The grand and pathetic journey of the Undertaker at WrestleMania

[flyonthewall2983]

5 hours ago, Boss Rock said:

Somewhat of a side note, the build for Taker-Diesel had the awesome wax replica in a casket bit. He figures Taker's inside and wisely grabs a hammer, only to find the replica. Diesel's reaction is perfect. Doesn't comically overreact in fear, he just slams the lid shut and walks away. Not trembling in fear but seriously disturbed in a "Nuh-uh, I'm outta here!" way.

That messed with my head quite a bit

[Boss Rock]

I think that was the first time they ever did that in a Taker feud.

Another aside, I recall that at Mania 20 Taker had a bit of a hard time rolling his eyes back into his head.

[El-P]

WrestleMania 23 (2007) – Undertaker vs Batista

Ten years after Sid, Taker challenges for the World (Smackdown) Title. Maybe the most impressive entrance, with a wall of flames, crazy fog and thunder and the mythical figure slowly walking down the ring for clearly the biggest big match feel yet, Batista being a really strong and imposing presence, selling the impatience and anxiety inside the ring really well. At this point, this gigantic intro, which is now unchanging, really gives the sense of the Myth. It's like its repetition each and every (or so) year is what matters the most in the grand scheme of things, more than the matches themselves actually. The fact there’s something that always looks exactly the same in a very grandiose way and that it’s directly linked with the evergrowing numerical Streak makes it almost like it was always there as it is now (which it wasn't) and as it is supposed to be seemingly forever.

The match itself is both the best Taker match at Mania yet and pretty much the perfect match for an intense big time stadium show with two beasts colliding. Batista brings so much intensity and energy to every spot he does, nothing is refined but everything looks violent. His punches aren't the greatest, kinda like jacked-up Rock slap-punches, but the velocity he gives them makes them look efficient. It’s also worth pointing out that Taker is the fittest he’s ever been, wearing kickpads (the MMA fetish in effect) and looking lean and ripped. Which also translates into his work, as honestly I don’t think I’ve seen him any crisper. With the exception of a very dubious flying clothesline (poor connecting, kinda messy), he’s also bumping hard, jumping high (his legdrop on the apron looked fantastic), moving fast. It’s really a bomb throwing match, Taker doing his most perfect over the top rope plancha and Batista going Attitude Era big spot with a brutal powerslam on the announce table (while always going back to break the count, which is refreshing).

It must be said that the crowd is also molten, going wild for Taker and booing every time Batista gets the advantage. Nice way of making the most out of every big spots, as the powerslam outside very quickly goes back in for a nearfall. From there they do work the now famous trope of Batista going up in the corner, but in a much more organic way this time, as Batista was totally into a phase of punching Taker left and right first on the mat then in the corner, so it’s like he just wants to get some more traction. Of course, that leads to the Last Ride for a Taker nearfall. Chokeslam means another Taker nearfall and this is just terrific until the end, as Batista finally plants his Batista Bomb, which he had teased earlier, for a great nearfall with an excellent (and justified) despaired look afterward. Batista wanting to be too cute and wanting to use the Tombstone leads his demise, as Taker wins the title.

Terrific match, best Taker match until that point by a very wide margin, pretty much the perfect bomb throwing stadium match they could have done, and also the best Taker single performance at Mania, at 42 years old. 

6-9

[MoS]

Apparently, Batista and Taker were a bit pissed that they were allotted relatively little time for their match, and that it was buried midway on the card, so they both decided to go out and steal the show. You can really see the motivation and the energy stemming from both of them. They definitely accomplished their goal; it has been a while since I have watched Cena-Shawn from that night, but last time I did, I remember picking Taker-Batista as the match of the night 

[Ricky Jackson]

I think vs Batista is my all-time favorite Taker Mania match 

[Boss Rock]

I should rewatch this one.

[KawadaSmile]

Yeah, that match fucking rocks. Batista and Undertaker had great chemistry.

[sek69]

My brain completed erased any memory of a Taker-Mark Henry match happening at Mania, and looking at the recap now I remember why.

[SirEdger]

That Taker-Henry Casket Match was nothing to write home about, honestly. It just felt off to me at the time.

[NintendoLogic]

If you want to know why people were resistant to the idea that Henry had genuinely improved as a worker for so long, the casket match is the primary reason along with the Angle match at that year's Rumble. I'm pretty sure that was his first real push as a serious main event heel, and it's hard to overcome a disastrous first impression.

[Strummer]

Actually just watched that Angle/Henry match a few weeks ago. Had absolutely zero recollection of Melina managing Henry. That couldn't have lasted long 

looking back at that match it was pretty obvious .Henry was having trouble taking Angle's offense

[MoS]

When did the commentators start calling Taker the "best pure striker in history"? Cuz that always seemed to me to be ridiculous and plainly stupid, even by pro wrestling standards. Taker's punches were fine, but not even slightly close to the all-time great tier. And given he basically never threw any other strike apart from punches, this bold claim was made because of his punches

[NintendoLogic]

I believe the "best pure striker" line was first used during the Angle match at No Way Out 2006. In fairness, Cole said it right after Taker threw a pretty great uppercut. More broadly, that match really marks the beginning of Taker's late career in-ring renaissance.

[El-P]

WrestleMania XXIV (2008) – Undertaker vs Edge

First off, let me say this is one of my favorite settings ever. Love the outdoor shows and the Citrus Bowl with the damn giant boat stuff on the entrance was amazing. Taker closes the show once again for the World Title. Hey, no hat ! What’s up with that ? He looks even fitter than the previous year. It’s obvious that he reached the point of wanting to be in Mania Shape to have a great match. He’s not working monster big man anymore as he’s super lean and fast. Edge as a main-eventer is really part of those lost years for me, as showed by his music theme which is sooooo 00’s WWE (aka bad alternative metal), so I can't say I'm overly familiar with his work during this period. Enough to say that yes, he's got those "spamming stunned emoticons" facials that get on the nerves of about everybody on this board, but honestly aren't that much more ridiculous than a lot of things in pro-wrestling.

Not going into details of everything that happens, but basically after the initial exchanges, which had this super cool lucha-libre style double counter of the Old School rope-walk and the now requisite crazy plancha which followed a huge bump by Edge off the top to the floor, Taker bumps outside on the padded barricade. From there the pace slowers down into Edge basically working more or less on Taker’s back, which is a strategy that is worth any other. Taker will regularly get back to sell it even though it’s not the real story of the match. During this sequence, Edge does a really cool back suplex on the barricade, it fits his focus and looks really « bad » (as in « painfull »), with Taker falling off on the audience’s side. There’s also a rather innocuous half-crab spot followed by some kind of leg lock which really don’t accomplish much.

The real meat of the match is coming up and it’s all about Edge being a great counter wrestler. Taker goes for the powerbomb, Edge counters. Taker goes for the chokeslam, Edge counters, twice, always straight into an offensive move. Taker himself counters the spear to finally hit the chokeslam. You can see that the crowd is really playing along, as there’s no much danger of Edge losing from the chokeslam (when neither the Last Ride or the Tombstone had been done already) yet they do count and act like it could be the pinfall, but really it’s not what I’d call a « nearfall ». BTW, the announcing anytime Cole was in with someone else (whoever it may be) was getting worse and worse (the previous year was already pretty annoying) but this year with Cole & Coachman was legit terrible, ruining every nearfall with « The streak is over ! » and using awful verbiage like « The Ultimate Opportunist ». Anyway, so basically Edge counters every key spots, including the non-finishers like the big boot following the Snake Eyes in a great spot and dynamics' shift. Taker actually takes a superplex in the last third of the match, so there’s clearly some out of the ordinary big spots at work. Keeping on with the theme of the match, they use the new trope of climbing the corner only to get the Last Ride but this time Edge counters that too, pretty smart stuff. When Taker actually hits it later, it becomes a legit nearfall then and there’s a really good facial sell (from Taker, of course, not the emoticon spamming guy). First Tombstone counter  and then Taker actually goes back to Old-School, like he's insisting on successfully doing his main spots that have been countered before.

And then the funky part with a ref bump on a missed big boot and they do another cool sequence as Edge taunts Taker which is never a good idea as he get choked, but then again : counter into a balls-shot ! They really do drive the point home and do a great job with it. Then Edge does the old Sid camera shot but as he’s going to revive the ref, he actually pushes him outside in a pretty neat moment so he’s fucked and Taker does the zombie sit-up. Taker then does the Tombstone reversal spot, pinfall attempt, no ref so we have to wait for Charles Robinson to run down the ramp, which is quite funny indeed, and also allows enough time to protect the Tombstone as Edge is kicking out of it : great nearfall. Two croonies show up and they get chokeslamed one over the other outside (brutal) leading into the spear (his best one, really, if there was a time to hit it ok that was it) for another legit nearfall. You know where this is going now, all big spots have been used without success so when Edge is going for another spear (not as good...), Taker is in position for « That Submission Manœuvre » as they say (fuck, the announcing is disgustingly bad) and he wins by tap-out after failing to get the pinfall with his three big finishers. Yeah, this one is a great match, very smart psychology, Taker looked super crisp again (except for the flying clothesline which he doesn’t seem to do right anymore), Edge was excellent at doing the countering machine thingy (one reversal looked kinda flubbed, but it’s ok). Great series of legit nearfalls at the end, maybe there was a minute of two in the middle that could have been scrapped (the whole half-crab/leglock) but at this point it’s nitpicking.

Very different from last year’s match in term of approach and just as successful. Taker wins another title to end the show on a great note.

7-9

[Boss Rock]

The way they took the title off Taker was such bullshit. Vickie stripped him off the championship saying that the Hell's Gate submission was "banned". They had a count-out finish at the following ppv before Edge won it again in a TLC match leading to Taker being "fired". Why waste two months instead of going right to the TLC match?

[Ricky Jackson]

I haven't seen the 08 match since the day of the PPV. For whatever reason, the Taker/Edge pairing didnt do it for me at the time. I mean, in general, as a feud. It went on for most of the year and I really began to hate it. (I was actually a weekly WWE viewer of BOTH Raw and Smackdown then, which seems like a million years ago) I remember despising the Hell in a Cell they eventually had, and even writing Meltzer an email basically arguing that he overrated it. (Lol, why the fuck did I care so much?) I'm sure this match was fine, but reading this reminded me of my strange hang up with the feud and basically the last time I was a devoted TV viewer of WWE

[El-P]

Chapter 7 : The Self-Conscious Epics ?

WrestleMania XXV (2009) – Undertaker vs Shawn Micheals

Here we are. The Greatest Mania Match Ever. I’m not sure they began the whole « point at sign » bit during this build-up (they sure did do it here) but this match was all about the Mania brand, as the Streak itself was a huge part of it at this point. And who better than Shawn Michaels for the ultimate dream match, as his nickname has been Mr. WrestleMania in a very meta way as it came from the fact the had the best « performances » at Mania. Dating back to the infamous ladder match up to the previous year’s « Sorry I love you », Micheals whole identity at Mania is that he was the one stealing the show, he was producing the most memorable moments. The Mania MomentsTM if you will, whereas Taker had the Streak, and it really did not matter that half of his matches were actually pretty bad if not godawful. You’ll excuse me for going semiotics and shit for a second : both The Streak and Mania had reached the point of being at the same time signifiers and signified. Which is the apex of the corporate dream of WWE.

Well, except you still gotta do a match about it and this is, pardon the pun, the perfect match indeed, because Micheals is basically the one guy you really buy can break the winning streak of Taker, simply because of who he is. I’m not gonna go into the religious aspect of the angle, but let’s say Micheals coming from the heaven in a white angelic garb while Taker came from the depths of hell (via a trap door) like a satanic creature (wearing satanic designs on his tights too) is quite the ornamentation and one reason more to Believe (pun intended) that Micheals could win. In other words, those fucking entrances ! Probably the biggest big match feel ever in WWE and easily one of the biggest big match feel ever anywhere anytime. Also, the crowd is as molten as a nuclear plant in Ukraine. Insane sustained heat only going up for the peaks. Just crazy stuff, really.

Ok, but they do work a match. And what a match that is. Taker is still looking super fit, Micheals himself is way lighter than he was in his prime. Both show their age on their faces though. Funny how Micheals became a great chop thrower in the later part of his career, and Taker sells like with enthusiasm. Damn they work quicker than any 44 years old should, with really super dynamic exchanges earlier on. Old-School is done early, as always (when it’s not countered, which is not here), so that’s one out of the way. Taker is using the old Nash spot of getting caught above the ropes into a straight jump onto the corner. The older he got, the quicker and the more velocity he displayed. Working basically one match a year probably helped too. This is leading into Micheals working the left knee, including a Sharpshooter tease and a very awkward Figure-Fourish hold. The nice detail is Micheals blocking Taker’s right hand to prevent getting goozled, which happens all the time. The knee sell of Taker will be pretty consistent and detailed throughout this whole part of the match, even on offense. BTW, JR is announcing and he’s really good here, familiar territory for him. Snake-Eyes/Big Boot with Micheals taking one of his classic rolling bumps, really that first part is better than any other match thus far.

Chokeslam tease countered into a crossface, which is pretty neat from Micheals who has updated his offensive repertoire over the years. That being said, trying to submit Taker is kinda too bold to be believable, but it’s also early on so it’s ok. Micheals also does his classic stuff like the flying forearm followed by the kip-up (after a bunch of selling though), which JR points out he *doesn’t have to do* but will do because he’s Shawn Micheals at Mania. Again, great announcing from JR. Ok let's put it out there already, Micheals was great and I kinda forgot honestly (for a number of reasons), and he’s also still using some very 80’s offense like atomic drops and shit to really good effect, which was kinda cool. Another chokeslam tease countered with a superkick that doesn’t hit *at all*, but the sequence going straight into Taker’s Hell’s Gate makes the screw-up totally innocuous (Lawler even admits Micheals totally missed the kick), as the drama is all about Micheals reaching for the ropes and going outside. A notable counter is Michaels escaping Taker’s apron legdrop (a first at Mania and probably not many have done it), nice touch. But the REAL switch moment of the match happens in two moves : first Michaels does a moonsault from the top rope outside and Taker basically steps back and lets him crash to the floor, it’s insanely brutal and almost looks like a botch (seems like Micheals injured his wrist on this) and then Taker doing his über-plancha onto a cameraman that Micheals dragged in front of him and.... ALMOST LANDS ON HIS FUCKING HEAD ! I have no idea how Taker did not kill himself on that spot. No idea. It looks like he’s falling vertically, head straight down onto the cameraman/floor. One of the scariest spot I’ve ever seen.

From there, its’ basically another match that is gonna take place, as both of them will now sell FOREVER between spots. While they reshow Taker diving into certain death a hundred times, nothing happens until Micheals slowwwwly gets back into the ring and want a count-out. This has now slowed down to a snail pace. Taker has been down for like three minutes now. The whole count-out thingy is cute, but come on now, the Streak ending on a count out ? Get the fuck out. It works, but it’s still pushing it and we’re almost five minutes of *nothing* happening. I get it, but it’s not an approach that I enjoy, it’s tooooo dragged out for me. So now it’s time for the Slow Conscious Epic, with first a chokeslam from hell (Micheals is taking such an admirable bump for this) then more seeeeeeeell. It does work because the audience is in sustained heat mode, which is quite amazing to hear honestly. Sweet chin music after a chokeslam counters and it takes almost ten seconds before the pinfall attempt. It’s not milking the cow, it’s milking a herd of cows. Classic spot of « You don’t get near Taker when he’s down because he’s gonna get you by the throat » into a Last Ride countered but not well enough, so Micheals goes for it and it is a legit great nearfall. But until the Tombstone ain’t there, you know this ain’t over people. Taker attempting the Micheals elbow from the tope rope and failing was a nice touch, but they risk losing the heat by selling for too long between spots now. Can’t deny they find interesting ways to do pretty much everything at this point though, as Taker gets Micheals into the Tombstone spot from the outside and the skin-the-cat spot. False finish with Micheals kicking out, pretty awesome, complete with Taker’s body language selling the WTFuckery of the moment.

But then again they lose sooooo much time selling. I understand what they do but I don’t really enjoy this approach, which can only work with this one-of-a-kind crowd. A totally screwed up DDT used as a counter, that was sloppy, and Micheals is in full overdramatic acting mode as he’s climbing the ropes for the flying elbow, which never was a finisher. And this is a point where the snail pace needs FINISHERS, not lead-in spots. Sweet-chin music again (with people counting along the stomps) and a kick-out-of-finisher that works (I mean, who will complain about that one, in this context ?). They are basically exhausting the big epic Mania match format, and again, why not ? If not them and now, who will ? Still, you can feel this should never be duplicated (*wink wink nudge nudge*) because no context would ever allow it to work like it does here and now. A shot exchange,which has happened in most later Taker matches, very NJPW style but here it’s punch vs chops, getting the pace up again and the crowd pumped up even more with back and forth chants. At this point the name of the game seems to be whoever hits a finisher first is gonna win. And the finish is Micheals going for the moonsault inside the ring this time, which is a huge mistake as he's getting caught by Taker into the Tombstone, awesome looking spot, great finish.

So, it is definitely *not my preferred style* as the super slow selling during the entire second half can get grating. BUT, if you consider what they were going for, in the context they were working in, factoring the crowd who was in sustained heat state the whole time, it would be stupid not to acknowledge that this is an amazing match. This one absolutely reached for the mythical status and succeeded. I would say after that one, the Streak had reached the point where it really should not have ended.

8-9

[Boss Rock]

This match isnt quite as good as I remembered, but it's still really good and a feather in both guys' caps at that point in their careers.

[Log]

Wasn’t the cameraman who missed catching Taker Snuka’s son? And wasn’t he fired for it?

[flyonthewall2983]

It's remarkable that at this stage in his life, Taker was having his best matches. The slow, plodding style he had in the 90's meant for the most part, mixed results. Even the matches with Mankind were more dependent on what amazing and dangerous things Foley did with his body, then the kind of ring chemistry we see here. Both this and the rematch bookend what is an incredible end-run for Shawn Michaels, who one would have thought and accepted that he was probably done in 1998. It's arguable that his 2nd run in the 2000's was as impactful as it was before that time. His abilities never seemed to have gone, even to that last match, you would have thought he could have gone another 5 years or so. 

After WCW was sold the entertainment value of pro wrestling for me as a whole brought diminishing returns, but it was matches like this that reeled me back in. The moments like that since have been few and far between, but to the real fans like most of us it is important to savor them to realize it was never a waste of time.

[Ricky Jackson]

1 hour ago, Log said:

Wasn’t the cameraman who missed catching Taker Snuka’s son? And wasn’t he fired for it?

It was. Not sure if he was fired for it or not, but he was definitely raked over the coals 

Edit: he was released about 2 1/2 months later according to Wikipedia 

[El-P]

Kill girlfriend : Don't worry, we'll take care of this brutha.

Failing to catch Taker on a plancha : YOU'RE FIRED !!!!!!!!!!

Some family members are clearly advantaged.

[El-P]

WrestleMania XXVI (2010) – Undertaker vs Shawn Micheals

There are cases where the n°2 of a series is better than the first one. And it is strange because this match is both better in many ways and not as good in the grand scheme of things. It’s also kinda the same match but not really the same. The presentation itself doesn’t have nearly the aura of the first one, despite (or because) of the stipulation. I mean, I believe most people knew Micheals was retiring then and this was his « Sorry I love you » match, basically, against his most famous rival/partner in the promotion. So as the previous year was the most unpredictable match of the Streak, this one had to fight again a very high predictability in the result and the fact it could not possibly follow the monster they had produced the previous year. Maybe that’s why the crowd wasn’t as hot at the start or maybe the crowd was just not as hot at this Mania period. Also, the setting was not as cool. Anyway there was this feeling of « hey, it’s awesome but we’ve seen it last year ». And they sure did a good job tweaking it enough that in the end, it wasn’t just the same match, only lesser.

First part though was kinda the same match, only in speedrun mode. Micheals going back on working the knee, with this time a good looking Figure Four spot which Taker would reverse (am I the only one getting the irony and callback to the Flair retirement in this spot ?). Taker would again do a great long-ass knee sell, and despite looking not as fit as the previous years, still worked really fast and crisp. BTW, it’s notable that he did not do his flying clothesline in either matches, a spot he was having trouble doing well the previous years. And speaking of spots he won’t do, Micheals prevents him from doing the über-plancha this year. Yeah, that’s the right move, you 45 years old people (fuck, I'm now as old as these two were here!)  Speaking of old skins, Taker looks a bit orange... I was using the term speedrun before and you really get that feel when Micheals does the flying forearm-kip-up super quick while Taker is already up and wham! chokeslam into a « nearfall » and then straight into a Tombstone attempt which Micheals counters in a very Kurt Angle way and... actually moves into the ankle lock. Which no one buys. I mean, it’s a stretch to *pin* Taker at Mania, but making him submit, get the fuck out. Yeah, that spot is a miss, it doesn’t work (and the announcers even say that Taker ain’t gonna quit anyway, yawn).

They kinda reverse the suspens from last match with a Tombstone outside (off an odd looking bodypress) leading to an early almost credible pinfall attempt. But things really never delve into full « drama sell » mode, they will go into big moves territory with counters but keeping the pace at a reasonable speed. And do new counters too, like Micheals countering the Last Ride by some kinda Waltman-ish X-Factoresque spot (which the announcers, who suck, aren’t sure it’s an actual counter). Another really neat idea is Taker countering the diving elbow (something that *never* happens) by lifting his knees, which also hurts where it had hurt before, so that’s a double psychology winner here. They keep it creative and interesting and don’t screw up spots like last year. The Hell’s Gate is countered Bret Hart style by Micheals into a nearfall (again, terrific idea). That is the strenght of this match, it’s less hellbent on big time drama but actually smarter in the way they work around to not have to rely on the big time drama. Of course the superkick will get kicked out of, as will the Last Ride, so there’s a feel of « predictability » and « finisher spamming » that isn’t as exciting as last year when it’s too literal of a *finisher/kick out* sequence.

Moving the match into a different direction that is a callback to Attitude Era stuff and also to the previous year (when Micheals died by the way of moonsault), as Taker gets put through an announcer table via a moonsault off the top rope (which hits straight on Taker's knees, that must have really sucked for both of them). There’s a sense of poetic justice in this spot, which is the big Mania MomentTM spot of the match, and Taker’s selling of his legs once in the ring really make the thing even more dramatic. By that point the pace had to slow down and we reach the «Finish Him! » point of the match. When Micheals kicks out of the Tombstone, it’s not really shocking anymore because he did it the previous year, so in that sense the feel or urgency and drama is a bit lost. So they go into yet another direction, which is basically the « Sorry I love you » part, complete Micheals drama with Taker *not doing* the slit throat gesture, telling Micheals to stay down, only for Micheals to do the gesture himself and slap him, as he asks for the mercy killing. Works a whole lot better than « Sorry I Love you » although it’s also deeply rooted in Micheals heavy sense of melodrama. I mean, considering their career arcs, yes, it does works. Post-match is absolutely wonderful, I wonder if Michaels regrets coming back and looking like crap for some Saudi money he probably didn’t even need after such a perfect send-off, easily one of the best ever.

So, the match had to take another road. It could not be as dramatic, so it wasn’t. It was really smart at points, had the one big spot, a crisper work on Micheals part and although Taker looked a bit older he refrained himself from dying doing a stupid dive which was a good decision. As far as how it’s worked, I like it better than the previous year’s match, but it’s a stylistic point. It absolutely doesn't reach the same level of ridiculous epicness and doesn’t have the same aura at all. So it’s both better in some ways and not as good.

9-9

(hey, there’s a sense of culmination that this final match with Micheals would finally make the score equal)

(FTR, I totally undersold both these matches back then)

[Jmare007]

That's very interesting. I haven't seen the WM 26 match in long time but every time I watched it I came out of it liking it less than WM 25 because the "Big spot" --> take a long ass time selling what we just did --> Do another big spot --> take a long ass time selling what we just did, formula went too far my liking on the rematch.

[Migs]

On 2/25/2021 at 6:41 PM, Ricky Jackson said:

I haven't seen the 08 match since the day of the PPV. For whatever reason, the Taker/Edge pairing didnt do it for me at the time. I mean, in general, as a feud. It went on for most of the year and I really began to hate it. (I was actually a weekly WWE viewer of BOTH Raw and Smackdown then, which seems like a million years ago) I remember despising the Hell in a Cell they eventually had, and even writing Meltzer an email basically arguing that he overrated it. (Lol, why the fuck did I care so much?) I'm sure this match was fine, but reading this reminded me of my strange hang up with the feud and basically the last time I was a devoted TV viewer of WWE

I loved that feud a lot, as I was just getting back into WWE (mainly Smackdown). I still think the matches hold up, and while I can see the argument that the finisher were a bit ridiculous, I actually thought they were a smart way to stretch things out when the matches were still effective. And it let them culminate the feud twice, once in Edge's signature match and once in Taker's. It all would have sucked if the matches weren't good, but I'm on the side of those two having ridiculously great chemistry that justified them having 5 PPV matches in a year, as crazy as that sounds.