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2 minutes ago, Grimmas said:

Differing opinions that are rational and not hateful are the fucking best.

 

I would say my example of challenging the received IWC wisdom on a guy like Rick Martel was the heart and soul of what projects like this were about. If the prevailing view now is to clap like a seal for that received wisdom then that's obvious decline in the discourse.

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It's human nature. I understand it on an intellectual level, as I understand nostalgia (although I hate it), but it doesn't make any sense. It's true of pretty much everything. It's just more comfortable, and the "objective" truth of it is just rationalization and confirmation bias. At some point, you either choose to learn from the new generation of adults coming after you, or you just choose to begin every sentence with "Back in my days" and end it with a *sigh*, with an air of disdain for the world of today. 

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5 minutes ago, JerryvonKramer said:

 

I would say my example of challenging the received IWC wisdom on a guy like Rick Martel was the heart and soul of what projects like this were about. If the prevailing view now is to clap like a seal for that received wisdom then that's obvious decline in the discourse.

Isn’t that why Jumbo dropped though? Why Flair was pushed against? Or the idea that Bossman has BOTH better AJPW and WWF output than Dibiase. You can't have it both ways.

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1 minute ago, JerryvonKramer said:

 

I would say my example of challenging the received IWC wisdom on a guy like Rick Martel was the heart and soul of what projects like this were about. If the prevailing view now is to clap like a seal for that received wisdom then that's obvious decline in the discourse.

Where did I say that? I just praised differing opinions, and you took that as me saying everyone should just accept mass opinions. That's kind of the opposite of what I said.

Whatever your opinion is, that is cool, let's discuss and debate it. If you are rational and after debating it, your opinion stays (whatever it is) that is completely cool. Even if that leads to Flair #1 or Flair #97 or Flair not voted for, I don't care.

Let me repeat it, whatever your views are that is okay. Let's just discuss that, if you have good reasons then awesome, if you don't then maybe that will be exposed and we'll see where that goes.

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3 minutes ago, Grimmas said:

I find the opinion that wrestling peaked during your youth, and also that period is the best period ever a weird take.

This is a ridiculous strawman view of those who champion the old-school. Most of the older stuff discussed certainly predates when I was a fan. But there are some hard facts that are difficult to overlook when it comes to this topic:

 

1. Kayfabe and crowds. Smart IWC culture had an undeniable (in my view negative) impact on crowds and on the way matches were worked.

 

2. Impact of WWE taking over all the territories and imposing a hegemonic, bland and corporate vision onto pro wrestling at the same time as Japan was hitting what some have called a "crisis period" -- this took some years to recover from. There were bright spots, some good indies, some people who tried to do things differently. But the diversity and range of different types of workers was without doubt hurt.

 

These aren't small things they are huge things which will forever delineate a pre- and post- era for wrestling. Of course there has been tons of awesome things since 2001, no one would deny this, but I don't think it's possible to claim or even try to impose some sort of parity because they are completely different beasts. It's not based on nostalgia, it's based on these hard and tangible facts which can't be helped. That Daniel Bryan had an awesome career in such conditions is a testament to his greatness.

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6 minutes ago, Matt D said:

Isn’t that why Jumbo dropped though? Why Flair was pushed against? Or the idea that Bossman has BOTH better AJPW and WWF output than Dibiase. You can't have it both ways.

I mean sure, that's half the fun of it. I think maybe Martel looks kinda high in retrospect and Jumbo dropped too far. But it's a good snapshot of where everyone was.

 

Also, the flipside of what I'm saying is that guys like Jumbo and Flair might be helped rather than hurt since -- again judging by podcasts I've been listening to recently -- the idea of them as GOATs is still gospel in many quarters. I was not trying to have a go at those guys, I like the fact they took the time to put together shows on 70s and 80s AJPW: and they seem to have a certain mystical respect for guys like Jumbo. It's just that y'know, I can't see them getting a Martel or Greg Valentine without a nudge.

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Anyway, like I said, we've got 5 years and even if this is over multiple different locations and mediums, it's up to people to make cases and point out aspects and meet these people halfway and bring it to them. I'm not convinced we're going to have a million people around the internet who are eager to do this but who aren't willing to check out a discussion forum now and again.

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The constant patronizing is unbearable. This poll is not about giving good taste lessons to people.

And some wonder why the GWE last time kinda killed the board... :wacko:

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3 minutes ago, El-P said:

The constant patronizing is unbearable. This poll is not about giving good taste lessons to people.

And some wonder why the GWE last time kinda killed the board... :wacko:

I spent like 2 years of my life running that thing, and then a LOT of work into tabulating and revealing the results. Having people shit all over things because some of the views didn't meet theirs is why I left PWO for almost 5 years.

EDIT: Let's stop the gatekeeping and stop the "you are wrong if you disagree with me" black and white thinking BS and everything will be awesome.

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It will be interesting to see where engagement comes from: there are a ton of quite dedicated fans out there but you also have to be prepared for someone like KENTA breaching the top 50. Those guys should be encouraged to take part in my view.

 

like I said, I have zero investment in where anyone places. Looking back on 2016, the journey was a lot better than the destination. In the end it didn’t really seem to matter that Flair was #1 and Jumbo was #11. I still see guys occasionally mention that time I watched Dragon Gate and seemed to like it. The process was all.

 

I want to try to look at guys in context as much as possible. If there was a flaw in approach before it was the tendency to look at a bunch of matches all of the same guy. I think what you’ve been doing with 1989 AJPW is great Matt since that’s closer to how I think it should be done. You’re likely learning more about the guys in that roster than if you just watched a bunch of Hansen greatest hits or whatever.

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1 hour ago, JerryvonKramer said:

 

I have limited patience for all this kumbaya "you're awesome no matter what" bollocks, but you already knew that.

Would you just fuck off already you pompous asshole. 

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1 hour ago, MoS said:

I mean, the award was named after him cuz he died. Otherwise, I refuse to believe anyone can look at their tag matches and think Brody was a better brawler than Hansen. Like, all the proof is RIGHT there.

Brody won Best Brawler every year until 1986 (Hansen won) and then he won 87 and 88! They literally did think Brody was better back in the day. It had to be the athleticism? Meltzer and those types of fans were moves and athleticism marks back then. So it had to be the ring entrance + size + dropkicks right? 

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5 minutes ago, elliott said:

Brody won Best Brawler every year until 1986 (Hansen won) and then he won 87 and 88! They literally did think Brody was better back in the day. It had to be the athleticism? Meltzer and those types of fans were moves and athleticism marks back then. So it had to be the ring entrance + size + dropkicks right? 

Read the guest columns in the Observer in the mid 80s too. They constantly lament pushing people like Bock in the AWA instead of Brody. He was a great bumper but he bumped so that he could immediately jump to to nullify the point of the bump and make himself look good.

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WON writer/voters always, since day 1, preferred more athletic stuff. Not shocking Brody > Hansen in their view.

When I say voters, I don't mean every single one, but the majority.

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I think in some cases it was even more simple than that. It was about the cool factor and not much else.

When the issue of Hamada now being seen as better than Tiger Mask by a lot of people came up a few years ago, Cornette thought that was asinine because TM had the cool mask. Brody, for anything else you want to say, did have an incredible look and a spectacular entrance.

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Very true about the look and entrance.  I still want Brody to be awesome based on that look and entrance and then am let down whenever I watch a match hahaha!

Its interesting to think about how things might have been different if Hamada had been given the mask instead of Sayama. What does that mean for UWF 1.0? 

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I genuinely do think that's it. Early WON readers also loved Michael Hayes, and his in-ring style was not crazy moves or anything. But he had the rock star gimmick and cool entrance music and awesome charisma.

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Sayama wasn't just a cool mask. If you go back and watch his 1981 debut with the Tiger Mask gimmick, the speed with which he moved and grappled is pretty mind-blowing even today. He made everyone else look like they were moving in slow motion even if it at times led to his reach exceeding his grasp in terms of execution.

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12 minutes ago, Matt D said:

Read the guest columns in the Observer in the mid 80s too. They constantly lament pushing people like Bock in the AWA instead of Brody. He was a great bumper but he bumped so that he could immediately jump to to nullify the point of the bump and make himself look good.

Am not surprised that someone who was a source and friendly to newsletter purveyors might have a more favorable view of their work in said realms and that cascades from there (his style is definitely more athletic than an Abdullah for example and would appeal more to that crowd). See also Jim Cornette winning manager of the year from 1984 to 90 then 92 to 96 as to how that dynamic manifests itself. 

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3 minutes ago, NintendoLogic said:

Sayama wasn't just a cool mask. If you go back and watch his 1981 debut with the Tiger Mask gimmick, the speed with which he moved and grappled is pretty mind-blowing even today. He made everyone else look like they were moving in slow motion even if it at times led to his reach exceeding his grasp in terms of execution.

Sure it is. The point being that there are things most of the early 80s WON favorites have in common.

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7 minutes ago, NintendoLogic said:

Sayama wasn't just a cool mask. If you go back and watch his 1981 debut with the Tiger Mask gimmick, the speed with which he moved and grappled is pretty mind-blowing even today. He made everyone else look like they were moving in slow motion even if it at times led to his reach exceeding his grasp in terms of execution.

Agreed. And he was also really good in the first UWF, and the way he used to mix the burgeoning shoot-style stuff with straight pro-wrestling spot really foreshadows the bizarre mix of later years in UWF-I or Battlearts. Tiger Mask had issues for sure (yeah, he was sloppy, yes, he did not like to sell a lot although that's how you made yourself a star like Inoki), but there's something about him that goes beyond the gimmick. 

As far as Brody goes, there's something about what you project. And Brodie projected a dangerous aura. And yes, the fact he did not like to sell much and no-sold after taking bumps absolutely contributed to that aura. All of which made him a star. Maybe that's the "genius" of Brody. (I don't love his stuff, but I always had a soft spot for him)

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