of view of his opponents. Yeah, I can take that dropkick, also Money Clip me all day long. His tombstones are always clean as hell too. Also, if you've watched the G1, he's not even close to be broken down, but that's beside the point.

[Mad Dog]

On 10/13/2021 at 8:11 PM, El-P said:

Funny tidbit, the former Salina de la Renta talked about her experience at the Performance Center. So they had her work matches and cut no promo at all. The amazing sense of talent at the Performance Center, as always... And then she did not hear from them. And now that she's doing some OnlyFan stuff alongside Alicia Atout, needless to say it's not a given she'll end up there eventually. Would love to see her in either IMPACT or AEW, can be a great heel manager.

They have this obsession with making people not do what they're good at. Look at all the natural faces working heel and vice versa.

[NintendoLogic]

Leaving bruises and welts is part of convincing the audience. How believable would it be for two guys to seemingly beat the hell out of each other and not leave a mark? Obviously, blading your chest like Tenryu did against Kobashi is the way to go.