Congress requests WWE drug testing records

[Bix]

Oh, and smkelly, didn't you love the 2nd loser leaves town match between average looking Jerry Lawler and short but fit Bill Dundee?

 

Lawler has taken his fair share of big bumps in his career. Probably a lot more than other performers of his era. His backwards over the top rope bump has been a pretty regular spot in his matches. Yet, somehow, he seems to be injury free after almost 40 years in. He's also been free of drugs (steroids, painkillers, whatever) and alcohol. Dynamite Kid, who handsomed himself up to your standards with steroids (and also did any drug he could get his hand on), is a paraplegic in a wheelchair with 1.5 legs. Mick Foley is a lot more messed up than Lawler, and bumped closer to Dynamite, but he's always been drug free and can function okay. Foley and Dynamite both had a lot of extra weight (different kinds, but they work the same as far as taxing their bodies in taking hard bumps).

 

I don't even know what my point is, but...yeah.

[Sean Liska]

Man I don't even know. SMkelly's post is so crazy and oblivious to reality.

 

You basically say "he is fat, disgusting, made me sick and he deserved to die.. but I am saddened by this loss, I really am."

No, I think the point was that it is the fans who are at fault for demanding certain body types and forms of wrestling. I could see that point in ROH when it comes to in-ring. But plenty of non-roided up looking guys have drawn money in wrestling and are currently drawing money in MMA. Jeff Hardy was the biggest breakout drawing card of the last couple years and he's an average looking dude that wears a shirt to the ring. And the WWE in-ring style is whatever they want it to be, the money is made in the promoting and the characters. Guys like Cena, Rock, and Batista aren't know for crazy bumps.

[Bob Morris]

Man I don't even know. SMkelly's post is so crazy and oblivious to reality.

 

You basically say "he is fat, disgusting, made me sick and he deserved to die.. but I am saddened by this loss, I really am."

No, I think the point was that it is the fans who are at fault for demanding certain body types and forms of wrestling. I could see that point in ROH when it comes to in-ring. But plenty of non-roided up looking guys have drawn money in wrestling and are currently drawing money in MMA. Jeff Hardy was the biggest breakout drawing card of the last couple years and he's an average looking dude that wears a shirt to the ring. And the WWE in-ring style is whatever they want it to be, the money is made in the promoting and the characters. Guys like Cena, Rock, and Batista aren't know for crazy bumps.

 

And then there are the fans who go around crying about how "I don't demand anything from a wrestler, so how can you say anythng is my fault?" while bashing Cena because he's a "shitty wrestler" and going ga-ga over the latest match with "sick bumps."

 

Note: I'm not disagreeing with you, because there are plenty of fans who get too demanding of wrestlers and don't bother to appreciate matches for their storytelling quality, instead being more interested in the amount of bumps being taken. But I'm sure you can relate that those types of fans are the most defensive about pro wrestling and the ones most likely to play the "personal responsibility" card.

 

But that being said, smkelly's logic is still poor reasoning, because while Umaga may have been overweight, I think it's safe to say that he would still be alive if he wasn't abusing steroids and painkillers... and those two factors are a running theme with wrestlers dying young. And Bix is correct about those wrestlers who didn't have terrific builds, but still proved they could draw crowds and work smart matches that people loved.

[sek69]

I'm still puzzled by the random ad hominem attack on liberals in the middle of all that. I guess maybe it was intended to be more outrage porn for the littlegreenfootballs crowd?

[artDDP]

Wrestlers stick around until they are 70. There are many willing to take insane bumps for little to no money. The business doesn't draw in the most stable people. A lot of them can't resist the comfort of drugs.

[El-P]

So the WWF does the sime kind of business strategy the modeling companies and porn companies do - they utilize men and women with physically attractive bodies that will promote sexual desires thus increase attendance and viewership.

Sexual desire ? I knew wrestling had strong gay overtones, but I never knew it was that strong. So, basically you mean Vince fetish of big muscular guys like Orton, Batista and Cena is only a way to promote sexual desires to his audience ? You mean 12 year old boys ? Well, I know the divas are jerk-off material for 14 years old virgins, but I'd never guessed that was the case of Orton and Batista. Still, WWE needs to promote more bears like the Andersons. Bears promote sexual desire too you know.

 

Most absurd post I've read in a long time, and that covers a lot of ground !

[Herodes]

If anything, wrestling has missed a massive opportunity by not actively seeking out the wider gay viewership which they are in a position to do. I know it sounds cliche but WWE should explicitly target the gay dollar when they have the likes of Cena, Orton, Batista muscleboys and twinks like Evan Bourne, The Miz, Cody Rhodes etc. I think they'd be very succesful if they did a full magazine/TV blitz aimed at the gay demographic. The Orton/Cena I Quit match with a helpless Cena hanging from the ring post in handcuffs while Orton beat him with a kendo stick was basically dungeon fetish stuff. You don't think Gabe could capture a far larger vieweship by marketing Dragon Gate USA to a gay audience rather than the tiny niche of workrate smarks? There's a reason why there are so many Jim Powers/Warlord/Scott Putski custom comps with fruity descroptions on Ebay...

 

PS I am straight etc etc but it's clear to me WWE has failed to tap into a huge revenue stream by not courting the gay demographic more explicitly, something certain japanese and Mexican promotions have been far more successful at.

[El-P]

I agree in theory, but the wrestling scene and audience is way too homophobic for this to work though. Gay bashing has always been a sad part of pro-wrestling, just like xenophobia. What they would gain in gay audience, they would loose elsewhere in their traditionnal audience who probably don't want to watch "gay stuff" despite the fact that two grown men in their underwear touching themselves and pretending to fight, well... The other thing is, I don't think the performers would be able to deal with it. I'm not sure what is the % of gay performers in wrestling. It doesn't seem to be that much, but maybe we don't know everything.

I'm not familiar about the japanese and mexican promotions would dealt with this niche audience. Well, joshi puroresu with Chiggy had clear lesbian thematics (LLPW was basically a promotion for lesbians), but in men's promotion I can't think of anything that clear. It's an interesting case tough. Not familiar about Dragon Gate, although I heard the audience was mostly feminine thanks to the good boys-band look of its performers, so I guess there's something there that could be done.

[Herodes]

I don't think WWE would have to change anything in their presentation to accomodate gay viewers but just target the gay media more, have features in gay magazines and TV shows that could target that audience without necessarily alienating their usual fanbase. Basically be more 'gay friendly' since as you say, these are weekly TV shows that have muscled guys in underwear rolling around anyway. But yeah there is that homophobia there which means I don't think we're ever going to see the day when there is a top babyface or a badass heel who also happens to be openly gay but doesn't skip around the ring or wear makeup or do any of the usual gay wrestling schtick.

 

I thought Dragon Gate attracted a large gay audience in Japan and AAA in Mexico has (or had) various strippers and the transvestites. ROH recently was featured in the Village Voice magazine but I think they tried to shy away from it, which seems silly for an indy promotion that has such a finite, limited niche fanbase.

[El-P]

The original Goldust could have been an amazing character, playing with gay stereotypes that homophobic people are afraid of to fuck with the mind of his opponents and win matches. The fact that Marlena could have been bisexual too would have made the entire thing even better since there was basically nothing *wrong* with them being gay/bisexual, it's just the fact that the audience and the babyfaces would have been uncomfortable with it. Of course that would have sent back the entire audience to think about them being uncomfortable, about them maybe being homophobic, that would have been something quite deep infact. So of course it had no chance of happening, and before you knew it, they brought Roddy Piper and his gay bashing face act. And then you got Goldust "in depth" interview in which he comes "out of the closet", revealing that Goldust was just a role and that him and Marlena are in fact husband and wife and that they have a beautiful daughter and whatnot, the typical great american family cliché. Goldust was dead by then, it was stripped of anything but his makeup.

 

Same thing could have happened with the arabian guy they had (forgot his name). The idea of a guy that was booed just because he was from arabian heritage, and yet being an american-born citizen, was great, because it sent back the picture of the prejudice arabian people (and indians, sikh etc.. whatever could be put together with muslims) had to deal with after 9/11 in the american society. But of course, they made him a "terrorist" soon enough, so there's no ambiguity and to confort their audience into booing the evil arabian guy.

 

These are two missed opportunities of having some relly deep, interesting angles in wrestling that would go beyond the stupid homophobic and xenophobic aspects that is usually promoted. But then again, Vince isn't exactly a progressive guy, and the casual wrestling audience isn't the brighest either. I wonder if we'll see some social progress of that nature in wrestling, or if it'll always be very low end entertainment using the same tired and insulting clichés about gays, woman, ethnicity other than white and foreign lands...

[Herodes]

That's true, although I would never expect any sort of social commentray or exploration of real issues from wrestling. It's unashamedly low-brow and honestly that's part of the reason I like it. If I want my cultural fix I'd look to literature or film, but I prefer my wrestling to be stupid and on the whole will only ever really appeal to the lowest common denominator. However purely from the bottom-line financial perspective, I'd think attracting a large demographic like the gay market which is perfect for wrestling would be a wise move. Same goes for the hispanic market which I think they've lost in recent years.

[kjh]

The original Goldust could have been an amazing character, playing with gay stereotypes that homophobic people are afraid of to fuck with the mind of his opponents and win matches. The fact that Marlena could have been bisexual too would have made the entire thing even better since there was basically nothing *wrong* with them being gay/bisexual, it's just the fact that the audience and the babyfaces would have been uncomfortable with it. Of course that would have sent back the entire audience to think about them being uncomfortable, about them maybe being homophobic, that would have been something quite deep infact.

There was nothing all that deep about the original Goldust character; it was just a facade to thinly disguise the political incorrectness of the gimmick. You can't send the message that there is nothing *wrong* with Goldust being gay when he's out there groping his opponents. Same goes for Mohammed Hassan.

[El-P]

There was nothing all that deep about the original Goldust character; it was just a facade to thinly disguise the political incorrectness of the gimmick. You can't send the message that there is nothing *wrong* with Goldust being gay when he's out there groping his opponents.

That there was nothing wrong with Goldust being (or not being) gay wasn't the point of the gimmick. The point was, his outrageous homosexuality (or at least what he projected) was seen as a menace and as an agression by the babyface, which was even better since the babyface in question was super macho Razor Ramon. In case of Adonis or The Genius, the homosexuality was just ridiculed, it was just "look how this fag looks stupid and effeminate". With Goldust, it was threatening, which is what made it different and a lot more interesting at first. Of course it was never used to its full potenial, even with Razor, but still, the seeds of something really disturbing for the audience was there. It lasted like 3 months or so before becoming your usual gay-bashing crap with Roddy, but it was there.

[El-P]

That's true, although I would never expect any sort of social commentray or exploration of real issues from wrestling.

Well, me neither, but sometimes there are something to read through the lines. ANd I admit I would have marked out huge for such angles. A little bit of complexity is always good. That's why the Bret vs US angle was so great. Bret was basically right about the US fans turning their back on him and the values he carried for years. It was not a black and white heel turn like Hogan with the nWo. It was more subtle and that's what made it so fun. The fact that RAW was taking place in Canada from time to time made things even better, as the entire dynamic with the audience was turned upside down despite both performers (Bret and Austin) playing the exact same role.

Anyway, I'm rambling. Wrestling is most of the time more like porn...

[smkelly]

The use of the "Seven" quote as justifcation was priceless. It really was. Reminds me of people I knew in high school who would quote dialogue from TV and movie characters in term papers.

I see what you did there. As though you're above using quotes from cult classic films...

Are you claiming you have never, not once, used a movie line/quote in a conversation?

 

Oh, and smkelly, didn't you love the 2nd loser leaves town match between average looking Jerry Lawler and short but fit Bill Dundee?

 

Lawler has taken his fair share of big bumps in his career. Probably a lot more than other performers of his era. His backwards over the top rope bump has been a pretty regular spot in his matches. Yet, somehow, he seems to be injury free after almost 40 years in. He's also been free of drugs (steroids, painkillers, whatever) and alcohol. Dynamite Kid, who handsomed himself up to your standards with steroids (and also did any drug he could get his hand on), is a paraplegic in a wheelchair with 1.5 legs. Mick Foley is a lot more messed up than Lawler, and bumped closer to Dynamite, but he's always been drug free and can function okay. Foley and Dynamite both had a lot of extra weight (different kinds, but they work the same as far as taxing their bodies in taking hard bumps).

 

I don't even know what my point is, but...yeah.

Liking a match with ordinary looking guys is a problem because? It's not like Lawler had back boobs flopping around and looking like a pregnant cow. Anyway, Lawler has that natural coolness to him like Harley Race.

And how do you know Lawler doesn't/hasn't do(ne) drugs or tipped bottles back? Did he tell you this - if so - you believed him? If anything, THAT would be laughable.

I like how you insinuate that I am gay, very original there Bix.

Again, how do you know Foley has always been drug free?

[Herodes]

Pregnant cows and quotations from Seven...priceless. By which I mean awful.

 

Just for you I hope they book a Vader, Booger and Big Daddy V vs Abdullah the Butcher and The Headhunters match which will be a wonderful backboobie-fest, even if that means you won't be able to jack off to the wrestlers since they don't meet your aesthetic standards.

[Bix]

The use of the "Seven" quote as justifcation was priceless. It really was. Reminds me of people I knew in high school who would quote dialogue from TV and movie characters in term papers.

I see what you did there. As though you're above using quotes from cult classic films...

Are you claiming you have never, not once, used a movie line/quote in a conversation?

I don't think he is. I think he's saying what I sad: That it's ridiculous to quote a fictional serial killer make a point about "normal" social behavior.

 

Oh, and smkelly, didn't you love the 2nd loser leaves town match between average looking Jerry Lawler and short but fit Bill Dundee?

 

Lawler has taken his fair share of big bumps in his career. Probably a lot more than other performers of his era. His backwards over the top rope bump has been a pretty regular spot in his matches. Yet, somehow, he seems to be injury free after almost 40 years in. He's also been free of drugs (steroids, painkillers, whatever) and alcohol. Dynamite Kid, who handsomed himself up to your standards with steroids (and also did any drug he could get his hand on), is a paraplegic in a wheelchair with 1.5 legs. Mick Foley is a lot more messed up than Lawler, and bumped closer to Dynamite, but he's always been drug free and can function okay. Foley and Dynamite both had a lot of extra weight (different kinds, but they work the same as far as taxing their bodies in taking hard bumps).

 

I don't even know what my point is, but...yeah.

Liking a match with ordinary looking guys is a problem because? It's not like Lawler had back boobs flopping around and looking like a pregnant cow. Anyway, Lawler has that natural coolness to him like Harley Race.

And how do you know Lawler doesn't/hasn't do(ne) drugs or tipped bottles back? Did he tell you this - if so - you believed him? If anything, THAT would be laughable.

I like how you insinuate that I am gay, very original there Bix.

Again, how do you know Foley has always been drug free?

1. The line about Dynamite wasn't a "u r ghey" accusation. It went along with the same point you already made: That you (and your theoretical peers) enjoy wrestling more if the performers are physically attractive, regardless of sexuality.

2. Lawler has a shitload of enemies who call him on a ton of shit, and they've never said anything about his claims to have not drank or done drugs. Foley has less enemies but the ridiculously jaded Dave Meltzer, who's sort of an expert on this, has said that he never did any drugs.

3. You said you wanted to see "diesel like fullbacks" which Lawler decidedly is not.

 

Seriously though, as I said earlier: There are barely any fat guys in major league wrestling (I make the distinction because so many small indies let anyone wrestle) history who fit your grossout criteria. Bastion Booger was a gimmick built on gross behavior and an unflattering haircut/costume. Abdullah didn't get absolutely ridiculous looking until late in his career. The McGuire Twins and Happy Humphrey were novelty wrestlers who are only remembered because of their Guinness presence. Big Daddy V was a short-lived gimmick built around how he looked in a singlet but he looked like a comic book villain and it worked. The Headhunters looked more like prime Abdullah and were fun to watch. I can't think of anyone else who comes close. Who are you even talking about? Dick Murdoch (who really just had a gut), Adrian Adonis, and Buddy Rose (until he got out of control) were more "normal fat" and in the ring, were athletic as anyone. Yokozuna was incredibly agile and his fat all went to his lower body, concealed by tights, plus he was told to gain weight to get the big push when he went to the WWF (he was much more normal before that). I can't think of anyone other than the McGuire Twins and Happy Humphrey a that fits your criteria which is basically "LOL lookit the fat dude/lady with a gunt on a Rascal." By virtue of being athletic performers, I can't think of any other wrestlers who were like that.

 

And while I'm not calling you gay, if you're not watching wrestling to jerk off, who the fuck cares how they look? Most of the best Japanese female wrestlers were very butch. Oh wait, that's right, you can't watch women pretend to fight because it's unnatural for them. Like how girls shouldn't poop, either, right?

[jdw]

Head drops got introduced because they looked cool, and for a while, people accepted them, at least in part because people who theoretically knew more like Dave Meltzer and others would say that they weren't as legit as they looked.

Headrops weren't introduced because they were "cool". They were introduced because wrestlers thought they gave an aura of danger and got a pop. One gets a pop, so someone else does it. Pop, more. Another pop, still more.

 

The majority of "headrops" are *not* as legit as they look. Play it live and be unaware of what you're watching, and it looks like a backdrop drive should knock Kobashi out and/or break his neck and/or crack his skull and/or concuss the shit out of him. Watch it closely and you might pick up on what the two are attempting to do to make it "not hurt" or "not hurt much". Christ, Kobashi was in good enough shape after the first in their famous match to sell it in a theatrical fashion rather than sell that he was knocked out. Headrops aren't anymore "legit" than a gore.

 

I don't think anyone ever argued that headrops weren't what they looked like: dangerous risky moves with a narrow margin of error that popped fans.

 

What was fairly slow in coming was people making arguments that the headropping wasn't worth the risk, and actually contributed to escalating the risk as they were getting more heat than many safer elements of matches.

 

There were people making that argument no later than 1998, and possibly earlier... but not a whole lot earlier.

 

What was even slower is how long it took after the argument was made for the worm to turn strongly on it. Headrop Lovers are now seen as being as crackpotty as those who want to see Foley thrown through more cage ceilings. But that took a long time to happen, and I'm there still are pretty prominent people who just don't give a fuck. They might mouth a "that was a sick move" comment, but in the end you'll see a ****1/2 rating.

 

John

[jdw]

Just to be clear, I'm not massively disagreeing with your comment, Bix. A little symantic disagreement, and a bit less extreme in my comment. I wouldn't agrue that headrops are "safe". Dangerous, risky moves that likely cause some damage/pain (either at the moment or accumulation of years of bumping) to parts of the body even when done in a "protected" fashion. But they also aren't what I would call "legit".

 

John

[S.L.L.]

 

Wow, that post was so crazy, it actually brought Spunk out of Internet wrestling message board retirement just to point out how crazy it was. (Hi, Spunk!)

 

I posted this at DVDVR as well.

 

Although I am saddened by the demise of one of the best booked big men the WWF has ever produced (until being squashed into oblivion by Lashley) I feel no resentment towards the WWF or wrestling in general. The men and women who lace up their boots and voluntarily enter the squared circle under their own power know the associated risks and dangers of professional wrestling. If they don't, they should not be in the ring in the first place - but that is besides the point, a disclaimer if you will.

I'll be fair and say that this isn't a far-fetched thesis. There's a lot of blame to go around for wrestling's troubles, and the wrestlers who casually accept their lot definitely deserve some blame. That doesn't absolve WWE higher-ups and the biz in general of guilt, but "Umaga knew what he was getting into, he brought in on himself for being a wrestler" is not actually far-fetched.

 

As a wrestling fan, though, I'm not sure how one manages not to feel resentment towards the profession that systematically kills off the people who entertain you. You can blame the wrestlers for idiotically going along with it, sure. But not sure how you feel no resentment over the situation being what it is in the first place. None of my other hobbies ever make me question whether or not I'm partly responsible for an epidemic of deaths. Why wrestling? Why does this have to be so fucked up?

 

"As it (pro wrestling) has evolved, so has the need to do more risky looking stunts, and that's why guys get a lot of bumps and bruises, and you can sort of make the correlation that that leads to more painkillers," Eck said in the CNN story. - http://pwtorch.com/artman2/publish/WWE_New...cle_37197.shtml

That is not wrestling's fault, nor the WWF's. Japan has seen a similar increase in head drops and death defying spots because of the audience becoming desensitized of the normal collar and elbow tie ups and working an arm for forty-five minutes.

When the fuck was this? I've seen Rikidozan matches - the beginning of puroresu - and it was never about collar-and-elbow tie-ups and 45 minutes of armwork. Never. Not even in fucking Rikidozan matches. Rikidozan matches were about Lou Thesz being a dick and Rikidozan not tolerating that shit and chopping him in the throat. They don't look like Dragon Gate, but they're quite a bit more modern than "collar and elbow tie ups and working an arm for forty-five minutes". And that was the beginning of puroresu. When you talk about "increase in head drops and death defying spots because of the audience becoming desensitized"...when is this? At the very, very earliest, the late-70's rise of Fujinami might qualify. Have you seen 60's and 70's puro? Even putting aside that 50's puro doesn't match that description, 60's and 70's stuff certainly doesn't match it any better. I mean, Baba and Inoki both worked holds more than Rikidozan did, but they certainly weren't standing around in armbars for 45 minutes.

 

Fujinami didn't come about due to desensitization. Fuck, Fujinami, Inoki, and a broken-down Baba all coexisted rather nicely throughout the late-70's and 80's. Jumbo, too. Choshu and Tiger Mask came in, and they all coexisted. Hansen, Hogan, Andre, Brody, and Dynamite all came through, and they all coexisted. Sure, styles would change over time. They always do. But it hardly seems like a result of desensitization as much as of the natural evolution of a given style. Sometimes, this evolution has taken ill-advised paths, but it doesn't mean they're forced to take them because fans were becoming "desensitized". Fuck, puro nowadays probably has as much headdrops and death-defying spots as it's ever had, and the industry is in the shitter. So obviously, this isn't what the fans are demanding. One of the last guys in puro to be a really consistent draw was old, broken down Misawa throwing a bunch of elbows. He puts Marufuji and KENTA in the main event and no one gives a shit. Desensitization, my ass.

 

The same can be said about American wrestling, when two technical wrestlers are working holds and selling like they did in the 80s the WWF crowd yells "boring".

 

What 80's wrestling are we talking about here? We're certainly not talking about 80's WWF are we? Yeah, nobody wants a bland technical champ like Hulk Hogan nowadays.

 

Who are these bland 80's technicians that you're talking about. Ric Flair, who claimed technical mastery before getting the shit kicked out of him and hitting a guy in the balls to escape with the belt? Jerry Lawler, who had better technical skills than he was given credit for, but usually was just happy to punch the shit out people? Was Dusty Rhodes a bland technician? Was The Junk Yard Dog? Or the Von Erichs? Dundee? Steamboat? Savage?

 

WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE?

 

ROH crowds enjoy more technical wrestling but they wouldn't enjoy an entire card of technical wrestling - they want the strong style the Japanese uses i.e head drop suplexes and dangerously hard strikes.

 

ROH is a niche product that's failed to make in-roads to the mainstream despite their emphasis on "the strong style".

 

Since the end of the kayfabe era wrestlers have had to adopt more realism into their matches - which relates to more dangerous moves and strikes.

 

They haven't had to do anything except accept that their long-hidden secret - which really hadn't even been a secret since the days of Frank Gotch at the earliest - was out, and that they were no less popular in spite of it. It's certainly true that wrestling struggles to this day to completely let go of kayfabe, resulting in this bizarre semi-kayfabe that's been one of the more destructive forces in wrestling IMO. But nobody's forcing them to do that. Nobody's forcing them to crank up the realism of something that everyone will know is fake no matter what they do. They just do it, because it's wrestling, and it's fucked up like that.

 

To make something that is known to be fake look real, people will eventually get hurt.

So you take steps to minimize the damage. Injury is inevitable, but that doesn't mean you throw up your hands and say "go ahead and kill yourselves because we can't make wrestling 100% safe".

 

The WWF has received a ton of harsh words and criticism over the years about wanting a particular looking wrestler in their rings. Well, no shit. It is like Penthouse having mammoth women grace their pages and covers - no one would buy the magazine except the men who love fat chicks, and that niche isn't large enough to sustain the profit margins Penthouse enjoys and expects.

OK....except it's been demonstrated many, many, many, many times throughout wrestling history that the WWE "One Body Type to Rule Them All" isn't the only one that gets over. Like...you know...Umaga's body. So, not exactly a relevant comparison.

 

The same can be same about the WWF, when Big Dick Dudley or the Bastion Booger come out most people feel sick to their stomachs, they should because fat people are disgusting. As John Doe said on Seven: "An obese man... a disgusting man who could barely stand up; a man who if you saw him on the street, you'd point him out to your friends so that they could join you in mocking him; a man, who if you saw him while you were eating, you wouldn't be able to finish your meal."

Bix kinda nailed this one for me. I wonder if you think Vince McMahon's idea to be the storyline father of Stephanie's baby was a good one. After all, as Noah Cross said in Chinatown, "most people never have to face the fact that at the right time and the right place, they're capable of anything".

 

So the WWF does the sime kind of business strategy the modeling companies and porn companies do - they utilize men and women with physically attractive bodies that will promote sexual desires thus increase attendance and viewership.

This one's been nicely covered, too. But then again, as Frank Booth said, "Baby wants to fuck! Baby wants to fuck Blue Velvet!"

 

It is unfortunate that people have to use unnatural methods to procure a body of perfection, but that again leads to the point that the men and women know the risks - unless they have been living under a rock for the last twenty years.

 

Which is true, but again raises the question of whether or not those risks really have to be there. On the other hand, the big decision makers in wrestling have rights, just like the Scorpio Killer in Dirty Harry. Why can't we just leave them alone?

 

Having a strong looking body makes it more realistic as well. How believable is it when a huge fat man wrestles for twenty minutes? Everyone knows a fat person, imagine them orchestrating a twenty minute athletic solo event. Completely unbelievable, and let alone a disgusting visual.

I would think it's extremely realistic if they could - you know - actually do it. I mean, it's one thing when somebody in wrestling does something that seems unrealistic even though it would be possible in real life, like certain types of no-selling. They're pretending to do something that doesn't seem real, and it takes you out of the moment, even if not everyone who gets hit in the knee spends the next half-hour clutching at their leg, unable to walk in real life. When Umaga works a 20+ minute match with John Cena, it's pretty hard to argue that it's an unrealistic feat when he is actually having a 20+ minute match with John Cena. Reality and realism and not the same thing, and fiction usually prefers realism to reality, but this is like looking at an object in real life and claiming it's Photoshopped.

 

On the other hand, this reality may be unpalatable, and thus better off ignored and erased from history. Perhaps someday, will be able to do that, and the harsh, terrifying reality of fat guys working 20+ minute matches, in the words of Amon Goeth, "will be a rumor. They never happened. Today is history."

 

Because of his size, Umaga had to use unnatural remedies to negate his massive body i.e steroids and massive amounts of pain-killers, I doubt baby aspirins would cut it for a man who was well over 300 pounds. He had to perform at a high level, like in the 2007 LMS match against Cena - he was incredibly athletic, unnaturally athletic to be precise. He took the risks and has paid the consequences.

OK, but there are steps the business can take to remedy this, and they don't. Umaga fucked up, no doubt, but how does that absolve the business from blame? Is responsible behavior solely the purview of the working man? I suppose there's only so much one can really expect from management. I mean, who can really blame Mr. Potter for stealing from George to drive the Savings & Loan out of business? Sure, it'd be terrible if George did something like that. He's just "a miserable little clerk crawling in here on your hands and knees and begging for help. No securities, no stocks, no bonds. Nothin' but a miserable little $500 equity in a life insurance policy". Hell, that guy was worth more dead than alive! But we can't hold Potter to standards. That'd be crazy!

 

Honestly if there is anybody to specifically blame it would be the fans. We want more, we want the biggest, we want the best. We don't want forty-five minute snooze fests between out of shape grocery shelf stockers, we want the smash mouthed brawl and head drops from two diesel like fullbacks. It is our fault that men are jumping off ladders, crashing through tables - we wanted the insane violence and the performers give it.

 

Actually, most people just want charismatic figures who can tell a good story. That's how it looks to me, anyway. But I'm probably wrong. Society wants reckless endangerment and the most jacked-up, sexy bodies science can give us. You see, our morals, our code, it's a bad joke. Dropped at the first sign of a flabby, shirtless body or a single armbar. We're only as good as the world allows us to be. But you've shown us. When the chips are down, these...these civilized people, they'll eat each other. You're not a monster. You're just ahead of the curve! AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

 

And like liberals, once we have gotten our way and realize how fucked up it is, we cry and bitch.

 

I'm a pretty apolitical dude, but this seems like a somewhat misguided comment.

 

In boxing, the boxers have to put on a show and throw huge damaging haymakers and take absurd amounts of punishment to please the crowd instead of strategically placing their blows and avoiding punishment.

 

Actually, Dave, they usually have to either win, or throw the fight in a convincing manner in order to swindle gamblers. Entertaining the crowd is an ideal side effect, but it's at best, goal #3.

 

Is it really just me? Is everyone else in the world - including all non-wrestling fans - looking at everything through pro wrestling eyes? No, real competitive athletes don't need wins and championships....they need faces!

 

Blame yourself.

 

But as I said, I am saddened by the death of Umaga.

As are we all, I'm sure. And that grief will surely lead many of us to project our character flaws, our failings, our hatreds, and even our sexual leanings onto others. But the important thing is that we assign no blame whatsoever to the wrestling business.

 

Or am I being obtuse?

[Bix]

Just to be clear, I'm not massively disagreeing with your comment, Bix. A little symantic disagreement, and a bit less extreme in my comment. I wouldn't agrue that headrops are "safe". Dangerous, risky moves that likely cause some damage/pain (either at the moment or accumulation of years of bumping) to parts of the body even when done in a "protected" fashion. But they also aren't what I would call "legit".

 

John

Yeah, it's a semantic argument. I agree with you as far as the actual issue.

 

What I was trying to say about the "not as legit as they looked" point was that they were painted as so expertly done that they were on the safe side as far as bumps go. I remember asking Dave Meltzer about the how the Ganso Bomb bump could be worked at all on an early WOL show. His answer was all about skill and Misawa and Kawada's trust from knowing and working with each other, etc, and at the very least he implied that they weren't close to as dangerous as they looked. Plenty of people forwarded the meme about how they tuck their heads just right at the last second and aren't actually getting dropped on their skulls. 10 years later, the guy who probably took the most AJPW/Noah head drops died from them.

 

I think the over-reliance on the head drops in Japan turned people off a little bit, then ROH using them even more without even building to them turned people off a lot more, and then everything else snowballed with Nowinski/Benoit/etc, eventually leading to Misawa's death causing much more re-examination.

 

That said, looking back, it's pretty ridiculous how blood marks were chided for being barbaric vampires by the "classier" sheet writers and readers who championed Cactus Jack and the AJPW head drop style. Which isn't to say that blading is not inherently ridiculous, but that it didn't do close to the damage of the almighty workrates.

[jdw]

Agreed. That's fairly accurate of Dave, and along the lines of what I was talking about with the "sick move" comment one moment and ****1/2 at the end.

 

I think by the early part of this decade the blood vampires, garbage fans and headrop lovers were all pretty much lumped into a "They kill themselves to entertain us!" group and ridiculed. It was a large group of fans, so it's taken years to see it shrink. Of course there still are plenty of people who get off on it.

 

John

[Bix]

I think by the early part of this decade the blood vampires, garbage fans and headrop lovers were all pretty much lumped into a "They kill themselves to entertain us!" group and ridiculed. It was a large group of fans, so it's taken years to see it shrink. Of course there still are plenty of people who get off on it.

In hindsight, the bloodbath fans probably got the brunt of it in the '90s because it was easy to place the "vampire" tag on them.

[kjh]

Speaking of the dangers of headdropping, Andrew "Test" Martin was suffering from chronic traumatic encephalopathy at the time of his death.

 

Which is a bit worrying given that Test wasn't a wrestler renown for taking nutty risks in the ring like a Chris Benoit or Mike Awesome.

[El-P]

Even worse, to think that Dawn Marie of all people suffers from chronic head pain because of the bumps she had to take, for basically no reason at all... It's scary.