Congress requests WWE drug testing records

[Al]

"That said, looking back, it's pretty ridiculous how blood marks were chided for being barbaric vampires by the "classier" sheet writers and readers who championed Cactus Jack and the AJPW head drop style. Which isn't to say that blading is not inherently ridiculous, but that it didn't do close to the damage of the almighty workrates. "

 

I think that hardcore style had it's share of accidents. Pogo breaking his neck for one. Foley telling the story of a female wrestler getting badly burned in another bout. The problem is that since the performers usually aren't of such a high profile as a Misawa, these don't get as much attention.

[kjh]

But none of those accidents came from blading. I think Bix's point was that ironically catering to the blood marks turned out to be a lot safer for wrestlers than catering to the headdrop marks or the stunt bump marks or the workrate marks. Despite the perverse nature of blading, the wrestlers who bladed with reckless abandon (Dusty, Flair, Onita, Sheik, Abdullah, Lewin, Iaukea, etc) all lived to a reasonably old age.

[Bix]

But none of those accidents came from blading. I think Bix's point was that ironically catering to the blood marks turned out to be a lot safer for wrestlers than catering to the headdrop marks or the stunt bump marks or the workrate marks. Despite the perverse nature of blading, the wrestlers who bladed with reckless abandon (Dusty, Flair, Onita, Sheik, Abdullah, Lewin, Iaukea, etc) all lived to a reasonably old age.

Exactly.

[jdw]

I'd say there's a difference between 70s bleeders (most of who was mentioned) and 90s bleeders. Chairshots were as basic of a staple in garbage matches in the 90s as headrops were in 90s All Japan. The "realism" of chairshots escalates every bit as much, if not more, than headrops did.

 

What do we think had more of an impact on Benoit's screwed up brain tissue: headrops or chairshots? It's not like Chris was a heavyduty headrop eater, but when needing to eat a chairshot he seemed during and after his time in ECW to want to "make it look good" rather than protect himself like Triple H does (which is ironic since Trip isn't very protective when swinging a chair).

 

Onita is alive. But we have no idea how screwed up his brain is from the chairshots. Dittos Mick, Sandman, Rotten, etc.

 

On the other side, we have Misawa and... ?

 

I don't think any of us have classified the move Plum died from in what we typically call "headrops".

 

This was one of the things I was trying to get across above. I don't care for headrops. Turned on them early than most folks, as the only person I can recall ranting about their safety before me was Jewett, and the two of us pretty much got dismissed as panty wastes on the issue by the "They Kill Themselves For Us!!!" crowd. But...

 

If you make the argument against these things in the extreme, you risk losing people who would otherwise be buying your point.

 

John

[Herodes]

I think the point is that whether it be in the 'noble' wrestling of All Japan or the 'scummy' indy death match leagues, doing stupid stuff, whether it be headrops, chairshots, reckless bumps, or otherwise killing yourself in some fashion...they are all the same level of stupidity. Despite wrestling fans trying to make distinctions to laughably preserve the honour of their preferred form of wrestling, ultimately Misawa and Benoit were no better than some indy guy throwing himself off a balcony onto a burning table. The workrate heroes of years gone by have nothing to be proud of - Misawa dead in a ring, Benoit's a murderer, Dynamite Kid a destitute amputee, Kobashi a virtual cripple pathetically dragging himself into the ring to stave off the inevitable life in a wheelchair which beckons, Toyota with a broken down body at a young age and so on. But many wrestling fans are able to indignantly decry some stupid stunt at a deathmatch tournament and write RIP messages for Misawa, and then quickly move on to pimping the latest MOTYC from NOAH or Dragon Gate USA that features a ton of reckless and stupid stiffness and bumps. The myth that All Japan or NOAH or AJW or ROH are this magical version of prowres that is an ARTFORM is silly when the bottom line is that for the wrestlers it is no better than the maligned hardcore style and its alleged lack of 'artistic merit'.

[El-P]

Well, there's a big difference though. Misawa did take headrops packing the Budokan and making shitload of money. Onita got blown up packing Kawasaki stadium making shitload of money. The imbeciles getting sliced up in some osbcure indies for 200 peoples, and the idiots of ROH taking a hundred headrops so that "strong-style" fans can jerk off to ***** matches don't make shit and destroy themselves for nothing. Not that I justify the abuse, but there is a difference between them.

I've not heard about Toyota being physically impaired at all BTW.

[kjh]

What do we think had more of an impact on Benoit's screwed up brain tissue: headrops or chairshots? It's not like Chris was a heavyduty headrop eater, but when needing to eat a chairshot he seemed during and after his time in ECW to want to "make it look good" rather than protect himself like Triple H does (which is ironic since Trip isn't very protective when swinging a chair).

 

Onita is alive. But we have no idea how screwed up his brain is from the chairshots. Dittos Mick, Sandman, Rotten, etc.

 

On the other side, we have Misawa and... ?

It was far from just chairshots that caused Benoit's screwed up brain tissue (and neck, which helped lead to his pain pill addiction). There were all the missed diving headbutts and tons of suplexes too.

 

Kawada is alive. But we have no idea how screwed up his brain is from the headrops. Dittos Kobashi, Akiyama, Williams, etc.

 

But on that same side, we also have Hashimoto, Takayama and Hoshikawa too. Not just Misawa.

 

The problem is all their brains on both sides of the argument are probably screwed up, as Andrew Martin worked a generally safer style than Benoit, Mick, Sandman, Rotten, Kawada, Kobashi, Akiyama, Williams, Hashimoto, Takayama, Hoshikawa and Misawa. That's the big worry.

[Bix]

Hell, even the diving headbutts that didn't miss probably screwed Benoit up. As Bryan Alvarez has often mentioned, he seemed to hit opponents with it way too hard some of the time.

[jdw]

It was far from just chairshots that caused Benoit's screwed up brain tissue (and neck, which helped lead to his pain pill addiction). There were all the missed diving headbutts and tons of suplexes too.

I don't disagree with that. There were tons of things that caused the issues seen in his brain tissue. I tend to think "headrops" are a small item in there. He really wasn't that insane of a headropper relative to Misawa an others. The diving headbut isn't a headrop, or we should toss Harley in here as well. :/ He did take (and more to the point *give*) suplexes with more *force* than most, but headrops weren't really his specialty. Other concussive things added up far more. I tossed out the chairshot because it's a garbage standard spot from the 90s.

 

Kawada is alive. But we have no idea how screwed up his brain is from the headrops. Dittos Kobashi, Akiyama, Williams, etc.

Agreed on all of that. Same could be said of 90s vampire wrestlers. Rotten is still alive, right? We don't know how scrambled he is. Dittos Sandman.

 

 

But on that same side, we also have Hashimoto, Takayama and Hoshikawa too. Not just Misawa.

I didn't know Hash died of headroping. That's news to me.

 

Takayama is alive and the TC champ at the moment. He's been pretty scrambled over the years. How much of that is from his pro wrestling and how much of it is from stuff like Frye punching him right in the skull a few dozen times (and other MMA ass kickings he's eaten over the years)? I don't know. And for all we know, Takayama would "live a long life".

 

Hoshikawa is a tricky one. Power Bomb off the cage, lariat... those are dangerous moves, but are they what we consider "headrops".

 

Foley going through the cage practically dropped on his neck. But was the spot a "headrop", or just another really fucking stupid dangerous spot that people in wrestling shouldn't be doing.

 

This gets to my point: suddenly Hash, Takayama & Hoshikawa are on a list of "maimed my headroping moves". That's an extreme. And if someone doesn't buy that Hash died because of a headrop, you risk losing them even buying into the "headroping is dangerous risky stuff that has no business in pro wrestling" point. :/

 

 

The problem is all their brains on both sides of the argument are probably screwed up, as Andrew Martin worked a generally safer style than Benoit, Mick, Sandman, Rotten, Kawada, Kobashi, Akiyama, Williams, Hashimoto, Takayama, Hoshikawa and Misawa. That's the big worry.

I agree.

 

We also need to be clearer:

 

Misawa died from his neck breaking, which isn't the same as Benoit's brain damage or Andrew Martin's.

 

Edge and even Scott Hall have injured their next working a far safer style than Misawa.

 

We can't lump everything in together, other than we know:

 

* A lot of shit in pro wrestling is dangerous

 

* More effort needs to be made in *eliminating* the dangerous stuff

 

* too much effort is made in trying to claim the dangerous stuff isn't, or in trying to make the dangerous stuff "safer"

 

Chairshots are bad.

 

Headrops are bad.

 

I'd just as soon see both gone from wrestling.

 

Powerbombs can be riskier than we think, even after we've seen a ton of "soft" ones... so a lot of thought needs to be put into them. Doing them off cages is pretty fucking dumb. Doing them "hard" or "stiff" is pretty dumb.

 

But even stuff like the Gore/Spear appears to be a pretty damn dumb move.

 

John

[Loss]

I'm curious about how training pro wrestlers has evolved over the years, and if wrestlers are not trained properly anymore.

 

I've said this before, but I'd like to say it again. There is no single thing that would eliminate all of these problems, but I think changing the bumping style would be significant. Wrestlers are trained to take flat-back bumps. They don't in Mexico, and the wrestlers tend to have longer, more productive careers, and the few wrestlers in the U.S. that don't take flat back bumps (Flair, DDP) have wrestled at a high level at an older age than most. I still think there's something to it.

 

I also suspect part of the problem is that there are so many training camps out there now. When most of the old-timers broke in, it wasn't nearly as easy to actually break into wrestling. You hear old-timers make angry comments sometimes about how it's too easy to get into pro wrestling now, and the reason I make that point is that I wonder if the quality of the training has diminished over time. We can see it manifest itself in other ways: wrestlers aren't as adapt at throwing working strikes or working the mat as they were in the past, so it would make sense that they are being taught how to bump improperly also.

 

Especially with so many quick-buck scam schools out there.

[Bix]

There are a lot of big names like Jerry Lawler, Bobby Eaton, and Dusty Rhodes that didn't even have real training, just hung out around wrestling and got outlaw gigs, so who knows?

[kjh]

I didn't know Hash died of headroping. That's news to me.

Hashimoto died of a brain aneurysm. I'm not arguing that he died directly of headdropping and the stiff style he wrestled, but that all the brain trauma he suffered during his career would probably have increased his risk of suffering an aneurysm, along with all the other unhealthy things he did that would have also increased his risk (smoking, drinking, poor diet, stress of running a struggling wrestling promotion, etc). Misawa is unusual that you can chalk up his death to one risk factor. Most wrestlers that die young do such a lot of bad shit, that it's easy for people to deny a certain poison contributed their early death or poor health. Some people are in denial about roids, others about the dangers of a hard hitting wrestling style. :-/

 

With regards to Loss's post, I think that might explain why Dawn Marie has problems with head pain. Many of the Divas get thrown on TV with minimal training and have to work matches with other comparative amateurs, often being expected to take and execute intricate moves and sequences beyond their capabilities, leading to many blown spots and bad bumps due to their inexperience.

[jdw]

Hashimoto died of a brain aneurysm. I'm not arguing that he died directly of headdropping and the stiff style he wrestled, but that all the brain trauma he suffered during his career would probably have increased his risk of suffering an aneurysm, along with all the other unhealthy things he did that would have also increased his risk (smoking, drinking, poor diet, stress of running a struggling wrestling promotion, etc). Misawa is unusual that you can chalk up his death to one risk factor. Most wrestlers that die young do such a lot of bad shit, that it's easy for people to deny a certain poison contributed their early death or poor health. Some people are in denial about roids, others about the dangers of a hard hitting wrestling style. :-/

I suspect over time that I've knocked every type of "hard hitting wrestling style" that's out there. No doubt there some easy stuff out there to find showing me enjoying Hotta stiffing Toyota as well.

 

My point was that if it's headroping, use headroping examples. If it's vampire wrestlers, be honest about the difference between Dusty slicing his head and Sandman and Foley. If we're talking about hard hitting wrestling, there probably are better examples than Hash *despite* the style he worked because folks will point to the cause of death and go, "It's a brain aneurysm... what does that have to do with his style?"

 

We (meaning those of us who have railed against the various stupid dangerous stuff in the ring) have over time convinced a lot of people that things need to change. Not the folks in the business, and not what remains of the "Kill yourself for us" crowd. But the general tone of the conversation is quite different from what it was back when Foley went through the cage. Different from 2003, even.

 

I think that's largely because folks on our side have made good arguments, and the medical facts overtime keep favoring us.

 

We shouldn't cloud that by being sloppy or extreme in making the arguments, but instead stay clear and precise. :/

 

John

[Resident Evil]

What do we think had more of an impact on Benoit's screwed up brain tissue: headrops or chairshots? It's not like Chris was a heavyduty headrop eater, but when needing to eat a chairshot he seemed during and after his time in ECW to want to "make it look good" rather than protect himself like Triple H does (which is ironic since Trip isn't very protective when swinging a chair).

 

Onita is alive. But we have no idea how screwed up his brain is from the chairshots. Dittos Mick, Sandman, Rotten, etc.

 

On the other side, we have Misawa and... ?

It was far from just chairshots that caused Benoit's screwed up brain tissue (and neck, which helped lead to his pain pill addiction). There were all the missed diving headbutts and tons of suplexes too.

 

Kawada is alive. But we have no idea how screwed up his brain is from the headrops. Dittos Kobashi, Akiyama, Williams, etc.

 

But on that same side, we also have Hashimoto, Takayama and Hoshikawa too. Not just Misawa.

 

The problem is all their brains on both sides of the argument are probably screwed up, as Andrew Martin worked a generally safer style than Benoit, Mick, Sandman, Rotten, Kawada, Kobashi, Akiyama, Williams, Hashimoto, Takayama, Hoshikawa and Misawa. That's the big worry.

 

It was also the way he leaned into everyone's offense and the snaps he'd take on his quick bumps. The way he'd run into the turnbuckle.

 

There hasn't been too much talk about this but I always thought that Mike Awesome's style led to brain damage which led to it being easier to commit suicide.

[Dan]

I also suspect part of the problem is that there are so many training camps out there now. When most of the old-timers broke in, it wasn't nearly as easy to actually break into wrestling. You hear old-timers make angry comments sometimes about how it's too easy to get into pro wrestling now, and the reason I make that point is that I wonder if the quality of the training has diminished over time. We can see it manifest itself in other ways: wrestlers aren't as adapt at throwing working strikes or working the mat as they were in the past, so it would make sense that they are being taught how to bump improperly also.

 

Especially with so many quick-buck scam schools out there.

Many of the indy wrestlers today, you have to go back several generations of trainers to find a recognizable name. Even one a few guys from around here that made it, Ken Kennedy, was trained by Mike Mercury, who was trained by Chris Bassett, who was trained by Sonny Rogers, who was trained by Bob Sabre and Kevin Clayton (who?) and so on.

[sek69]

Didn't Harley Race try to get Benoit to stop doing the diving headbutt at one point? I seem to recall him saying he was afraid Benoit was going to end up in a wheelchair since he had problems from it and he didn't do it nearly as much as Benoit did.

[Resident Evil]

Yes, I can't remember the exact quote or quotes but he did want Benoit to stop doing it because of the neck damage it caused and the problems it had caused Harley himself.

[rovert]

Keller's 12/9 News Hotline is worth a listen if you have a subscription re concussions and WWE

[Bix]

Keller's 12/9 News Hotline is worth a listen if you have a subscription re concussions and WWE

Anything newsworthy/of note or just a good editorial?

[jdw]

12/9 Wade Keller Hotline - The News: Major developments with concussion effects, Ross takes a stand, Test update, more (29 min.)

 

This installment of the Wade Keller Hotline focuses solely on the major news of concussion syndrome effects on pro wrestlers including the results of the examination of Andrew "Test" Martin's brain, Jim Ross (thankfully, finally) calling out for an end to any and all chairshots to the head in pro wrestling, Dawn Marie talking to ESPN about Umaga, and more. This is a passionate hotline update that calls for the end of "waiting for more evidence" or further ignoring the strong evidence that the style of wrestling being marketed and featured at TLC on Sunday is now irresponsible beyond any defense.

[smkelly]

SMkelly's post is so crazy and oblivious to reality.

Where do I say that Umaga deserved to die? I reserve those feelings for a very particular group of people – and don’t try to say none of you wishes death upon anyone. If there was some slight error in my post, where I unintentionally conveyed a desire for a man I have never met and has never done anything wrong to me to die, I am sorry. I still would like to see where I said that in my initial post however.

 

If there is one thing I did do, I outright praised the man for being a behemoth in the ring, which I will continue to say for many years. His match with Cena at the 2007 Royal Rumble is my favorite match of the decade – my match of the decade, two enthusiastic thumbs up, 5 stars…

Moreover, and conveniently for a point to be made against me, the August 07 match between Danielson and Morishima is my second favorite match of the decade.

Both involved morbidly obese men fighting much smaller opponents, especially the ROH match. Does that mean I enjoy watching morbidly obese men on a constant basis, hell no. Although Morishima has added another cruiserweight since that time, or he has just lost muscle mass he has always reminded me of a Japanese Terry Gordy or an enormous Japanese woman. There are times I cannot stomach watching his matches because of his size, which I will explain further down in my diatribe of a self-defense.

 

In addition, yes, I meant the oily fat guy who wears a g-string and I believe palled around with D-X – Big Dick Johnson, or something. Men like him, Mabel, Yokozuna, Mark Henry, and Big Sal – repulsive and not enjoyable to watch, especially in high definition. Don’t attempt to play the race card either. Those people sucked at their functions as wrestlers because they can’t even do what they are in the ring to do – wrestle. Fat men are like soft-core porn – a disappointment in every aspect.

 

Vader has never struck me as a morbidly obese man even though he is; the surliness and bastardly conduct persuades me to look past his overflowing gut. His tremendous workrate for a man his size also helps. Umaga was definitely tolerable; I found his character both hilarious and dominating and I thought he was a fantastic worker.

 

My racism of fat people stems from my own personal experiences. In 2004, when I graduated high school I was tipping the scales between 315 and 330 pounds. I had jumped from 175 to that size in six months. It tarnished my body, leaving very red and visible stretch marks. My entire wardrobe was lost. I went from a size 28 waist to a 46. I didn’t let myself go unlike those men who grace the wrestling ring (presumably). If you want a further explanation, I will gladly provide one.

 

Except for how the seriousness of concussions became more well known in the last 3 years and there weren't many examples of exactly what a harder style could do to someone until the same time frame. And then, this year, the poster boy for head drops was internally decapitated.

Concussions were well documented prior to the Benoit Family massacre. Steve Young and Troy Aikman’s professional football careers were ended because of concussions. Bret Hart’s career was ended because of several concussions received in a months’ time. Jeff Jarrett was also on the shelf during that period of time with a concussion. Scott Hall missed time with a stinger and a concussion from the three-way with Sid and Jarrett. Christopher Nowinski’s career was ended because of concussions. I believe Jericho has missed time with a concussion. Bubba Ray Dudley was obviously concussed in a TLC match on Raw in 2003 (?) when he was face planted off a ladder. Hell, in 2001 an organization was formed dealing specifically with concussions in sports.

 

My dealings with concussions are well documented on the internet. I’ve known that for years that brain damage is a probable result of a multitude of concussions – depending on the grade and frequency. I knew this back in 1998 when I received my first of many concussions from a football game when my helmet was knocked off.

 

Misawa dying was very unfortunate. I am a huge fan of him. You mention Meltzer saying it wasn’t as legit as it appears, but in Misawa’s case, there seems to be a clear assumption those years of dangerously landing on the back of head and being spiked directly on top of head proved more realistic than appearances from Meltzer’s eyes allowed.

 

Who are these guys who did nothing but lockups and working an arm for 45 minutes?

That was an exaggeration on my part and I apologize. I was, and am, of course referencing the 1970s in Japan. Those matches bring the old school greatness, but a drastic change was needed to keep fans interested. In addition, being an avid fan of AJPW pre-split, the 70s and early 80s are often a chore to sit through – like the now internet wide famous Broadway with Lawler/Race. Riki Choshu brought the stiffness and head dropping style to All Japan. Jumbo followed suit and passed the torch to Misawa, Kawada, and Kobashi.

 

Head drops got introduced because they looked cool, and for a while, people accepted them, at least in part because people who theoretically knew more like Dave Meltzer and others would say that they weren't as legit as they looked.

I don’t know how you fake being spiked directly on top of the cranium i.e. Williams’ nasty backdrop drivers to Kobashi and Misawa in ’93 and ’94. Some of Morishima’s uproot backdrop drivers are also particularly nasty looking. Re-watching some of the particularly gruesome drops, especially to Kobashi, he typically brings his arms up to relieve some of the impact that is being incurred to his spinal column. There is no telling how much impact is being directly applied to his spine however. In addition, there are plenty of times where the worker is dropped on the back of his head without using his arms to help cushion the impact. Whether those bumps really hurt or not, I do not know, I am not the one taking the move. However though, I have wrestled with friends on pole-vaulting pads when I was a teenager, and it definitely took the wind out of my sails when I landed awkwardly on the back of my head one time. Obviously, that isn’t a concrete example to use in the terms of this conversation, but it does persuade me to think that continuously landing like that will have detrimental effects on a person’s body.

Years of abuse, whether from taking too many bad, not 100% protected head drops caught up with Misawa.

 

'80s wrestling was all about working holds? Really? Are you sure you're not talking about the '20s?

Now you’re just being condescending and arrogant. Think Flair/Steamboat. Flair/Windham. Steamboat/Savage.

 

The Rock says hi.

You mention the Rock, why? He was getting chokeslammed and pedigree’d through tables.

Do you disagree with the assertion that more realism has been added since it was well known that wrestling is an orchestrated and planned ahead of time contest?

 

Or they can learn how to work and throw convincing strikes without stiffing the fuck out of people. It worked well for decades.

Then everything changed. This generation’s wrestlers aren’t as good as those men who were protected by kayfabe and cut their teeth traveling from territory to territory busting their asses. The WWF roster would implode if they had to work the kind of schedule that Flair worked in the 80s. How many WWF wrestlers have succumbed to broken necks in the last decade? Didn’t Cena have his pectoral muscle torn to shreds because of Kennedy’s sloppiness?

In the WWF there is often visible misses that are still sold, it sometimes works, and sometimes doesn’t. Would that go over in Japan or ROH? Not a chance.

 

You're using a quote from a fictional serial killer to make your point about how social behavior works. You do realize that, right?

It makes my disdain for obese people pinpoint clear though.

 

Bastion Booger was made to look ridiculous because it was his gimmick.

Whether it was his gimmick or not, I do not care – it was, and is repulsive every time he is on Raw for a special appearance.

 

I can't think of anyone in the history of major pro wrestling other than maybe Takeshi Morishima who would fit the criteria you're arguing

No offense Bix, but you mustn’t have thought about it very hard – Yokozuna, Mabel, Big Sal, Akebono, Haystack whatever. Yeah I get it though, Yokozuna was a sumo wrestler, and he is supposed to be enormous but that doesn’t mean I am supposed to feel all warm inside because he is performing his function correctly.

 

Major league pro wrestling isn't sold as stroke material though.

The divas certainly are.

Women go ape shit when Cena’s rips his t-shirt off. If Orton weren’t a heel, they would be going bonkers over him as well. All the young punk rock emo girls love them some Jeff Hardy. How many grown women do you know that are avid professional wrestling fans? I strongly believe most women venture to these shows because (A.) Their significant other i.e. boyfriend/fiancé/husband are fans – and – (B.) They like looking at the eye candy (the men) just as much as we enjoy the eye candy (the divas).

 

As far as being unbelievable, I guess you're not an MMA fan. Roy Nelson looks sloppier than most of the famous wrestling fat guys and is a upper level heavyweight who doesn't tire easily. Also, pro wrestling still requires a lot of athleticism. Chris Hero was still able to do long matches at his heaviest and as he lost weight, was able to easily work a 90 minute match 3 months later.

Everyone isn’t created equal. That’s what you just pointed one.

Fedor is the greatest MMA fighter of all-time and he doesn’t have a tremendous physique either and could outlast just about anyone in his weight class. Why is Fedor so dominate, so powerful, so great – because his genes are better than your (not you) genes.

Just because someone like Mark Henry stomps, clubs, and slams his opponents doesn’t make him an athlete. Weight lifting is not a sport and you don’t have to athletic to wear spandex, a weight belt, and squat a bus.

I wouldn’t say easily. Ninety minutes of sometimes often and rapid movement and physical punishment is a daunting task – it would be for any well-conditioned athlete. I do recall a lot of resting going on though, which is obviously going to occur. Just saying is all.

 

[H]e wouldn't need to jump to narcotics just because he's so big

I do not agree with this. The larger the man, the larger the opportunities for pain because of his sheer size, there are/will be a larger amount of nerves and skeletal tissue.

What does the baby aspirin comment even mean? That people who take anything weaker than narcotics are pussies? I mean an adult wouldn't take pediatric aspirin so I dunno.

That is because of the larger mass, larger doses of narcotics will be required to make the pain manageable for a larger than normal man. Like the fabled drinking escapades of Andre the Giant – an average normal man would have died from alcohol poisoning. How often do you see diminutive men competing on the World’s Strongest Man competitions? They are generally huge, hulking monsters. Smaller men usually don’t have the skeletal strength or durability to perform such unusual feats of above average to super-human levels of strength. That was all very simple physiology of the human body.

 

He didn't have to. Plenty of guys have had shitty major matches and still drawn.

Eh. Wouldn’t that defeat the purpose of being a professional wrestler – hell, just being a professional in general? Half-assing his function would have caused turmoil in his career. Had he blown his opportunity against the modern day Hogan it would have been disastrous to the longevity of his career. He probably wouldn’t have been such a focal performer in one of the lead WrestleMania storylines either.

Yes, plenty of people have been lackluster wrestlers, blown major matches, and still drawn. Hogan is the lynch pin for that category. However, Hogan wasn’t expected to be Ric Flair in the ring, he was the unique charismatic super-hero all the kids wanted to emulate. He did the normal routine: get beaten down by an intimidating monster heel or snarky smart cowardly (Piper) hit his trademark moves, tell the children to say their prayers and take their vitamins and the mark fans loved it. That was well over twenty years ago depending on exactly what era we are talking about. Umaga isn’t Hulk Hogan and him not performing his duties and obligations to the extent everyone in the back knows he could – “We wish you luck in your future endeavor”.

 

Yeah, the boxing thing was a spur of the moment thought. I was hindered by time constraints as my laptop battery was at five percent and I wasn’t sure when I’d be online again.

The point with the boxing addition is the fans dictate everything in that sport as well. If the boxers were playing it safe, avoiding everything and not taking chances i.e. “not sticking their nose in there”, and if this is a major advertised bout like the upcoming Mayweather and Paciquo fight, oh boy would the fans be unpleasantly pissed off. I have witnessed this with MMA as well. One of the last Randy Couture fights I saw he just keep pressing his opponent into the cage side and hugging him – and this started from almost the beginning of the fight. The boos drowned out the cheers.

[smkelly]

But plenty of non-roided up looking guys have drawn money in wrestling…Jeff Hardy was the biggest breakout drawing card of the last couple years and he's an average looking dude that wears a shirt to the ring.

But he has that rebellious thing going on that young girls dig, least forget his noted drug habits. The man comes and goes as he pleases, does motocross, is in a band, and paints – it writes itself.

Guys like Cena, Rock, and Batista aren't know for crazy bumps.

While Cena doesn’t take Foley or Sabu style bumps, he does take unordinary bumps for the number one face in the promotion. In addition, the things that make the three you mentioned marketable are their bodies, but that isn’t breaking any new grounds whatsoever.

 

And then there are the fans who go around crying about how "I don't demand anything from a wrestler, so how can you say anythng is my fault?" while bashing Cena because he's a "shitty wrestler" and going ga-ga over the latest match with "sick bumps."

Thank you.

ecause while Umaga may have been overweight, I think it's safe to say that he would still be alive if he wasn't abusing steroids and painkillers

That is pretty much a given. I wonder if he had diabetes.

 

Lawler has taken his fair share of big bumps in his career. Probably a lot more than other performers of his era. His backwards over the top rope bump has been a pretty regular spot in his matches. Yet, somehow, he seems to be injury free after almost 40 years in.

Lawler must be an anomaly. I still heavily doubt the man never did drugs or abused pills or drank booze. If that is actually provable, and he didn’t, he is truly an anomaly of professional wrestling – certainly during the 70s and 80s and in Memphis of all places.

 

Dynamite Kid, who handsomed himself up to your standards with steroids (and also did any drug he could get his hand on), is a paraplegic in a wheelchair with 1.5 legs.

I’ve already responded to this but wanted to hit on a few areas of interest.

Dyno did what he felt was necessary to have an edge on his peers and he did for a short time. He, like many after him couldn’t recognize the cues to hang ‘em up and he has paid dearly. Health typically doesn’t crash and burn overnight; it is usually a science of progression. He either ignored the signs or just popped another pill to make it all go away for a couple of hours before dosing himself again. I have always liked his work but the man is a moron. He destroyed his body and for what? A legacy of how strongly people despised him. It does suck that Dyno wasn’t able to find a less harmful and bodily toxic method to sustain his physique and athletic abilities without knocking down his temple.

 

Mick Foley is a lot more messed up than Lawler, and bumped closer to Dynamite, but he's always been drug free and can function okay. Foley and Dynamite both had a lot of extra weight (different kinds, but they work the same as far as taxing their bodies in taking hard bumps).

Foley’s brain has to be like a scrambled egg and he is going to enjoy the later stages of life as his young adult years proved very costly indeed. Although Foley is not a model wrestler, he is a fantastic talker and brawler. I was enthralled in June 1998 when he was being tossed around and off a cage and then through the cage itself. Eleven years later, I cringe and feel pity for the man who was so desperate and willing to potentially sacrifice his career and life to entertain fans and keep a job. I bet he has an extraordinary time getting out of bed in the morning. Makes me think of that Beyond the Mat documentary when it showed Terry Funk attempting to exit his bed. Uncomfortable to say the very least.

 

Do you remember the “My Sacrifice” music videos from like 2001 or something? The majority of the boys said they continue to push through the pain and the bumps and the bruises and the torment of the schedule to entertain their fans. The one that really sticks out is Steve Austin. That is unquestionably my point.

 

To review and refresh:

• I strongly believe that it is the fans, which caused the wrestling industry to change. Wrestling promoters are in business to make money, so if their projected audience is unpleased with their product they’ll either modify it or continue on the same route and lose money i.e. WCW/ECW/TNA.

• If the fans are craving legalized violence and brutality, that is what they’ll get. If they want strong-style or the slower technical based style, they will get it.

• My own personal view on wrestlers is simple: I want to see someone whom I can identify with on a level of realism and not want to turn the channel. I would rather see John Cena than so-and-so obese person.

• I can only really describe it is if you’ve seen an obese soldier, more than likely it has been a national guard. It sends the wrong image – soldiers are supposed to be lean and healthy looking as they are safeguarding our country and all of that jazz. What sense of security does an avoirdupois person present? Uh, none whatsoever – it makes me cautious for my own safety because what is that obese soldier going to do when all hell breaks loose? I wouldn’t feel comfortable having a fat Marine on my fire team – why you may ask. Imagine being injured and being separated by a couple hundred yards and the heavy set Marine/soldier is the closest one by a mile. You’re going to bleed to death. Because just like wrestling, fat soldiers are anything but athletic, and the ones that are, are anomalous.

• Because of the demands of the job and new methods of training and working (stiffer and more realistic), the wrestlers are being forced to use unnatural means to sustain their bodies and livelily hoods.

• Something I didn’t cover but I think is very relevant to the increase usage of unnatural methods – the WWF’s traveling schedule. I assume that the number of WWF related employee deaths would decline if the company had a lighter schedule. A wrestler can only sacrifice so much before he or she must use methods to catch back up and keep in stride with the ridiculous traveling.

• I am saddened by the sudden death of Umaga. It is sad that people are claimed far too early in their lives by professional wrestling and the dangerous vices associated with it. It is particularly worth mentioning that most of the deaths in pro wrestling lately have come from guys who have wrestled in the modern age of wrestling. To me at least, the younger people are falling into the inescapable traps the older veterans have seemingly avoided like Flair and Piper. Whether it is newer drugs, stronger drugs, more drugs, more longer distance traveling, a harder style on the body – more and more wrestlers are dying in their middle thirties to early forties.

 

J

ust for you I hope they book a Vader, Booger and Big Daddy V vs Abdullah the Butcher and The Headhunters match which will be a wonderful backboobie-fest, even if that means you won't be able to jack off to the wrestlers since they don't meet your aesthetic standards.

Were you attempting an insult? Questioning my sexuality because I prefer healthy looking wrestlers who bring a better realm of realism into a contest that is already devoid of realism, I guess common sense is lost upon people like you. I mean really, is it at all really that difficult to understand the unpleasantness of obese people? Am I the only one with enough courage to admit that fat people are truly disgusting? Apparently so…

 

That it's ridiculous to quote a fictional serial killer make a point about "normal" social behavior.

So is it any less ridiculous to use quotes from non-fictional serial killers? Just asking. The quote I chose is relevant to my internal feelings of disgust to people who completely let themselves go.

 

It went along with the same point you already made: That you (and your theoretical peers) enjoy wrestling more if the performers are physically attractive, regardless of sexuality.

You doubt many people believe this?

Again with the sexuality questioning – I don’t like wrestlers who are fat, because they don’t fit the niche of a wrestler, an actual wrestler. Think outside the box for a moment. In high school they have a heavyweight division, sure, but is it because they want a heavyweight division or is it because they can’t discriminate against the obese?

A physically fit wrestler fits the niche of a wrestler, does it not? Imagine the origins of wrestling competitions, like back in the Greco-Roman days. How many behemoth monsters competed inside the ring/fighting area? I am more than confident that not many did. Ask yourself why.

 

Lawler has a shitload of enemies who call him on a ton of shit, and they've never said anything about his claims to have not drank or done drugs. Foley has less enemies but the ridiculously jaded Dave Meltzer, who's sort of an expert on this, has said that he never did any drugs.

Wouldn’t it be beating the horse if they piled that upon his child molestations and adulterous affairs?

And are you not a leading contributor of bashing Meltzer's random and inane quotes on this very board? Hmm...

 

You said you wanted to see "diesel like fullbacks" which Lawler decidedly is not.

I prefer brunettes but wouldn’t turn down a redhead or blonde.

It is called preferences.

 

There are barely any fat guys in major league wrestling (I make the distinction because so many small indies let anyone wrestle) history who fit your grossout criteria.

For someone who is labeled a wrestling guru you sure don’t remember many big men do you?

Add Rikishi to the list.

Add Earthquake and Tugboat to the list.

Add Abdullah Kobayashi to the list.

 

Yokozuna was incredibly agile and his fat all went to his lower body, concealed by tights, plus he was told to gain weight to get the big push when he went to the WWF (he was much more normal before that).

Incredibly agile, I assume you mean an agile man of his size…

Oh wait, that's right, you can't watch women pretend to fight because it's unnatural for them. Like how girls shouldn't poop, either, right?

Do you keep a journal with everyone’s likes and dislikes posted in it? You are trying to point out all of my flaws and such – those who live in glass houses should not throw stones.

It is obvious you dislike me, and whatever reasoning you have behind your dislike is fine by me. Nevertheless, if this is any indication of what the future is going to bring i.e. any post I make that is controversial that you will fly off the hinge and attack my beliefs with vigor I will retract my account from this site. I do not go out of my way to memorize things about you, things that are particularly…unbecoming of a man of your age. I give you the respect and considerations I hope to receive in return, and whether I receive the same level of gratitude or not will not deter me from being respectful and using tact.

 

It has become painfully obvious that I am not well liked around these parts, for whatever reason. To be honest, I am completely surprised that Phil, Goodhelmet, and Loss haven’t jumped aboard yet to attack me. That is not meant to be a dig of any sorts, but when the proverbial beehive is disturbed – all the drones typically make a gang assault to repel the intruder.

[smkelly]

That doesn't absolve WWE higher-ups and the biz in general of guilt

Firstly and most importantly, it is the problem of the wrestler. They have in fact chosen a career with few ups and years of unpleasant downs. Like I chose to be a Marine, having the forethought that I could very well die, and not always die from combat or from enemies, it wouldn’t be fair to blame the military for my death if I was to die in combat – I voluntarily joined. Men who choose to be ironworkers and work a few hundred feet off the ground, it is their choice to risk their lives on a daily basis – they volunteered.

 

As a wrestling fan, though, I'm not sure how one manages not to feel resentment towards the profession that systematically kills off the people who entertain you.

Of course I have resentment towards the institutions that harbor these men and women to perform for me and indirectly allow them to shorten their lives. It is the same kind of resentment that mothers and fathers, brothers and sisters, friends and family have towards the military when their Marine/soldier/air men/sailor dies in combat or in training. They are looking for a source to blame other than the actual person to be blamed, the person who chose to defend their country. Sure, that sounds fucked up especially coming from a Marine, but that’s life and reality.

 

None of my other hobbies ever make me question whether or not I'm partly responsible for an epidemic of deaths. Why wrestling? Why does this have to be so fucked up?

None of my other hobbies does it either, wrestling is just a fucked up industry.

 

Fujinami didn't come about due to desensitization. Fuck, Fujinami, Inoki, and a broken-down Baba all coexisted rather nicely throughout the late-70's and 80's. Jumbo, too. Choshu and Tiger Mask came in, and they all coexisted. Hansen, Hogan, Andre, Brody, and Dynamite all came through, and they all coexisted. Sure, styles would change over time. They always do. But it hardly seems like a result of desensitization as much as of the natural evolution of a given style. Sometimes, this evolution has taken ill-advised paths, but it doesn't mean they're forced to take them because fans were becoming "desensitized". Fuck, puro nowadays probably has as much headdrops and death-defying spots as it's ever had, and the industry is in the shitter. So obviously, this isn't what the fans are demanding. One of the last guys in puro to be a really consistent draw was old, broken down Misawa throwing a bunch of elbows. He puts Marufuji and KENTA in the main event and no one gives a shit. Desensitization, my ass.

Fujinami has always been old school. Moreover, you’re obviously just looking at New Japan – think All Japan when Choshu came aboard and started the movement of spot/spot/spot ad nauseam until the finishing sequence.

You contradict yourself nicely in the middle of this diatribe.

The industry is in a crisis because what was the new fade (strong style & head dropping) has become passé, worn and faded, they (puro) are in need of something new to revitalize their crippled industry. They are desensitized to head drops; they need something new and fresh to rekindle their desires and applauses.

Misawa could be all about nostalgia, and juniors aren’t supposed to be the main event in Japan, it isn’t Mexico or the North East United States. Shinjiro Ohtani and Jushin Liger were two of the best juniors New Japan had to offer in the 90s, and they were never consistently successful when placed in the main event slot – hell Ohtani sucked ass as a heavy.

 

What 80's wrestling are we talking about here? We're certainly not talking about 80's WWF are we? Yeah, nobody wants a bland technical champ like Hulk Hogan nowadays.

I never say the WWE, so that could have confused you. I should have placed a comma after the 80s as well, another possible confusion. I wasn’t talking about wrestling in the 80s, I was saying if wrestlers (today) wrestled as they did in the 80s the fans would chant boring. Therefore, your dribbling insults afterward are in effect, canceled.

 

ROH is a niche product that's failed to make in-roads to the mainstream despite their emphasis on "the strong style".

And…what’s your point? I didn’t say the opposite of that, now did I? Simply pointing out: independent promotions like the leading US promotion gives the rabid fans that attend their shows the ultra violence they want, mainly stiffer than normal exchanges and dangerous looking suplexes. That is an original point of mine – the fans crave something and they get it.

However, I believe what you’re alluding to is that because a promotion such as ROH features the strong style and head drops and hasn’t become a worldwide corporation like the WWF so it isn’t truly relevant that all fans want those similar qualities in their promotion.

[M]any times throughout wrestling history that the WWE "One Body Type to Rule Them All" isn't the only one that gets over. Like...you know...Umaga's body.

One person compared to how many others that look like male models?

Yokozuna got over, Rikishi got over. How many others?

Would you statistically be able to say that there is a good/great ratio between the built bodies and the flabby bodies? I’m venturing to say no – probably a 95/5 ratio, maybe lower for the fat bodies. So yeah.

 

So, not exactly a relevant comparison.

I’ll give you that one, but add there are exceptions to everything, but primarily, if you look through the history of the WWF, muscular men are the biggest stars and have held that title belt the most. Bruno wasn’t chiseled like HHH or Hogan, but he that aura like Thesz, the “don’t mess me with me motherfucker”.

 

I wonder if you think Vince McMahon's idea to be the storyline father of Stephanie's baby was a good one.

First, there was the notion I am homosexual. Now I am a fan of incest.

What is your quote advertising? That because I dislike fat people that I am gay and enjoy some good ole fashioned family loving.

 

[it's] pretty hard to argue that it's an unrealistic feat when he is actually having a 20+ minute match with John Cena.

Sure, the match did happen, I’ve seen it, probably millions of people have as well – does it make it realistic though, no. Unless Umaga was just a machine there is no way in hell he worked that style of match for that long with that body without using unnatural methods to gain the stamina and endurance it requires to work a match of that length. When I saw that match, I saw a man (Umaga) doing something virtually impossible for a man of his size, which drew me to my conclusion that he must have been using methods that are unnatural.

 

On the other hand, this reality may be unpalatable, and thus better off ignored and erased from history. Perhaps someday, will be able to do that, and the harsh, terrifying reality of fat guys working 20+ minute matches, in the words of Amon Goeth, "will be a rumor. They never happened. Today is history."

Did you online friends here give you a hi-five in a PM for this one? No? Awe, they should have, it was cute.

 

Is responsible behavior solely the purview of the working man?

That is a tough question. Back in the golden age, a man was a man. Now it seems as though men are a dying breed. What exactly are you suggesting with that feminine approach? The WWF hire psychiatric personnel and have their entire roster medical screened and examined prior to every match?

Now, if the WWF had knowledge of any existing injuries or ailments and still allowed the man to continue doing his function, than yes, responsibility would be in their laps then. Is that the fact now, who knows. Has that been a factor in any of the deaths, possibly yes.

 

Actually, most people just want charismatic figures who can tell a good story. That's how it looks to me, anyway. But I'm probably wrong. Society wants reckless endangerment and the most jacked-up, sexy bodies science can give us. You see, our morals, our code, it's a bad joke. Dropped at the first sign of a flabby, shirtless body or a single armbar. We're only as good as the world allows us to be. But you've shown us. When the chips are down, these...these civilized people, they'll eat each other. You're not a monster. You're just ahead of the curve! AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Are you done being an arrogant self-righteous jerk? Are you a troglodyte? Are you ignorant to the American society? Are you being willfully dense?

If the chips mean society, then yes we would destroy each other – state of nature.

 

I'm a pretty apolitical dude, but this seems like a somewhat misguided comment.

I am apolitical as well, want to be friends?

 

As are we all, I'm sure. And that grief will surely lead many of us to project our character flaws, our failings, our hatreds, and even our sexual leanings onto others. But the important thing is that we assign no blame whatsoever to the wrestling business.

What is the point in placing blame on the WWF? To possibly save wrestlers from themselves and the big bad WWF? Get a grip man, there will be no change in the system unless the government makes them change. It is good to see you’re one of those kinds of people though; it is always someone else’s fault.

Blame should come from this order: Umaga, his family, his supposedly close friends, his other co-workers including road agents, and finally the management of the WWF. All of these deaths have always “come by a surprise” – that is bullshit. Wouldn’t you notice if one of your co-workers who you travel with is becoming quiet, reserved, and wanting to be alone? Well, nobody did with Benoit. Yet all of the boys in the back come out and say he was such a fantastic friend and blah blah blah. They are shitty friends then for not telling him to lay off the heavy stuff and lose some weight (which I am guessing is the overlying reason he is dead). You know, be a man and speak the truth even if it hurts – none of that pussified crap of we’re all beautiful snowflakes and beauty is on the inside. Grow up.

Like in the military if someone dies from an overdose or suicide, they always look at the case in the following order – rack mate or roommate, fire team leader if in a combat related MOS, squad leader, platoon leader, platoon sergeant, platoon gunnery sergeant, platoon first sergeant, platoon executive officer, platoon commander, and so on. Blame will never be attributed directly to the top.

 

Or am I being obtuse?

We all are/have at one time or another.

Although you have come across as a snobbish dick in the majority of your post, I like your tastes in movies, as I am assuming you were cleverly using that from the warden on Shawshank Redemption.

[rovert]

Keller's 12/9 News Hotline is worth a listen if you have a subscription re concussions and WWE

Anything newsworthy/of note or just a good editorial?

 

Just a really good, genuine editorial. One part of it kind of plays into what some of you have been talking about in the last 1 or 2 pages. Wade makes the case that wrestlers can define what hurts and what doesn’t giving the example of Big Show's punch, a worked punch which in Wrestling has the same effect as a chair shot.

[Bix]

It might be too big a time waster to reply point by point to smkelly so I'll just say this:

In addition, yes, I meant the oily fat guy who wears a g-string and I believe palled around with D-X – Big Dick Johnson, or something. Men like him, Mabel, Yokozuna, Mark Henry, and Big Sal – repulsive and not enjoyable to watch, especially in high definition. Don’t attempt to play the race card either. Those people sucked at their functions as wrestlers because they can’t even do what they are in the ring to do – wrestle. Fat men are like soft-core porn – a disappointment in every aspect.

Just because someone like Mark Henry stomps, clubs, and slams his opponents doesn’t make him an athlete. Weight lifting is not a sport and you don’t have to athletic to wear spandex, a weight belt, and squat a bus.

The Mark Henry who, at least in the '90s before he blew out his knee, could dunk a basketball? The guy who when in more relatively trimmed down states has had visible ab muscles showing through his singlet? The guy who's probably the strongest man who's ever lived? He's not an athlete? Really?

 

From Sports Illustrated in '91 (at about the weight he's at now 18 years later since he's billed at about 20 lbs heavier than he was weighed then and WWE always exaggerates up):

 

Jones is among the coaches who are convinced that Henry is clean. They were further assured by a second opinion four months ago when Henry accidentally dropped a 352-pound weight on his foot and suffered only a bruise. The doctor who examined the X-rays of the foot was dumbstruck by the thickness of Henry's bones and the density of his muscles.

 

His body fat has been measured at 22%, which means if you took all the fat off him, he would still weigh 289 pounds. Henry bench-presses 542 pounds, squats 895, runs 40 yards in 5.2 seconds, dunks a basketball, can sink into a split and can belt out a Baptist hymn in a voice so sweet that you would swear some diminutive tenor is hiding behind him. "Singing," Henry says. "Girls like that, too."

Mark's size, Barbara figures, came from her mother's side. Her uncle Chud stood 6'7" and weighed more than 300 pounds when he died. Mark's father, Ernest, who was divorced from Barbara when the boys were small and died of complications from diabetes when Mark was 12, was 5'10", 225 pounds. Barbara is 5'4" and 187 pounds. "You could tell Mark had unusually big body structure when he was a little boy," she says. "He was born three weeks early [at a modest seven pounds, one ounce] but made up for lost time."

The key, weightlifting observers say, is to keep Henry interested in lifting and not to lose him to pro football or even to track. Henry threw the discus 176 feet in his senior year in high school—without spinning in the ring.

Jones also found a company that would make a pair of weightlifting shoes to fit Henry. You don't find size 16EEEE on the rack. "We had to trace his foot and fax it to Germany so Adidas could make a custom pair," says Jones. "Adidas faxed back, 'Thanks for the joke.' " Assured it was no joke, Adidas shipped the shoes three weeks later. Finally, Henry could toss aside the hightop sneakers he had been wearing and tie on a pair of shoes suitable for world-class competition.

And no, it wouldn't be better if you were quoting a real life serial killer. It would be worse.