Congress requests WWE drug testing records

[Wahoos Leg]

So let me get this straight...

 

smkelly wants "realism" in his wrestling, so he prefers guys who have physiques like Cena.

 

How many guys do YOU know walking around in everyday life who are as ripped as Cena?

[Death From Above]

This thread now officially covers the spectrum of every reason I gave up watching wrestling. Well done.

[S.L.L.]

That doesn't absolve WWE higher-ups and the biz in general of guilt

Firstly and most importantly, it is the problem of the wrestler. They have in fact chosen a career with few ups and years of unpleasant downs. Like I chose to be a Marine, having the forethought that I could very well die, and not always die from combat or from enemies, it wouldn’t be fair to blame the military for my death if I was to die in combat – I voluntarily joined. Men who choose to be ironworkers and work a few hundred feet off the ground, it is their choice to risk their lives on a daily basis – they volunteered.

OK...but being in the Marines means you're part of a military organization. It's an organiztion whose specific purpose is to protect against serious threats to the country. Life-or-death risk is something that obviously comes with the territory, and there's no way to remove it. Even with that in mind, military tactics can allow operations to be carried out more effectively without taking any greater of a loss than necessary. So even in a place where death is an inescapable part of job, competent leadership tries to take some precautions to prevent needless deaths when they can.

 

For ironworkers, death isn't the name of the game, but it can be a harsh reality for obvious reasons. That's why there are safety measures - safety belts, scaffolding, nets, not to mention they don't work during dangerous weather conditions. It's not 100% safe, and I don't know that it ever can be. But it's as safe as it reasonably can get.

 

Professional wrestling is a genre of fiction built around a fictitious combat sport. In theory, it's not even supposed to hurt, nevermind kill. Obviously that's not the reality of the situation. It does hurt, and like ironworking, I don't suppose wrestling could ever be made 100% safe. Unlike ironworking - or even the military - wrestling doesn't even seem to be trying. So drawing comparisons to these other professions really shows even more just how much the business is to blame.

 

As a wrestling fan, though, I'm not sure how one manages not to feel resentment towards the profession that systematically kills off the people who entertain you.

Of course I have resentment towards the institutions that harbor these men and women to perform for me and indirectly allow them to shorten their lives. It is the same kind of resentment that mothers and fathers, brothers and sisters, friends and family have towards the military when their Marine/soldier/air men/sailor dies in combat or in training. They are looking for a source to blame other than the actual person to be blamed, the person who chose to defend their country. Sure, that sounds fucked up especially coming from a Marine, but that’s life and reality.

That's actually not fucked up at all...unless the marine or ironworker in question died because of the incompetence of their superiors. In professional wrestling, people are dying unnecessarily because of their superiors' reckless disregard for human life. They still carry blame, because they should know by the time they get in the biz that their superiors are raging sociopaths. That doesn't mean it's OK to be a raging sociopath, or that being the raging sociopath who gives out the order to do something stupid completely excuses you from blame when some other idiot does the stupid thing you ordered him to do.

 

Fujinami didn't come about due to desensitization. Fuck, Fujinami, Inoki, and a broken-down Baba all coexisted rather nicely throughout the late-70's and 80's. Jumbo, too. Choshu and Tiger Mask came in, and they all coexisted. Hansen, Hogan, Andre, Brody, and Dynamite all came through, and they all coexisted. Sure, styles would change over time. They always do. But it hardly seems like a result of desensitization as much as of the natural evolution of a given style. Sometimes, this evolution has taken ill-advised paths, but it doesn't mean they're forced to take them because fans were becoming "desensitized". Fuck, puro nowadays probably has as much headdrops and death-defying spots as it's ever had, and the industry is in the shitter. So obviously, this isn't what the fans are demanding. One of the last guys in puro to be a really consistent draw was old, broken down Misawa throwing a bunch of elbows. He puts Marufuji and KENTA in the main event and no one gives a shit. Desensitization, my ass.

Fujinami has always been old school.

 

So you never saw any of his junior work, then?

 

Moreover, you’re obviously just looking at New Japan – think All Japan when Choshu came aboard and started the movement of spot/spot/spot ad nauseam until the finishing sequence.

When did Baba and Jumbo have New Japan runs?

 

Anyway, I don't think anyone disagrees that the style changed. We disagree that the style changed due to "desensitization". Nobody was fretting over people getting "desensitized" to Baba and Inoki's styles. Promoters did not get down on their hands and knees and thank their lucky stars when Choshu hit it big because crowds had not been "desensitized" to him yet. Choshu was a charismatic guy who worked a fast-paced style and got over. It wasn't a company mandate that he work that style to combat the rising tide of "desensitization" amongst audiences. It was just who he was and what he did. He was a hit, so others followed suit. That's really all there was to it.

 

You contradict yourself nicely in the middle of this diatribe.

The industry is in a crisis because what was the new fade (strong style & head dropping) has become passé, worn and faded, they (puro) are in need of something new to revitalize their crippled industry. They are desensitized to head drops; they need something new and fresh to rekindle their desires and applauses.

Misawa could be all about nostalgia, and juniors aren’t supposed to be the main event in Japan, it isn’t Mexico or the North East United States. Shinjiro Ohtani and Jushin Liger were two of the best juniors New Japan had to offer in the 90s, and they were never consistently successful when placed in the main event slot – hell Ohtani sucked ass as a heavy.

Not a contradiction, because was never arguing that wrestling was hitting it big in Japan because of head drops and high risks or any other fad in the first place. I was arguing that stuff was incidental to being a compelling figure who the fans cared about. That figure doesn't seem to exist right now, it's just guys copying the bells and whistles that you claim were the real cause for the previous business boom in Japan and taking them to their logical extreme. It's not working. Something else is missing.

 

What 80's wrestling are we talking about here? We're certainly not talking about 80's WWF are we? Yeah, nobody wants a bland technical champ like Hulk Hogan nowadays.

I never say the WWE, so that could have confused you. I should have placed a comma after the 80s as well, another possible confusion. I wasn’t talking about wrestling in the 80s, I was saying if wrestlers (today) wrestled as they did in the 80s the fans would chant boring. Therefore, your dribbling insults afterward are in effect, canceled.

I don't doubt that if you took a wrestler straight out of the 80's and put them in the 21st century, they would look out of place because of stylistic changes. But assuming we have two guys working holds and selling like in the 80's...again, it depends on who you're talking about. Overness really isn't determined by who has the fanciest moves. It's been demonstrated many, many times.

 

ROH is a niche product that's failed to make in-roads to the mainstream despite their emphasis on "the strong style".

And…what’s your point? I didn’t say the opposite of that, now did I? Simply pointing out: independent promotions like the leading US promotion gives the rabid fans that attend their shows the ultra violence they want, mainly stiffer than normal exchanges and dangerous looking suplexes. That is an original point of mine – the fans crave something and they get it.

However, I believe what you’re alluding to is that because a promotion such as ROH features the strong style and head drops and hasn’t become a worldwide corporation like the WWF so it isn’t truly relevant that all fans want those similar qualities in their promotion.

That is exactly my point, yes. There is more to drawing money in wrestling than being on the bleeding edge of style.

 

[M]any times throughout wrestling history that the WWE "One Body Type to Rule Them All" isn't the only one that gets over. Like...you know...Umaga's body.

One person compared to how many others that look like male models?

Yokozuna got over, Rikishi got over. How many others?

Would you statistically be able to say that there is a good/great ratio between the built bodies and the flabby bodies? I’m venturing to say no – probably a 95/5 ratio, maybe lower for the fat bodies. So yeah.

Most fat wrestlers don't get over. Most built wrestlers don't get over. Most wrestlers period don't get over. 95/5 ratio is probably right for both fat guys and jacked guys. In fact, it's probably a bit better for fat guys just because wrestling promoters typically push for unbelievably jacked physiques to the point that you can no longer really market that as being something special anymore. If you're fat, you're unique, and if you're unique, you have a better shot at getting over.

 

Oh, and as long as you're asking...Andre the Giant, Abdullah the Butcher, Bam Bam Bigelow, Ray Traylor in his various forms, Jerry Blackwell, Earthquake, Kamala, King Kong Bundy, Big Daddy V, and One Man Gang, if we're restricting it to guys with mainstream American overness in the last 25 years.

 

So, not exactly a relevant comparison.

I’ll give you that one, but add there are exceptions to everything, but primarily, if you look through the history of the WWF, muscular men are the biggest stars and have held that title belt the most. Bruno wasn’t chiseled like HHH or Hogan, but he that aura like Thesz, the “don’t mess me with me motherfucker”.

Realistically, your company ace is probably going to be a guy who at least looks to be in good shape. I guess it's to be expected when you're playing the role of "best athlete in this sport". But benath that very top spot, most fans are more forgiving than you.

 

I wonder if you think Vince McMahon's idea to be the storyline father of Stephanie's baby was a good one.

First, there was the notion I am homosexual. Now I am a fan of incest.

What is your quote advertising? That because I dislike fat people that I am gay and enjoy some good ole fashioned family loving.

Oh, Christ...my posts are long and rambling enough. Do I have to include footnotes, now?

 

The rest of my post was themed around you backing up your obsessive, creepy hatred of fatties by quoting one of the most vile, unsympathetic characters in film history. That was an incredibly stupid move that paints you as the kind of person who would decapitate a woman and then hand her gift-wrapped head to her husband, and your continuing lack of self-awareness about it doesn't help your case. It doesn't mean you're wrong when you share an opinion with a bad guy. Hell, even Hitler got some things right. But you'd have to be a complete social retard to back up a claim by quoting der Fuhrer.

 

So I spent the rest of my post making fun of you by pretending to play devil's advocate, making my real point, and then making an insane counterpoint backed up by some more of the most vile, unsympathetic characters in film history. To wit....

 

"I don't blame myself. You see, Mr. Gittes, most people never have to face the fact that at the right time and the right place, they're capable of ANYTHING."

-Noah Cross (John Huston), Chinatown

 

"Baby wants to fuck! Baby wants to fuck Blue Velvet!"

-Frank Booth (Dennis Hopper), Blue Velvet

 

"I...I have rights. Why can't you people just leave me alone?"

-The Scorpio Killer (Andrew Robinson), Dirty Harry

 

"Today is history. Today will be remembered. Years from now the young will ask with wonder about this day. Today is history and you are part of it. Six hundred years ago when elsewhere they were footing the blame for the Black Death, Casimir the Great - so called - told the Jews they could come to Krakow. They came. They trundled their belongings into the city. They settled. They took hold. They prospered in business, science, education, the arts. With nothing they came and with nothing they flourished. For six centuries there has been a Jewish Krakow. By this evening those six centuries will be a rumor. They never happened. Today is history."

-Amon Goeth (Ralph Fiennes), Schindler's List

 

"Look at you. You used to be so cocky. You were going to go out and conquer the world. You once called me 'a warped, frustrated, old man!' What are you but a warped, frustrated young man? A miserable little clerk crawling in here on your hands and knees and begging for help. No securities, no stocks, no bonds. Nothin' but a miserable little $500 equity in a life insurance policy....You're worth more dead than alive!"

-Mr. Potter (Lionel Barrymore), It's a Wonderful Life

 

"Don't talk like one of them. You're not! Even if you'd like to be. To them, you're just a freak, like me! They need you right now, but when they don't, they'll cast you out, like a leper! You see, their morals, their code, it's a bad joke. Dropped at the first sign of trouble. They're only as good as the world allows them to be. I'll show you. When the chips are down, these...these civilized people, they'll eat each other. See, I'm not a monster. I'm just ahead of the curve."*

-The Joker (Heath Ledger), The Dark Knight

 

"We didn't need dialogue. We had faces!"

-Norma Desmond (Gloria Swanson), Sunset Boulevard

 

"Nothing stops. Nothing...or you will do the hardest time there is. No more protection from the guards. I'll pull you out of that one-bunk Hilton and cast you down with the Sodomites. You'll think you've been fucked by a train! And the library? Gone...sealed off, brick-by-brick. We'll have us a little book barbecue in the yard. They'll see the flames for miles. We'll dance around it like wild Injuns! You understand me? Catching my drift?...Or am I being obtuse?"

-Warden Norton (Bob Gunton), The Shawshank Redemption

 

Better?

 

[it's] pretty hard to argue that it's an unrealistic feat when he is actually having a 20+ minute match with John Cena.

Sure, the match did happen, I’ve seen it, probably millions of people have as well – does it make it realistic though, no. Unless Umaga was just a machine there is no way in hell he worked that style of match for that long with that body without using unnatural methods to gain the stamina and endurance it requires to work a match of that length. When I saw that match, I saw a man (Umaga) doing something virtually impossible for a man of his size, which drew me to my conclusion that he must have been using methods that are unnatural.

The same could be said of his opponent. The same could be said of every well-built wrestler. Bodybuilding muscles are not made for lengthy athletic contests. And if you're even slightly aware of the backstage goings on of wrestling promotions, then you can apply this criticism to most every wrestler working today. And really, it's not like there's a whole lot else in wrestling that actually is realistic, anyway. Most people can apply suspension of disbelief here. Quit projecting your lardophobia on the rest of the world.

 

Is responsible behavior solely the purview of the working man?

That is a tough question. Back in the golden age, a man was a man. Now it seems as though men are a dying breed. What exactly are you suggesting with that feminine approach?

 

I'm not sure how to respond to this other than by saying this is one of the funniest things I have read in quite some time. Thank you, sir. You have put a smile on my face.

 

Now, if the WWF had knowledge of any existing injuries or ailments and still allowed the man to continue doing his function, than yes, responsibility would be in their laps then. Is that the fact now, who knows.

 

Who knows? Pretty much everyone other than you, it would seem.

 

Has that been a factor in any of the deaths, possibly yes.

 

You're being obtuse.

 

Are you ignorant to the American society?

 

Not so ignorant as to miss a quote from the biggest money-making film of the last decade, no.

 

Are you being willfully dense?

Yes. I am also being willfully retarded and willfully the god damn Batman.

 

Actually, most people just want charismatic figures who can tell a good story. That's how it looks to me, anyway. But I'm probably wrong. Society wants reckless endangerment and the most jacked-up, sexy bodies science can give us. You see, our morals, our code, it's a bad joke. Dropped at the first sign of a flabby, shirtless body or a single armbar. We're only as good as the world allows us to be. But you've shown us. When the chips are down, these...these civilized people, they'll eat each other. You're not a monster. You're just ahead of the curve! AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

If the chips mean society, then yes we would destroy each other – state of nature.

"What were you hoping to prove? That, deep down, everyone's as ugly as you? You're ALONE!"

 

As are we all, I'm sure. And that grief will surely lead many of us to project our character flaws, our failings, our hatreds, and even our sexual leanings onto others. But the important thing is that we assign no blame whatsoever to the wrestling business.

What is the point in placing blame on the WWF?

 

To assign blame where it belongs. Duh.

 

You know, be a man and speak the truth even if it hurts – none of that pussified crap of we’re all beautiful snowflakes and beauty is on the inside. Grow up.

Ummmm....what the fuck does individuality and self-esteem have to do with any of this? This might be an even more telling choice of quotes from movie bad guys than the Seven quote was.

 

Like in the military if someone dies from an overdose or suicide, they always look at the case in the following order – rack mate or roommate, fire team leader if in a combat related MOS, squad leader, platoon leader, platoon sergeant, platoon gunnery sergeant, platoon first sergeant, platoon executive officer, platoon commander, and so on. Blame will never be attributed directly to the top.

OK...but what happens if you manage to go all the way to the top, and it turns out everyone is to blame? Do you just go with the lowest common denominator and excuse the grotesque, glaring fuck-ups of everyone above him? Or do you agree with me that that is stupid?

 

Or am I being obtuse?

We all are/have at one time or another.

You got that right.

 

Although you have come across as a snobbish dick in the majority of your post, I like your tastes in movies, as I am assuming you were cleverly using that from the warden on Shawshank Redemption.

Hey, you actually found one!

 

*For the record, The Joker did not burst into histerical laughter after this line. I included it partly as artistic liscence and partly to help get the joke across to smkelly, who seems a little slow, and who I figured might need help getting the reference. Apparently I was right.

[Wahoos Leg]

You were the best of us, S.L.L.!

[ohtani's jacket]

Misawa is unusual that you can chalk up his death to one risk factor.

That's over-simplifying the issue. Misawa didn't die soley because of damage to his neck.

[Bix]

Misawa is unusual that you can chalk up his death to one risk factor.

That's over-simplifying the issue. Misawa didn't die soley because of damage to his neck.

 

He was internally decapitated due his his neck damage. Barely anyone survives that.

[sek69]

Misawa's neck probably wouldn't have broken had it not been subject to the abuse it took over the years. Let's not let his death cause people to use revisionist history to erase the last few years of broken down zombie Misawa continuing to wrestle because he was the only sure draw his company had.

[ohtani's jacket]

Misawa was a wreck before he died -- couldn't stand or walk properly, smoke, drank, was constantly fatigued from going on the road and running his company at the same time, was under huge pressure from losing his major backer during an economic recession, and refused to take a medical examination because the finishing line was in sight, or so he thought.

 

Misawa was in a situation that was difficult for him to walk away from and he chose to keep going against the advice of those who knew him best. A few months before he died, he visited his best friend in hospital who was recovering from cancer, and his friend urged him to get himself checked out. Misawa promised him he would, but never did. In January 2007, the doctors informed him of his neck injury when he was taken to hospital after that match against Morishima. Misawa knew the risks he was taking, but thought if he made it through the rest of the year he could step down at some point in 2010.

 

Misawa was acutely aware of his health problems. He was also acutely aware of the industry's problems -- lack of regulation, no welfare system, poor medical support, no retirement schemes to speak of. These were issues he clashed with the Babas over and were at the fore of his decision to start-up NOAH, but at the end of the day, Misawa put his well being second to keeping his company alive.

 

If Misawa had retired at any point in the last ten years, he would still be alive, albeit in constant pain. If he'd chosen to have neck surgery and take major time off, he would still be alive. But for a small company president with a thirty year mortgage and two kids to put through college, these aren't easy decisions to make, so I don't think it's right to judge. My point is that he was far from oblivious to the fact he was unwell, but like a guy who goes to the doctor and gets fair warning, he didn't take heed.

[sek69]

I guess there's something heroic about a guy like Misawa taking the punishment himself to keep his company afloat, but it just underscores how messed up the profession is.

[sek69]

Another point that I see largely being slept on, everyone's up in arms over CM Punk being a heel for telling people drugs are bad, but to me the far more reprehensible thing is how every babyface he's faced has the same response of "everyone's free to live their life" which seems to be a way to say it's OK to do drugs if that's the choice you decide to make in life.

 

I mean, when you think about it, how fucked up is it where you have babyfaces implicitly endorsing recreational drug use on a show that is supposed to be PG rated programming?

[ohtani's jacket]

I guess there's something heroic about a guy like Misawa taking the punishment himself to keep his company afloat, but it just underscores how messed up the profession is.

I wouldn't call it heroic, nor would I call it tragic, it's just a mess and has been since the economic bubble burst.

[Herodes]

So what I got from smkelly's hilarious rant is that he ballooned in weight which led to derision and *gasp* a loss of wardrobe, and now he's projecting his insecurities and self-loathing on to fatboy wrestlers because he could no longer squeeze into his old pair of jeans.

[Resident Evil]

I've never understood the need to gang up on people and put them down. It's very insecure and an eyerolling way to pump one's ego up. People can discuss points better than they are here without talking nonsensical garbage about a fellow peer.

[S.L.L.]

Another point that I see largely being slept on, everyone's up in arms over CM Punk being a heel for telling people drugs are bad, but to me the far more reprehensible thing is how every babyface he's faced has the same response of "everyone's free to live their life" which seems to be a way to say it's OK to do drugs if that's the choice you decide to make in life.

 

I mean, when you think about it, how fucked up is it where you have babyfaces implicitly endorsing recreational drug use on a show that is supposed to be PG rated programming?

Yeah, remember all those awesome promo duels from the Eddie/Lesnar feud in '04 where Brock would try to slam Eddie for his former drug use, and Eddie would respond by admitting to fucking up big time in the past, but how he's learned from his experiences and become a better man as a result? Would it have been so hard to do that with the Jeff/Punk feud? Would it really have been that much of a challenge to write up a promo where Jeff follows his usual "we all make mistakes" spiel with "but some of us learn from those mistakes"? Even if he didn't really mean it? I guess you don't want to demonize a top babyface by painting him as someone who actually learns from his mistakes when you know he's going to prove that he didn't. But yeah, it's pretty fucked up.

[S.L.L.]

So what I got from smkelly's hilarious rant is that he ballooned in weight which led to derision and *gasp* a loss of wardrobe, and now he's projecting his insecurities and self-loathing on to fatboy wrestlers because he could no longer squeeze into his old pair of jeans.

That seems to be the obvious surface explanation, but it's very rare that this kind of deep sociopathy is explained by a single issue. The obsession with being a "real man", the lack of self-awareness, the inability to empathize with the perceived "weak" while repeatedly empathizing with David Fincher movie villains, the slavish and unquestioning devotion to those in positions of power...these all paint a much richer picture of madness that cannot be chalked up solely to being an ex-fat guy who's disgusted with those who have his former physical imperfections.

[smkelly]

"while one of the writers sacrifices his dignity with gusto by slathering oil on his repulsive, 300 pound frame and parades about in a G-String"

"The more physically demanding style combined with the mainstream knowledge that pro wrestling is a complete work means they now have to hit each other twice as hard to get half the response. Careers last 5 or 10 years instead of 20 or 30."

 

*Most of my responses are quotes so no need to cry over this, SLL*

*Oh, and I apologize to those in power round these parts, as this post has little to do with wrestling*

SLL, let me get this straight, because I have never seen six out of the eight films you quoted, thus not catching them, and one of the ones I had seen and didn't recognize the quotes, I am slow. That is brilliant logic. I am hoping you're not an educator like Goodhelmet, parent teacher conferences must be a real treat. "Can you believe this, I used material your child didn't know and failed them for it." You're a harsher judge than the superego.

Oh, go through my post again, for someone who says I am slow for missing quotes you missed some yourself.

 

Not so ignorant as to miss a quote from the biggest money-making film of the last decade, no.

Did you know prior to this that I had watched the movie? Again, you're judging unfairly and incompetently without qualification. I love your definitions, absolutely worth every second of my life.

 

[O]bsessive, creepy hatred

This, this right here. That signifies your pussified internet message board geekdom. Either that or you yourself are porcine, or you have married a Sus scrofa like woman. Only fat people get defensive when fat people are mocked or a McDonald's executive but I forgot you're a saint. Your inclinations are never detrimental, never bad.

I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning that's as good as they're going to feel all day.

You write as though the world is pure, that society is respectable. What do you know of life, or society for that matter? You write as though you have served in the armed forces, that you have been deployed to wretched places. Have you ever laced up a pair of combat boots and stood on the ready line? Have you watched as human beings are being smuggled as goods in exchange for drugs and munitions? Have you watched a city crumble from Mother Nature and the survivors resort to barbarism? What have you seen that makes you think that the world is a gracious and decent place? You must be a troglodyte. Because in a world this execrable, how could you have overflowing optimism and the audacity to criticize a movement that would only improve society, what is so great about society? Whatever you're high on, I would like to place an order.

Oh, to relate to the notion of my disdain for the chubbies, I blame brainwashing from the military. A Marine is not allowed to be fat. It is a disgrace to the uniform and because...gasp...it is unhealthy.

Your blind acceptance to this issue will not help anyone.

 

That was an incredibly stupid move that paints you as the kind of person who would decapitate a woman and then hand her gift-wrapped head to her husband, and your continuing lack of self-awareness about it doesn't help your case.

Hmm…?

But being a, what you'd call, an "obsessive and creepy" wrestling fan is kosher? Don't deny that you watch more wrestling than anything else in your life, if that's what you want to call it.

You think I don't realize I could have used a better fat quote then that. It does come across as unsympathetic and morally reprehensible. Nevertheless, even if I apologize for such actions, my words will not mean anything to you, as your words and actions mean nothing to me.

I mustn't have realized how sensitive of a crowd that posts here, judging by how wet in the pants SLL got by the inclusion of the quoted material. Drawing a correlation between using a quote and performing a barbaric act of murder is appalling and outright laughable to consider.

You laugh at me because I'm strange I laugh at you because you're stupid!

Tragedy is when I cut my finger, Comedy is when you fall into an open sewer and die.

 

Who knows? Pretty much everyone other than you, it would seem.

Don't be humble - you are not that great.

You're attempting to say that the WWF knew about Umaga's illness prior to his death. Can you prove this, or is it another unfair incompetent judging from the almighty saint SLL? I get it though man; you hate the WWF - WELCOME TO THE CLUB. Beat another horse why don't cha. I think William Shakespeare was the wisest human being I ever heard of. To be perfectly frank, though, that's not saying much. We are impossibly conceited animals, and actually dumb as heck. Ask any teacher. You don't even have to ask a teacher. Ask anybody. Dogs and cats are smarter than we are.

What undeniable evidence do you possess, or that of which you have found can substantially prove your assumptions?

 

I'm not sure how to respond to this other than by saying this is one of the funniest things I have read in quite some time. Thank you, sir. You have put a smile on my face.

Nevertheless, in all seriousness, what you're asking for is a boss who constantly walks around the locker room or boardroom asking people if they're okay. Are you okay man, is that neck hurting, can I help you in any way? Do you need counseling or rehab for your drug habits?

You have already shown you're ignorance to the real workings of society with your fluffed optimism, but now you are degrading men as tissue boxes that need comforting.

I could carve a better man out of a banana.

 

You still fail to accept the fact that Umaga is the primary reason he is deceased. He made the choice to continue wrestling. He made the choice to abuse his body in unnatural ways. If it comes out that he was mentally incapacitated like Benoit, I will retract my statements; I do not possess the evidence to counter my current thought though. I do place blame upon the WWF's shoulders though, I have even said that, but it isn't good enough for you. I still place blame upon the shoulders of his family and friends and co-workers. Look at what the media did to the parents of the Colombian students who massacred their classmates. The parents were blamed, and rightfully so.

 

Umaga was a grown man, why would his company be solely responsible for his own actions and harmful vices? You haven't given an answer to that yet. Why wouldn't blame be attributed to his friends and co-workers, let alone his family? Are we not responsible for any of our actions or decisions, or is there always someone else to blame for our mishaps and transgressions? If you answer yes, how do you not accept the fact that Umaga was in control of his life and decided to destroy it, thus he is to blame above all else?

 

Quit projecting your lardophobia on the rest of the world.

Tell me why.

We are dealing with the best-educated generation in history. But they've got a brain dressed up with nowhere to go.

Everyone knows the associated risks, knows what it does - but nothing is ever done.

Is it okay for people to become obese? Why is it okay if you answer yes?

Is it okay for America to pay billions of dollars every year in health care for people who cannot take care of themselves because they are obese and refuse to lose weight and become healthier?

Obesity is killing an untold amount of people in the United States every year. Deaths ranging from strokes, heart attacks, cancer, suicide and normal accidents, let alone diabetes.

Is it okay that healthy people have to pay for the unhealthy because of their poor choices in life? What kind of example is that setting for future generations?

I suppose that you are an advocate for felons and inmates receiving fair treatment i.e. more rights than their victims and having better health coverage than the normal law abiding citizen does.

I can only imagine your stance on military combat, or the police's force continuum.

For being apolitical, you sure are a bleeding hearted liberal.

No worries though SLL, don't think of yourself as an ugly person, just a beautiful monkey.

I am utilitarian in my moral philosophy; I want most people to be as happy as humanly possible. Imagine the relief of many people had they never gained the extra person in weight, or lost that amount of weight. Do you not want people to be happy, SLL?

You take my dislike of obese people and spin it to sound as though I'd take a flamethrower to the world. How many lives would be saved if obesity were cut in half? Imagine that. Saving a life is an experience a person will never forget.

 

That seems to be the obvious surface explanation, but it's very rare that this kind of deep sociopathy is explained by a single issue. The obsession with being a "real man", the lack of self-awareness, the inability to empathize with the perceived "weak" while repeatedly empathizing with David Fincher movie villains, the slavish and unquestioning devotion to those in positions of power...these all paint a much richer picture of madness that cannot be chalked up solely to being an ex-fat guy who's disgusted with those who have his former physical imperfections.

I thought you were an old dead guy? Want to know what my iceberg is, what it really is?

Yep, I have no idea that which I am, where my path may lead, etc ad nauseam.

You use obsession like "the".

Unbalanced exaggerations, unfairly judging, pseudo psych evaluations, narcissistic in presentation with overemphasis on nurturing the diseased and obese - to anti-authoritative and namby-pamby - what is being presented is a keyboard crusader. You are filled with extraordinary ideas but what contributions do you provide for society - do you donate your time and energy for abused teens, or help the homeless find suitable places to live? What do you do with your talent besides trying to tear apart a fellow poster?

 

I cited the professions of being a steel worker and a Marine for one primary reason, because the three very different career paths hold one fundamental core correlation. All jobs possess risks, a Red Light District street walker could be mugged or beaten or raped or murdered or contract an STD, and the risks are known. If she dies, is it her pimps fault for lack of protection? No. If a professional baseball pitcher takes a line drive to the side of the face and it kills him – is it the teams fault, manager, pitching coach, general manager's faults? No. If a Su Chef slips and falls in the deep freezer while carrying a chef's knife and impales himself and dies – is it the restaurants fault that he was negligent of his own personal safety and the rules and regulations of the company? No. You still fail to grasp the concept of what I am arguing. I mention being a Marine and you take a back alley approach; I mention a steel worker and you talk about scaffolding and nets. I knew the risks of joining the Marine Corps., did I know that I would be shot three times and suffer a heat stroke? No. Can I blame the Marine Corps. or the Armed Forces or the American Government for my mangled arm and destroyed body? No. I knew the risks and signed the dotted line anyway in spite of the risks and probability that I would be deployed. One of my best friends died from falling off a high-rise structure in New York City after 9/11. It was a purely accidentally fall, no incompetence was found. He too knew the risks off working hundreds of feet above ground, but he too also spited the associated risks and worked anyway.

 

That is my point all along. Sure, some attributed blame can be given on the part of the WWF, but it is unfair and illogical to put the ball in their court solely when Umaga consciously made the choice to be a professional wrestler and continue sacrificing his body for a paycheck and to entertain his fans. When I was shot, I originally blamed the government for taking us to war. But I realized that it was I who wanted to be deployed, wanted to go to war. If there was anyone to blame, it was I. My friend held a similar methodology as I do, he wouldn’t have blamed the company he was being contracted through for his tragic demise. He would have had enough guts to admit that blame rested solely on his shoulders.

 

In the end, I could be eating my words. If Umaga's brain is found to be as damaged as Benoit's, as unlikely as it is, he would be an incompetent person who legally, shouldn't be allowed to make decisions for themselves. In that case, sole blame would lie upon the chests of his employers and still, his closest friends would be half-owners of the blame.

[smkelly]

I'd say there's a difference between 70s bleeders (most of who was mentioned) and 90s bleeders. Chairshots were as basic of a staple in garbage matches in the 90s as headrops were in 90s All Japan. The "realism" of chairshots escalates every bit as much, if not more, than headrops did.

I agree. Hardcore wrestling like what the IWA in Japan presented, or what FMW was doing was insane for the human body. Chairshots started weak, typically soft blows on the back or an appendage. In the 90s, Sabu started throwing chairs while Cactus Jack was using them to deliver elbow drops off ladders. Blood flowed more in the 90s than in the 70s and 80s with the meteoric rise of hardcore wrestling and low-level independent circles opening. There were cards where every single wrestler bled, and bled heavily. There were few huge gushers I can remember from the 80s, almost none from the 70s, the 90s is where the blood flowed freely.

 

What do we think had more of an impact on Benoit's screwed up brain tissue: headrops or chairshots? It's not like Chris was a heavyduty headrop eater, but when needing to eat a chairshot he seemed during and after his time in ECW to want to "make it look good" rather than protect himself like Triple H does (which is ironic since Trip isn't very protective when swinging a chair).

If anything, it is what you said: to make it look good. His tendency was to wow the fans, which he did either with his willingness to sacrifice his body or to look real in the ring with his stiff strikes, chops/kicks/head butts. His swan dive head butt was dangerous because of the shock absorption his body sustained from falling from that height and the velocity of which his body crashed to the mat. Gravity was much harsher when he was throwing himself off a cage to the mat or to the floor through tables. His superplex was also particularly dangerous – he made it look good, and in a bad way by landing on the back of his head and rolling over. His topes through the ropes were always dangerous, like the one against Booker T when he crashed into the announce table back first. I can only presume that years of taking head dives in the ring would lead to a poorly functioning brain.

 

I don't care for headrops. Turned on them early than most folks,

Neither do I. When I got my first compilation puro tape in the late nineties I was blown away by the amount of headropping going on. I was an avid fan of them. I loved watching Kobashi or Misawa get spiked on their heads. At the time, I also liked the Goosebump books. Now the situation is different. I have been exposed to a greater level of understanding in wrestling – I prefer a story in the ring without the need for excessive headropping or senseless endangerment.

 

The workrate heroes of years gone by have nothing to be proud of - Misawa dead in a ring, Benoit's a murderer, Dynamite Kid a destitute amputee, Kobashi a virtual cripple pathetically dragging himself into the ring to stave off the inevitable life in a wheelchair which beckons, Toyota with a broken down body at a young age and so on.

The ends of their actions are certainly undesirable, but they had something to be proud of when the song was still in tune. They made money, had fun, and entertained us. That has to count for something.

 

Kawada is alive. But we have no idea how screwed up his brain is from the headrops.

In addition, just the overall hard shots he took to the head from All Japan’s best.

We know his lower extremities are not at peak performance. How many knee injuries have placed him on the shelf?

 

The problem is all their brains on both sides of the argument are probably screwed up, as Andrew Martin worked a generally safer style than Benoit, Mick, Sandman, Rotten, Kawada, Kobashi, Akiyama, Williams, Hashimoto, Takayama, Hoshikawa and Misawa. That's the big worry.

Test also had drug and steroid problems. That could be a major indicator of why he had problems. Benoit was a devout steroid user. Some people can withstand the pressures of professional wrestling and some cannot. No one person is cut from the same exact cloth.

 

Edge and even Scott Hall have injured their next working a far safer style than Misawa.

Edge did fall off plenty of ladders and take unprotected chair shots. From late 99 until his neck injury he was a bump magnet for the WWF. Hell since his return he is still falling off ladders and getting brained with chairs. Edge also worked with Angle and Benoit often. He took many overhead suplexes.

 

Powerbombs can be riskier than we think, even after we've seen a ton of "soft" ones... so a lot of thought needs to be put into them. Doing them off cages is pretty fucking dumb. Doing them "hard" or "stiff" is pretty dumb.

Or in CZW, doing a death valley driver off a cage through some tables.

 

But even stuff like the Gore/Spear appears to be a pretty damn dumb move.

That all depends on who is doing the tackling, Goldberg and Rhino have hurt people using this move and the former broke his neck spearing the barricade. Edge’s spear is more like a running hug rather than a sternum-breaking move. Another note of impact is the whiplash effect Goldberg and Rhino’s spears had. I believe Goldberg concussed many people in WCW from the spear, most notably Curt Hennig.

 

Regarding the training, I find it odd that many young wrestlers have been trained by legends in the sport. Another thing of interest to point out is the prevalence of young wrestlers training other wrestlers, like in the ROH academy or Homicide’s hundred pupils.

[jdw]

This kind of typifies why I think we can't compare the vampires of the Dusty/Abby era with today:

 

Jun Kasai vs MASADA - Razor Death MatchPart 1

 

Jun Kasai vs MASADA - Razor Death MatchPart 2

 

Jun Kasai vs MASADA - Razor Death MatchPart 3

 

Doubt that's even the most extreme thing Kasai or Masada have done.

 

John

[Ditch]

Kasai's latest razor deathmatch (which was more gory than that one) is the 2009 Tokyo Sports MOTY.

[jdw]

Kasai's latest razor deathmatch (which was more gory than that one) is the 2009 Tokyo Sports MOTY.

Wow... how far have we fallen. :/

 

What's the date and the opponent. I feel that I need to find it on youtube to watch just what makes for a Tokyo Sports MOTY these days.

 

John

[jdw]

Found it:

 

#1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d02Jjxa4u9k

#2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8cZVaTyVhw

#3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UkbLMHhFhw

 

John

[jdw]

Several versions of it up there, but that's the best quality cap that I found.

 

John

[S.L.L.]

Out of respect for our brave, hard working men and women of the armed forces, let me publicly apologize for ridiculing the shell-shocked war vet. If I had known, I would've let him be.

[sek69]

I still don't know why it being a risky profession means it's all on the person who's doing the job. Most jobs aren't 100% safe, hell a TV set could fall on my head where I work and kill me instantly. That doesn't mean my employer has no reason to make sure the mounting brackets aren't attached properly. The fact that I accepted a TV could fall on my head doesn't absolve the company of doing whatever it can to minimize the chance of it happening.

 

Shit happens, we all know that. Construction workers sometimes fall off high buildings, soldiers get shot at, and sometimes NFL players get career ending knee injuries from their cleats getting stuck in the turf when they get hit. All of those people also benefit from working in fields where millions have been spent in making sure anyone entering that line of work is as safe as possible. What's been done in the last five, ten, or even thirty years in wrestling to make things safer other than mats on the floor?

 

I think Loss is on to something when he mentioned a lot of it comes down to is the poor training most wrestlers are getting. I remember back when Tough Enough was running, most of their training consisted of them taking thousands of back bumps and running the ropes. Obviously some of that was done for TV, but I remember watching the show and thinking "wow, this is all the training they can give these guys?". Looking at the guys who have come up through the recent developmental system, the ones who were mostly trained by WWE are the ones who ended up with injury after injury (Batista and Orton come to mind) and guys like Cena who were mostly trained out of WWE have a lot better track record.

[S.L.L.]

I still don't know why it being a risky profession means it's all on the person who's doing the job. Most jobs aren't 100% safe, hell a TV set could fall on my head where I work and kill me instantly. That doesn't mean my employer has no reason to make sure the mounting brackets aren't attached properly. The fact that I accepted a TV could fall on my head doesn't absolve the company of doing whatever it can to minimize the chance of it happening.

 

Shit happens, we all know that. Construction workers sometimes fall off high buildings, soldiers get shot at, and sometimes NFL players get career ending knee injuries from their cleats getting stuck in the turf when they get hit. All of those people also benefit from working in fields where millions have been spent in making sure anyone entering that line of work is as safe as possible. What's been done in the last five, ten, or even thirty years in wrestling to make things safer other than mats on the floor?

It's no excuse, of course, but I would acknowledge that wrestling is weirdly unique in that promoters' complete lack of human empathy is known to pretty much everyone who gets involved in the business. So if you're a wrestler, and something happens to you that would be unthinkable/unforgivable in any other legal profession, it's not like you didn't know that sort of thing could easily happen to you when you signed on. But that's what I was trying to get at before - there's a lot of blame to go around. Management is to blame for their insane 19th century robber baron business practices, but the wrestlers are to blame for idiotically going along with it, as well.