El-P Posted April 26, 2020 Report Share Posted April 26, 2020 10 minutes ago, Laz said: over the omission of clarifying details, still ignores the majority of IWC criticism. Whatever. Details have been clarified. You don't listen. Or don't get it. Or don't want to get it. I love when someone talks about being within the MAJORITY too, as if that was any kind of argument. I do think the MAJORITY of the AEW audience considers Omega as a star though, considering, well the reaction his big matches get. But what do I know... The "ok boomer" line I would use if I didn't think I was older than most people on this board. (does writing it "sTrAwMaN" makes it kind of an ironic putdown of sorts, like "movez" ? Well, doesn't make the post I was refering to less of a strawman) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted April 26, 2020 Report Share Posted April 26, 2020 Can we make a Strowman? Or a Braun? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted April 26, 2020 Report Share Posted April 26, 2020 A bRaUn, I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stiva Posted April 26, 2020 Report Share Posted April 26, 2020 On 4/25/2020 at 12:37 AM, El-P said: As always, AEW gets more laser focus criticism than any other company ever. The jobber did not "control most of the match", it's just factually wrong. Also, Omega did not even use nor even tease (I don't think) his actual finisher, so in term of storytelling, it still looks like this was a heated competitive showcase, at worst. It's like Bret Hart ending a competitive jobber match with his elbow drop of doom and not bothering to use the sharpshooter. Yeah, this is so gonna hurt him after he had one of the greatest match ever (again) on the last PPV. Seriously now... I'm not even sure you believe that. Go look back at the threads during Bryan's run to Mania and tell me that AEW has half of the laser focus WWE had then. People were dissecting entire Stephanie promos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted April 26, 2020 Report Share Posted April 26, 2020 6 minutes ago, Stiva said: I'm not even sure you believe that. Go look back at the threads during Bryan's run to Mania and tell me that AEW has half of the laser focus WWE had then. People were dissecting entire Stephanie promos. Oh I believe it. Dissecting promos leading to the main event (because it was the main event in the eyes of the fans then) of the biggest show of the year that finally had the absolute biggest most over guy since CM Punk against Trip after years of being fucked over doesn't seem like a head scratching issue as opposed to people losing their shit over a meaningless competitive squash on a no-audience show during the most irrelevant period of shows you can dream of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laz Posted April 26, 2020 Report Share Posted April 26, 2020 Did you have the internet in 2002ish? The gruff Omega gets is nothing compared to every Raw, SmackDown, weekly TNA PPV, ROH show, etc. Analyzing wrestling is kinda what we do as wrestling fans on the internet. You're just annoyed because the critique has turned toward an act you enjoy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted April 26, 2020 Report Share Posted April 26, 2020 I was bitching about dumb shit about pro-wrestling on the internet in 1999 already. Not that it's something to be proud about... 29 minutes ago, Laz said: You're just annoyed because the critique has turned toward an act you enjoy. The critique ? Who the hell is "the critique" ? If you knew me a tiny bit you'd know I don't give a flying fuck about what people think about my favourites. I'm a Raven fan (that reference will fly over your head since it's an old personal running gag on this board). The fact is you've only responded by strawmen and factually false statements. So, there. Whatever indeed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laz Posted April 26, 2020 Report Share Posted April 26, 2020 I'm very interested in the factual inaccuracies I've posted, and the alleged strawman, for that matter. As for your implication that Mox/Hager didn't get bad reviews? Check out my pro/con list from that week's show. I said something to the effect of "the first 10 minutes are great and the next 20 are bad." In fact, I haven't seen any praise for it, really. Maybe somebody has, but not anybody I've paid attention to. But false statements and strawmen, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted April 26, 2020 Report Share Posted April 26, 2020 14 minutes ago, Laz said: I'm very interested in the factual inaccuracies I've posted, and the alleged strawman, for that matter. I already talked about your strawman before and you responded with a very twitter-like "lol sTrAwMaN" kinda statement. As far as factual inaccuracy, you talked about a jobber "controlling most of the match". Which is not true. He had some burst of offense, but he did not "control most of the match". That's simply not what happened. So there. But honestly, the mere fact you called it Omega's best match in AEW is so totally ridiculous, I have no idea why I even waste my time at his point. And yeah, that jobber was pinned by a secondary (at best, as it's never used as a finisher in a real competitive match) spot. So how does that makes Omega look bad when he did not even bother to use a finisher ? Basic psychology that flies over the head of people I guess. 14 minutes ago, Laz said: As for your implication that Mox/Hager didn't get bad reviews? Check out my pro/con list from that week's show. I said something to the effect of "the first 10 minutes are great and the next 20 are bad." In fact, I haven't seen any praise for it, really. Oh, so you are "the critique". My bad, I did not realize. Well, as far as praise, Charles loved it, for one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laz Posted April 26, 2020 Report Share Posted April 26, 2020 ...this is what I get for trying to argue against somebody that not only doesn't know what a strawman argument is but also doesn't understand what a critique means. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted April 26, 2020 Report Share Posted April 26, 2020 Holy shit, really ? @C.S., I blame you for this debacle ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.S. Posted April 26, 2020 Report Share Posted April 26, 2020 2 hours ago, El-P said: Holy shit, really ? @C.S., I blame you for this debacle ! What the hell did I do? I'm almost afraid to go back and read the thread now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.S. Posted April 26, 2020 Report Share Posted April 26, 2020 15 hours ago, El-P said: People are just mixing their own opinion with facts, Except, I actually really like Omega... But even you have to concede that he is not as over in AEW and doesn't have the same main event star aura that he had in NJPW. For whatever reason, his goofy charm doesn't translate as well here. This thread really blew up, so if there's anything specific you want me to respond to that I didn't, LMK. 15 hours ago, El-P said: Ryan Satin, a journalist ? Well, I did put the word in quotes. 7 hours ago, Laz said: Chastises use of "ok boomer," pulls the "sTrAwMaN" defense over the omission of clarifying details, still ignores the majority of IWC criticism. Whatever. Are you referring to me or @El-P? Because I'm the one who criticized "OK, Boomer." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted April 27, 2020 Report Share Posted April 27, 2020 1 hour ago, C.S. said: What the hell did I do? I'm almost afraid to go back and read the thread now. You and your odd takes. Don't. It turned into a total mess. 29 minutes ago, C.S. said: But even you have to concede that he is not as over in AEW and doesn't have the same main event star aura that he had in NJPW. For whatever reason, his goofy charm doesn't translate as well here. I think the "goofy video-game lover gaijin" definitely had a specific appeal to the Japanese audience. But he's not been pushed as the Man in AEW yet either, so there's time. A few months back, Hangman Page was struggling finding his way. And Britt Baker was not working as a babyface. I just have faith in this company. Maybe because they managed to get so many guys who came from nowhere over and Cody turned himself into a legit main event guy, something that seemed impossible in WWE and even a bit forced when he was working ROH a few years ago. It's not that I agree with every choice they make. Before the shutdown, I was not feeling the Big Swole push one bit for instance. Don't see much at all in her (yet ?). I hope my girl Shanna gets a push when things go back to normal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.S. Posted April 27, 2020 Report Share Posted April 27, 2020 39 minutes ago, El-P said: You and your odd takes. Thinking Satin is an unprofessional fool is an odd take? (Okay, I know you mean Omega...) 39 minutes ago, El-P said: I just have faith in this company. Maybe because they managed to get so many guys who came from nowhere over and Cody turned himself into a legit main event guy, something that seemed impossible in WWE and even a bit forced when he was working ROH a few years ago. Oh, I agree... I think Kenny will be fine in the long run. But you have to understand the initial disappointment of him coming in from NJPW with all this buzz and "legendary status" - people who hadn't seen him at least knew of him because of that - but then he joins in AEW and it's almost like "That's it?!" Kind of like what someone - Cena? - said about Punk on the WWE DVD. Even though it came across as an assholish remark, there was actually a lot of merit to it. Of course, half the time, WWE was probably actively sabotaging what it had with Punk. At least we can be confident that's not the case with AEW and Omega. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted April 27, 2020 Report Share Posted April 27, 2020 I would say that's more a general critique I've had of AEW than a specific one to Omega. They needed to assume that their audience didn't know who anyone was other than Chris Jericho and Jon Moxley and present everything that way. I do think they've done a great job of getting over their truly homegrown stars like Darby Allin and Sammy Guevara, but I think they've assumed too much in the case of not just Omega but the Young Bucks and maybe even Cody. They needed introductions as if they were fresh faces on national television, which they are, even if a lot of the audience indeed knew who they were. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FMKK Posted April 27, 2020 Report Share Posted April 27, 2020 8 hours ago, Loss said: I would say that's more a general critique I've had of AEW than a specific one to Omega. They needed to assume that their audience didn't know who anyone was other than Chris Jericho and Jon Moxley and present everything that way. I do think they've done a great job of getting over their truly homegrown stars like Darby Allin and Sammy Guevara, but I think they've assumed too much in the case of not just Omega but the Young Bucks and maybe even Cody. They needed introductions as if they were fresh faces on national television, which they are, even if a lot of the audience indeed knew who they were. From what I've read elsewhere, those guys seemed to anticipate a lot of criticism that they were pushing themselves too much and tried to overcorrect out of the gates. I think Meltzer has mentioned that they didn't want to be seen as similar to Hogan, Nash etc. in WCW. But really, Jericho got that balance right and proved that you can be the top star and be protected in the booking while still elevating others. He's played a big part in Darby and Sammy getting so over in the early days of the promotion. I think Cody has come closer to getting that balance right than Omega and The Bucks, but the Hangman feud was heating up so well that I think they weren't far away from being as hot as they were if only we could still have shows with crowds and the full crew. If they were able to keep things going as they had been, I think the inevitable Omega vs Page singles match would've been the hottest in the promotion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Migs Posted April 27, 2020 Report Share Posted April 27, 2020 On 4/25/2020 at 10:46 PM, Tim Evans said: About Omega, I hope when AEW starts doing shows in front of a crowd in 2021, they turn Omega heel. I think him vs Cody could be very good. I didn't have a problem with his match with Angels. Mostly that was cause I wasn't paying attention cause Tony and Jericho were killing me on commentary. I thought the Omega-Cody matches in 2018 were a bit underwhelming, although I think if you flip the dynamic with Omega as the heel they might be better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted April 27, 2020 Author Report Share Posted April 27, 2020 The big difference I see in AEW compared to his indy run is that Cassidy is not doing entire matches of meta bullshit. There is a Cassidy vs. Cabana match on YouTube that made me roll my eyes and was one of the dumbest things I had ever seen. There was another match from Austin that I thought was equally as stupid. Two matches and I had written the guy off. However, AEW has really been smart about allowing him to play up that shtick but with the other wrestlers not playing into the bullshit. He can have his show off moments but when it comes time to wrestle, retain the character but actually wrestle or get your ass beat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted April 28, 2020 Report Share Posted April 28, 2020 I've only really seen Cassidy in AEW, but I don't see anything to complain about how he's been presented there. Nobody in AEW sells his weak/lazy offense, so he has to actually try to inflict any damage. It might be different on the indies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted April 28, 2020 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2020 4 hours ago, NintendoLogic said: I've only really seen Cassidy in AEW, but I don't see anything to complain about how he's been presented there. Nobody in AEW sells his weak/lazy offense, so he has to actually try to inflict any damage. It might be different on the indies. This was a match I saw of him on the indies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Migs Posted April 28, 2020 Report Share Posted April 28, 2020 I mean, Jervis is a pretty exaggerated character. When he worked serious workers in the mold of PAC on the indies (I saw him work Jon Gresham and Homicide, for example), his matches tended to look like what we're seeing now, with guys no-selling the jokes and him having to up the intensity to win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted April 28, 2020 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2020 It's not my cup of tea and not what I want to watch. Same goes for the Cabana match where Cassidy is holding a beer the whole time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Migs Posted April 28, 2020 Report Share Posted April 28, 2020 1 hour ago, goodhelmet said: It's not my cup of tea and not what I want to watch. Same goes for the Cabana match where Cassidy is holding a beer the whole time. I'm not trying to get you to like that match - just pointing out that you're bagging on his indy career using a match where he's wrestling another guy that also does a lot of meta comedy stuff. Even in his indy run, if you put him in with a serious worker you'll get the output he's had in AEW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.S. Posted April 28, 2020 Report Share Posted April 28, 2020 Question for anyone who has seen a lot more of him: Has Colt Cabana ever not been completely awful? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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