2026 Ideas

[LowBlowPodcast]

True - but its wrong for me to have that as part of my own personal reasons that I view someone as the greatest of all time?

The drawing one is probably going to be cut.. but I do think that the promo is something that is essential to greatness although it would be hard for me to judge that with wrestlers from other countries.

[Grimmas]

1 minute ago, LowBlowPodcast said:

True - but its wrong for me to have that as part of my own personal reasons that I view someone as the greatest of all time?

The drawing one is probably going to be cut.. but I do think that the promo is something that is essential to greatness although it would be hard for me to judge that with wrestlers from other countries.

That's the issue, it creates a bias for people who speak the language you do.

[LowBlowPodcast]

Just now, Grimmas said:

That's the issue, it creates a bias for people who speak the language you do.

But if that's all I know at this point that would give me the opportunity to reach out and try and learn other things.

If you have a more specific criteria that I should follow let me know so I can do what I am supposed to... do you see the problem there?

One ballot won't make the case for anyone but the fact that the things I view as important have already been degraded what am I supposed to do from here?

[Grimmas]

Just now, LowBlowPodcast said:

But if that's all I know at this point that would give me the opportunity to reach out and try and learn other things.

If you have a more specific criteria that I should follow let me know so I can do what I am supposed to... do you see the problem there?

One ballot won't make the case for anyone but the fact that the things I view as important have already been degraded what am I supposed to do from here?

There is no real criteria, but you might want to re-evaluate it yourself. Charisma, okay. How they act, perfect. How they talk? That's kind of like counting movie trailers while rating a movie, that seems off, eh?

Also I would recommend not saying I am only going to explore people who speak my language, you can imagine the problems with that. 

Basically what  you are saying is you will be voting for the best movie ever, you will discount any film not made in America and you will count the trailers towards how good the movie is. Does that sound like the tact you want to take?

[LowBlowPodcast]

 

3 minutes ago, Grimmas said:

There is no real criteria, but you might want to re-evaluate it yourself. Charisma, okay. How they act, perfect. How they talk? That's kind of like counting movie trailers while rating a movie, that seems off, eh?

Also I would recommend not saying I am only going to explore people who speak my language, you can imagine the problems with that. 

Basically what  you are saying is you will be voting for the best movie ever, you will discount any film not made in America and you will count the trailers towards how good the movie is. Does that sound like the tact you want to take?

Where did I say I would only grade people who speak the language I do? Because I view promos as important? Is that the same thing. I do think there is definitely a piece of this puzzle that has how someone acts or plays their role. You could even put selling into this criteria.

I'm interested to see how your conclusions have been drawn from my words because I am not seeing the same thing.

I wanted to reach out and try to be a part of this and you've already pushed me away. Now I have to keep to myself so I don't get trolled for having a different idea and trying to build on the knowledge I already have but also learning new things. Thanks bud.

[Grimmas]

7 minutes ago, LowBlowPodcast said:

 

Where did I say I would only grade people who speak the language I do? Because I view promos as important? Is that the same thing. I do think there is definitely a piece of this puzzle that has how someone acts or plays their role. You could even put selling into this criteria.

I'm interested to see how your conclusions have been drawn from my words because I am not seeing the same thing.

I wanted to reach out and try to be a part of this and you've already pushed me away. Now I have to keep to myself so I don't get trolled for having a different idea and trying to build on the knowledge I already have but also learning new things. Thanks bud.

You came in here and kind of ignored the whole point of the project, so I tried to steer you in the right direction but pointing out the issues with your thinking in relation to this project. If you see that as an attack to push you away, I am sorry. I don't know what to tell you.

There is discussions earlier in this very thread about how drawing power and promo ability is not valid. Which, I guess, you clearly ignored. 

There is no correct criteria for someone to say who is the greatest wrestler ever, but there is wrong things you can look at. How good they talked and how much money they made aren't relevant here.

I'd love to have as many voices as possible, but it's up to you. Accept that those things aren't really involved for the reasons I stated and what was brought up earlier in this thread, or, as you put it, retreat back away.

[El-P]

BTW :

1 hour ago, Matt D said:

Also, we have almost ten years of the French footage available (over a hundred matches) for anyone who wants to take a look, and more's out there every week.

This is very much appreciated.

[LowBlowPodcast]

1 minute ago, Grimmas said:

Wow. 

You came in here and kind of ignored the whole point of the project, so I tried to steer you in the right direction but pointing out the issues with your thinking in relation to this project. If you see that as an attack to push you away, I am sorry. I don't know what to tell you.

There is discussions earlier in this very thread about how drawing power and promo ability is not valid. Which, I guess, you clearly ignored. 

There is no correct criteria for someone to say who is the greatest wrestler ever, but there is wrong things you can look at. How good they talked and how much money they made aren't relevant here.

I'd love to have as many voices as possible, but it's up to you. Accept that those things aren't really involved for the reasons I stated and what was brought up earlier in this thread, or, as you put it, retreat back away.

I will steer clear. No worries from my end.

[elliott]

42 minutes ago, El-P said:

BTW :

This is very much appreciated.

I feel like after finishing up Joshi, the French stuff is going to be my next venture. 

[Clayton Jones]

3 hours ago, elliott said:

I can help you with a plan for 80s and 90s Joshi for sure. A decent chunk of my upper tier is gonna come from that era. I voted for Joshi mostly based on memory last time around. Having gone through a ton of it over the last couple of years, that was a big mistake.   Hokuto, Bull, Devil, Dump, Jaguar, and Chigusa are all wrestlers likely to make or at least contend for spots in my top 10. The best 80s and 90s Joshi is the best stuff I've ever watched. 

I'd love to focus more on this crop of names, the more you promote the more I'll watch. Hokuto is the only one especially high on my first draft. I could see Bull sky rocketing when I tackle her, but the rest are not likely to crack my top 100 without guidance.

Man, 100 spots go quick, now my "under consideration" list keeps growing. I'll have to cap that at some point to keep things manageable. I want to spend a decent amount of time on everyone I'm considering, from #1 to #183 or what have you. That's the part I'm enjoying most, deciding who's up next to watch.

[El-P]

35 minutes ago, elliott said:

I feel like after finishing up Joshi, the French stuff is going to be my next venture. 

What is your focus on joshi btw ? I have the AJW Classics on a hard drive so that will be the priority, but I'd want to (re)visit some of JWP and also some of the late 90's/early 00's stuff we talked about (GAEA, Neo, Jd', revisit ARSION),  and some "current" names (basically from the last 10 years) eventually (Kana/ASUKA).

[Matt D]

2 hours ago, El-P said:

If you've watched the 80's stuff (or the non AJPW Tenryu stuff) and you want to include them, of course, no reason not to. You can't watch everything.

I think someone could, but I don't think I could. Kawada, Kobashi, and Misawa are frontrunners. Jumbo and Tenryu are frontrunners. Choshu's a frontrunner. They're contemporary enough or from the same style. Apples to apples. I personally feel like I can't rate one without rating all. I'm ok with someone feeling otherwise. I think (hope) I can draw the line at Akiyama though, so there is a line.

[El-P]

9 minutes ago, Matt D said:

I think (hope) I can draw the line at Akiyama though, so there is a line.

Why poor Akiyama ?  He's certainly a guy who has suffered before and will suffer from the lack of awareness his later career gets, as he really stays in the shadow of Kobashi and even old Misawa in NOAH in the 00's and then his post-peak works (which seem to get a lot of love from some people) in NOAH/AJPW when both promotions really aren't spotlighted at all anymore (not to even talking about Go Shiozaki and the likes).

[Matt D]

5 minutes ago, El-P said:

Why poor Akiyama ?  He's certainly a guy who has suffered before and will suffer from the lack of awareness his later career gets, as he really stays in the shadow of Kobashi and even old Misawa in NOAH in the 00's and then his post-peak works (which seem to get a lot of love from some people) in NOAH/AJPW when both promotion really aren't spotlighted at all anymore.

Primarily time. I'd have to go forward to virtually today if I wanted to fully examine him. I know I saw an interesting 2018 match vs Suwama. That's decades of extra stuff without a basis. We'll see what happens but I find it unlikely. He's a 2036 guy for me.

[elliott]

25 minutes ago, Clayton Jones said:

I'd love to focus more on this crop of names, the more you promote the more I'll watch. Hokuto is the only one especially high on my first draft. I could see Bull sky rocketing when I tackle her, but the rest are not likely to crack my top 100 without guidance.

Man, 100 spots go quick, now my "under consideration" list keeps growing. I'll have to cap that at some point to keep things manageable. I want to spend a decent amount of time on everyone I'm considering, from #1 to #183 or what have you. That's the part I'm enjoying most, deciding who's up next to watch.

 

Once Grimmas officially does the roll out and the project starts, I will promote the heck out of the Joshi people I like. I'll be happy to go really in depth on recommendations or walking through a specific case. Of if you just wanna dip your toes in, I'm happy to help with that too.  Whatever. 

 

16 minutes ago, El-P said:

What is your focus on joshi btw ? I have the AJW Classics on a hard drive so that will be the priority, but I'd want to (re)visit some of JWP and also some of the late 90's/early 00's stuff we talked about (GAEA, Neo, Jd', revisit ARSION),  and some "current" names (basically from the last 10 years) eventually (Kana/ASUKA).

Basically this exactly. Over the last several years I've gone through the original AJW Classics on Samurai in full. I've watched all of the stuff on 90s Yearbooks and other 90s stuff that didn't make it on the yearbooks. I'm going to go through all of Alex's youtube channel to fill in gaps on 80s TV i've missed. I was about to do that but sort of got sidetracked on that late 90s/early 00s stuff that I've been watching lately. I feel like I'm solid on all the big names up until like 2002ish. I don't really need to watch anymore Chigusa or Nakano to know them as wrestlers. But there are some folks that weren't featured as much on Classics I wanna look closer at like Jumbo Hori or Yumi Ikeshita. I don't have much 90s work to do but there's a few things here and there. Like I haven't watched much pre-Arison Mariko Yoshida in a couple of decades at least so I need to spend a little time on things like that.  I'm basically a blank slate on 2003-present day Joshi so if anyone wants to take that journey with me, that'd be great! 

[Loss]

I'm not going to tell anyone that they're wrong about how they watch wrestling or approach this project, because I don't think that's particularly useful. That said, I do think it's an interesting approach to consider literally everything, weigh for yourself what matters most among those things, and create a list off of that. Perhaps it's true that doing so misses the point of the project, but does not doing so miss the point of being a wrestler?

[JerryvonKramer]

Some dweeb came up with a rating system in 2016.

Also Matt, you should have fun with Pat Patterson. One little detail from the AJPW stuff that was surprising was that he help to train Yatsu. No wonder I love Yatsu. 

[elliott]

Is the plan on PWO to use the same forum and wrestler threads as before? 

[Grimmas]

26 minutes ago, elliott said:

Is the plan on PWO to use the same forum and wrestler threads as before? 

Elliot, you know you have to wait for the GWE Launch Party podcast to get those questions answered. Released WrestleMania week.

[Grimmas]

Speaking of which, it's half recorded, I have 3 more guests to record segments with, but yes how to participate, where, and the outline of the project will all be released on that podcast. Not only that, but many guests all talking different aspects of the project, plus looking back at 2016 and looking forward to 2026.

Some nice guests indeed, I'm looking forward to everybody hearing it.

[Grimmas]

4 hours ago, Loss said:

I'm not going to tell anyone that they're wrong about how they watch wrestling or approach this project, because I don't think that's particularly useful. That said, I do think it's an interesting approach to consider literally everything, weigh for yourself what matters most among those things, and create a list off of that. Perhaps it's true that doing so misses the point of the project, but does not doing so miss the point of being a wrestler?

The point of wrestling and being an actor is the same, money. Does that mean The Rock is the best wrestler ever and the best actor ever? I would say no, and very few people looking into actors would think The Rock is even a contender for best actor, but you can't deny his boxoffice.

Although I don't follow things enough, but is there any critics for music or movies that do their reviews based on the money those things make?

[elliott]

 

46 minutes ago, Grimmas said:

Elliot, you know you have to wait for the GWE Launch Party podcast to get those questions answered. Released WrestleMania week.

Can't wait!

[elliott]

43 minutes ago, Grimmas said:

The point of wrestling and being an actor is the same, money. Does that mean The Rock is the best wrestler ever and the best actor ever? I would say no, and very few people looking into actors would think The Rock is even a contender for best actor, but you can't deny his boxoffice.

Although I don't follow things enough, but is there any critics for music or movies that do their reviews based on the money those things make?

I like the movie analogy you brought up earlier. There are definitely people who think Avengers Endgame or Avatar is the best movie ever. They could point to a bunch of things in the movies that they think are great and contribute to the greatness of the movie. But surely no one would say "I think this is great because it made the most money ever." NO one thinks like that right?

[elliott]

14 hours ago, Matt D said:

It'll be a bit like how I'm using Hash. I'll use Kandori to branch out in other directions. I'm sure Nakano will be that direction and I'll have to go backwards with her quite a bit. I'm not totally blind to joshi but I definitely don't have the comprehensive knowledge I'd like and I have to come at this with some plan or it'll be madness (for me at least).

I thought more about this and honestly I think Nakano is the best person to use as your central figure.

First, Kandori is awesome. I don't mean to discourage watching her. She'll absolutely be on my list and place well. Watch every Kandori match. But I'm not sure she's the right choice to examine Joshi from a relatively limited starting point. 

Kandori only worked for All Japan Women as an outsider. So unless you're deep diving strictly on early JWP and  LLPW (under the radar promotions without many fellow strong top 100 candidates), you're mostly going to see Kandori in an interpromotional match setting. I know you want to see wrestlers in a variety of settings. Kandori kind of limits you there. If you're watching Kandori in a match with a fellow top 100 candidate, its going to be an interpromotional big match setting. You're not going to get a "small" match.

In addition to being one of the two or three best Joshi workers ever, Nakano is the bridge from the peak 80s Crush Girls era to the mid 90s Interpromotional Era. If you use Bull as the your hub, you'll get to see every single Joshi candidate from the two peak periods. Kandori is a little more limiting. Bull is also a good control figure to measure the early 90s AJW stars. People like Aja, Yamada, Toyota, Kyoko are still young and finding themselves as workers. Whereas by 1990 Bull was at her peak as the best in the world who consistently delivered. 

Again I don't mean suggest you shouldn't watch Kandori. Watch the hell out of Kandori. But being a bit familiar with your process and what you're looking for, I think Bull is the easiest vessel to get you where you need to go if you want to take a look at the broader landscape. 

Just trying to help control the madness.

[El-P]

2 hours ago, elliott said:

But I'm not sure she's the right choice to examine Joshi from a relatively limited starting point. 

If you're watching Kandori in a match with a fellow top 100 candidate, its going to be an interpromotional big match setting. You're not going to get a "small" match.

This. Plus, Kandori is about the least representative worker of what joshi puroresu was stylistically at that time. She brought something very different, which was great at times, but she was very much her own beast.