2026 Ideas

[Jmare007]

1 hour ago, Matt D said:

I'll have some time for a tiny bit of 21st century wrestling in 2023, maybe. We can pencil this in for June.

I'll remember this.

[Shrike02]

I plan to participate and I have to disagree in the sense that the PWO forums offer a good clean way to organize and archive participation. Using Discord, Zoom and so forth is all well and good but any useful and stimulating discussion should ultimately be codified/transcribed here for future use. Putting out podcasts on the PWO feed well before the voting period is obviously another avenue.

[elliott]

 

30 minutes ago, dkookypunk43 said:

I'm actually concerned with the way this is going that this will be on the forum almost exclusively and I wanna say that I want newer blood in this project and to reevaluate and to see where the smarter wrestling fandom is as a whole on a grander scale. I feel if it's just limited to the board or if we don't incorporate the new platforms that have come over the past 3-5 years, it's saying we haven't evolved past a certain point. I wanna use Discord, I wanna use Discord, I wanna use Zoom, that stuff is more instantaneous and attractive to me to be a part of a discussion than say a message board. The impact of these mediums are a wider scale than you think and Steven has openly talked about opening the discussion up. We sometimes have our heads so far up our ass we don't see the obvious. I'll be disappointed to say the least if the majority of the hosting is done on PWO, because I don't just think about now but what message board culture and attention spans will look like 5 years from now when we actually vote. 

 

I can't tell if this is a joke or not because its been 3 whole weeks of pre-project discussion for a project 5 years away and this thread is full of people making suggestions from zoom to discord to twitter to youtube and people encouraging openness and inclusivity. Grimmas has said repeatedly that he wants to use other modes of communication and not just limit it to PWO. No one is saying they want it to be PWO only.

[dkookypunk43]

I'm sorry I have anxiety about this and didn't know how to express it. I apologize

[elliott]

Its gonna be awesome and we're all going to have so much fun watching, writing, reading, talking and thinking about a ton of great wrestlers! Theres nothing to worry about! I am firmly in the 2016 was a blast camp and I think this one will be even better! 

The only anxiety should be about cutting a list down to only 100 because theres so much great wrestling!

[Loss]

A lot of that dread I think came from people who had been having those conversations for 15-20 years and felt like they were going in circles. Some people had just been around too long and participated in two GWE projects and by the end of the second one they felt like there was nothing new to discuss. It's not anyone's fault, it's just that some people entered wrestling message boarding at different points.

I can assure you that if I participate this time, there are a lot of topics where I'd just want to not engage at all. There are only so many times you can talk about some of these things. I've been responding to the "Ric Flair worked the same match with everyone" criticism too long and I don't want to talk about it anymore. That doesn't mean that if others want to that they shouldn't.

[elliott]

My advice to people who didn't participate in 2016 or jumped in at the end  is pretty simple:

1. Have fun. First and last have fun. If that means engaging in as many discussions as possible on every available platform, that's great! Do that! There will be plenty of people who take things way too seriously right along with you. If you want to be a more passive participant and just follow along with discussions and not really join in, I think that's fine too. There's no participation requirement or minimum. Figure out how to make GWE work for you. 

2. Don't expect to fill all of your gaps. Its a noble goal and I would definitely encourage watching as much as possible. But sometimes you just run out of time. And other things you just don't like and that's fine too. If you hate old school wrestling, don't feel like you have to go out and watch a bunch of Lou Thesz just because. You don't HAVE to vote for anyone. This is a hobby, it isn't homework. There is zero way I'm going to watch a bunch of Nigel McGuinness and thats fine. I don't have oo. Just like no one HAS to watch a bunch of Ron Starr just because I really like him. 

3. Don't expect to have an opinion on every wrestler, even if it seems like some people do. 

4. If you need to take a break, take a break. You don't have to binge watch wrestling everynight for 5 years. No one expects that. Unless thats what brings you joy. In that case, go for it! You won't get any judgment here. 

5. Remember its about having fun. You get out of the project what you put in. If you focus solely on tearing down candidates you feel forced to watch but don't enjoy or can't accept criteria or some particular argument is rubbing you the wrong way and you keep engaging in it, then you're going to fucking hate this project. If you focus on watching and talking about the things you like, you're going to have a great time. Have a great time! Wrestling is fun! 

6. Terry Funk for #1! 

[dkookypunk43]

2 hours ago, elliott said:

My advice to people who didn't participate in 2016 or jumped in at the end  is pretty simple:

1. Have fun. First and last have fun. If that means engaging in as many discussions as possible on every available platform, that's great! Do that! There will be plenty of people who take things way too seriously right along with you. If you want to be a more passive participant and just follow along with discussions and not really join in, I think that's fine too. There's no participation requirement or minimum. Figure out how to make GWE work for you. 

2. Don't expect to fill all of your gaps. Its a noble goal and I would definitely encourage watching as much as possible. But sometimes you just run out of time. And other things you just don't like and that's fine too. If you hate old school wrestling, don't feel like you have to go out and watch a bunch of Lou Thesz just because. You don't HAVE to vote for anyone. This is a hobby, it isn't homework. There is zero way I'm going to watch a bunch of Nigel McGuinness and thats fine. I don't have oo. Just like no one HAS to watch a bunch of Ron Starr just because I really like him. 

3. Don't expect to have an opinion on every wrestler, even if it seems like some people do. 

4. If you need to take a break, take a break. You don't have to binge watch wrestling everynight for 5 years. No one expects that. Unless thats what brings you joy. In that case, go for it! You won't get any judgment here. 

5. Remember its about having fun. You get out of the project what you put in. If you focus solely on tearing down candidates you feel forced to watch but don't enjoy or can't accept criteria or some particular argument is rubbing you the wrong way and you keep engaging in it, then you're going to fucking hate this project. If you focus on watching and talking about the things you like, you're going to have a great time. Have a great time! Wrestling is fun! 

6. Terry Funk for #1! 

Yeah, I really like this. I wasn't going to comment but I really like the approach here. I was just putting pressure on myself and taking this way too seriously to begin with. I think it ultimately should be fun and not a chore. I think everyone's list is uniquely theirs. I for instance connect to the the modern New Japan style more than some because that's the stuff that helped me stay a fan of wrestling. So I may have Kazuchika Okada on my #1 contender short list. I like other styles of wrestling and appreciate it but some are going to get more of a favorable look than others because I just like it more and that's ok. But through my podcast, Great Match Generator I can appreciate say a Giant Baba vs Fritz Von Erich match from 1966 (which is an actual JWA match I watch and it ruled) and take a look at Baba deeper or Fritz deeper. IT's all about taste and preference. I also think I should take breaks because I feel that would be good for my mental health because of my shift in focus to classic wrestling. Anyways here's this Giant Baba vs Fritz match https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzADuUaxIjw

[El-P]

3 hours ago, elliott said:

My advice to people who didn't participate in 2016 or jumped in at the end  is pretty simple:

1. Have fun. First and last have fun. If that means engaging in as many discussions as possible on every available platform, that's great! Do that! There will be plenty of people who take things way too seriously right along with you. If you want to be a more passive participant and just follow along with discussions and not really join in, I think that's fine too. There's no participation requirement or minimum. Figure out how to make GWE work for you. 

2. Don't expect to fill all of your gaps. Its a noble goal and I would definitely encourage watching as much as possible. But sometimes you just run out of time. And other things you just don't like and that's fine too. If you hate old school wrestling, don't feel like you have to go out and watch a bunch of Lou Thesz just because. You don't HAVE to vote for anyone. This is a hobby, it isn't homework. There is zero way I'm going to watch a bunch of Nigel McGuinness and thats fine. I don't have oo. Just like no one HAS to watch a bunch of Ron Starr just because I really like him. 

3. Don't expect to have an opinion on every wrestler, even if it seems like some people do. 

4. If you need to take a break, take a break. You don't have to binge watch wrestling everynight for 5 years. No one expects that. Unless thats what brings you joy. In that case, go for it! You won't get any judgment here. 

5. Remember its about having fun. You get out of the project what you put in. If you focus solely on tearing down candidates you feel forced to watch but don't enjoy or can't accept criteria or some particular argument is rubbing you the wrong way and you keep engaging in it, then you're going to fucking hate this project. If you focus on watching and talking about the things you like, you're going to have a great time. Have a great time! Wrestling is fun! 

6. Terry Funk for #1! 

Pretty much makes a great guideline.

N°6 is give or take, but I would not be pissed off at all by that result either.

[Grimmas]

The launch party podcast will be coming out right before WrestleMania and recorded over the next few weeks or so. I have a whole slew of amazing guests lined up, but outside of how to participate and the rules, what all do you want to hear in discussions?

[AstroBoy]

No specific requests about the pod discussion, just wanted to drop in here and say I'm excited that talk is going on about this.  The 2016 project really expanded my wrestling fandom in a great way and I was sad to see some of the splintering that came in the aftermath.  Hoping that this rendition will rejuvenate my desire to watch wrestling on a regular basis again.  And thanks, Steven, for doing so much legwork to set this all back up.

[concrete1992]

Is it Mania weekend yet? The thing I'm most looking forward to is figuring out the feel of who has shifted over the past five years. There were a lot of wrestlers that may have been solid picks that I don't think we as a collective really did the proper "process" with which I think is going to be awesome. Folks like Fred Yehi, Drew Gulak, Super Dragon, Ikuto Hidaka, etc. Your post 2000s candidates.

[Matt D]

4 minutes ago, concrete1992 said:

Is it Mania weekend yet? The thing I'm most looking forward to is figuring out the feel of who has shifted over the past five years. There were a lot of wrestlers that may have been solid picks that I don't think we as a collective really did the proper "process" with which I think is going to be awesome. Folks like Fred Yehi, Drew Gulak, Super Dragon, Ikuto Hidaka, etc. Your post 2000s candidates.

That'll be my 2036 deal. I'm glad to work to clear up the blind spots pre-2000 I still have here so that there aren't guys in my 70s or 80s that I couldn't justify nearly as well. My criteria is pretty unforgiving (to me more so than the wrestlers!) and I think over the next years I can sure up most of pre-2000.

[ohtani's jacket]

On 3/14/2021 at 11:19 PM, elliott said:

My advice to people who didn't participate in 2016 or jumped in at the end  is pretty simple:

1. Have fun. First and last have fun. If that means engaging in as many discussions as possible on every available platform, that's great! Do that! There will be plenty of people who take things way too seriously right along with you. If you want to be a more passive participant and just follow along with discussions and not really join in, I think that's fine too. There's no participation requirement or minimum. Figure out how to make GWE work for you. 

2. Don't expect to fill all of your gaps. Its a noble goal and I would definitely encourage watching as much as possible. But sometimes you just run out of time. And other things you just don't like and that's fine too. If you hate old school wrestling, don't feel like you have to go out and watch a bunch of Lou Thesz just because. You don't HAVE to vote for anyone. This is a hobby, it isn't homework. There is zero way I'm going to watch a bunch of Nigel McGuinness and thats fine. I don't have oo. Just like no one HAS to watch a bunch of Ron Starr just because I really like him. 

3. Don't expect to have an opinion on every wrestler, even if it seems like some people do. 

4. If you need to take a break, take a break. You don't have to binge watch wrestling everynight for 5 years. No one expects that. Unless thats what brings you joy. In that case, go for it! You won't get any judgment here. 

5. Remember its about having fun. You get out of the project what you put in. If you focus solely on tearing down candidates you feel forced to watch but don't enjoy or can't accept criteria or some particular argument is rubbing you the wrong way and you keep engaging in it, then you're going to fucking hate this project. If you focus on watching and talking about the things you like, you're going to have a great time. Have a great time! Wrestling is fun! 

6. Terry Funk for #1! 

I don't think folks should stick to what they know and like. If Okada is your guy, there's no point arguing about where he rates compared to other candidates. He's your guy. You know you're going to vote for him. Instead, you should be looking for guys you haven't seen much of. Maybe you haven't seen any Akira Maeda, so you check out a few of his more acclaimed matches. Maybe they do nothing for you, and you move on, or perhaps they get you more into UWF and RINGS and you wind having a few more shoot style guys to round out your list. Maybe you like his New Japan stuff and that leads you down a rabbit hole of Fujinami and Choshu matches. The worst thing you can do is say I hate old school wrestling so I'm not gonna watch any of that. You won't fill every gap. That's true. When the results came out last time, I realized I hadn't seen any of the 50s workers, which sent me down a huge rabbit hole. These days I'm interested in 00s indy workers, something that never appealed to me before. You should be trying to broaden your wrestling viewing with a project like this. It's a time to try new things and discover new workers. I don't think people should worry about the results or making a case for anyone. They should be trying to find new favorite workers. 

[Grimmas]

1 hour ago, ohtani's jacket said:

They should be trying to find new favorite workers. 

This is the point and crux of the project!!!

[elliott]

6 hours ago, ohtani's jacket said:

I don't think folks should stick to what they know and like. If Okada is your guy, there's no point arguing about where he rates compared to other candidates. He's your guy. You know you're going to vote for him. Instead, you should be looking for guys you haven't seen much of. Maybe you haven't seen any Akira Maeda, so you check out a few of his more acclaimed matches. Maybe they do nothing for you, and you move on, or perhaps they get you more into UWF and RINGS and you wind having a few more shoot style guys to round out your list. Maybe you like his New Japan stuff and that leads you down a rabbit hole of Fujinami and Choshu matches. The worst thing you can do is say I hate old school wrestling so I'm not gonna watch any of that. You won't fill every gap. That's true. When the results came out last time, I realized I hadn't seen any of the 50s workers, which sent me down a huge rabbit hole. These days I'm interested in 00s indy workers, something that never appealed to me before. You should be trying to broaden your wrestling viewing with a project like this. It's a time to try new things and discover new workers. I don't think people should worry about the results or making a case for anyone. They should be trying to find new favorite workers. 

 

I absolutely agree that people should be trying to find new favorite workers. As grimmas said, that's the real point. Perhaps I should clarify because I definitely don't mean to suggest people should only watch things they are familiar with and know they like.  I mean to be realistic when it comes to "closing gaps." I've been watching 70s Japanese wrestling since the late 90s? and I haven't seen every single match from everybody. That's what I mean. "Filling your gaps" doesn't necessarily mean watching every last piece of footage from a wrestler or era. That's an unreasonable goal. No one can watch all of everything. That's not the expectation. 

I also mean exactly the other thing. If you give Lou Thesz a chance and watch some matches and don't like it, I don't think anyone should feel "forced" or excluded if they decide watching old Lou Thesz matches isn't for them. In addition to no one can watch all of everything, no one is going to like everything. 

But definitely seek out new wrestlers. We haven't even started yet and in the last week I wanted to watch some old turn of the century fav, Chikayo Nagashima and after watching a few matches and digging the hell out of her it led me down a rabbit hole and now I'm trying to find NEO and Jd' matches and I'm super excited about watching The Bloody and Yoshiko Tamura because I never gave them a real look back in the $20 per VHS tape days. 

As I was saying, you get out of the project what you get into it. If you spend the time engaging in positive arguments and seeking out new stuff you like, you'll have an enjoyable experience. If you focus on stuff you hate, you'll hate it. If I spend the next 5 years talking about how annoying I think Toshiaki Kawada is or forcing myself to watch modern NJPW that I hate just because I'm "supposed" to like it, I'm going to hate the project. If I spend my time watching 00s Jd' or 90s Puerto Rico or the French stuff, I'm going to enjoy my time a lot more. Now, perhaps things will change and I'll see something and it'll make alllll of the modern NJPW click and I'll want to watch that. But in the meantime, there are plenty of rabbit holes I can go down to discover new wrestlers that are exciting to me and not a chore to watch. I'm 36 now. I'm not spending my hobby time on stuff I hate when there's plenty of stuff I love.

[dkookypunk43]

Yeah I'm not trying to spend time on stuff I hate or anything. If I hate something or dislike it then I don't watch that particular match again. I don't hold one match against a wrestler. One guy doing Generator that I went through a roller coaster with is Baba for instance. I enjoyed some of his matches against more dynamic opponents like Destroyer or Fritz and disliked some others but never gave up on him. I think Baba is a unique wrestler. Will he make my 100? Possibly but I have to do more evaluation. I'm excited to watch the french stuff like legit looking forward to seeking that out.

 

 

[elliott]

I will spend way too much time engaging in pro-Baba arguments and end up the high vote on him. That's like guaranteed to happen hahaha. 

[Reel]

Decided to quit lurking here because it seems like Alan4L's mid-point GWE and the 5 year anniversary of the 2016 lists have jump started the 2026 project.

I have such a fondness for the 2016 project and have been looking forward to turning in a ballot since I missed out on the process last time. I do think that something has been missing from the discussion though, at least in the way I view a project like this. For the individual, it is an opportunity to find new wrestlers, re-evaluate old wrestlers, and a way to foster discussion. But, I think the real important thing that comes out of a poll like this is 1) the list itself, which at the very least serves as a marker as what wrestlers the people who watch the most wrestling think are the best and 2) the podcasts, threads, and posts that are a product of the process. When BFI does their top 250, I'm sure the critics do it for themselves, but the most important thing that comes out of that is that it creates a sort of definitive guide to film.

I think the most effective version of something like this generates a series of reference materials for people to look back on. Currently, and I don't see this becoming any easier, there is just so much wrestling available, and for a lot of people, I'm sure it's a struggle to know where to begin.  But, if there were 100+ threads that contained a brief reason why someone thinks they're potentially one of the 100 best wrestlers ever and a few examples as to why, you would get close to the sort of thing I'm talking about. That's why i'm hesitant to advocate for a discord or slack, they just seem a bit more ephemeral, a bit more harder to access, whereas a message board thread, as outmoded as it may seem, is going to show up in a google search and seems like something that has more staying power, even if turns into some sort of archived stasis like the old smarks choice board. 

I don't know Grimmas, so I can't bully him into doing a zine like others in the thread, but I do think the ultimate success of something like this, aside from the personal enjoyment of discussing and contextualizing wrestling, is that something comes out of it that stands as a marker, I think the 2016 project started getting there, but I think that a lot of the best discussion and defenses are either mired in threads about BIGLAV, Great Match Theory, etc. or on podcasts that exists almost entirely on soundcloud at this point. 

[concrete1992]

1 hour ago, Reel said:

Decided to quit lurking here because it seems like Alan4L's mid-point GWE and the 5 year anniversary of the 2016 lists have jump started the 2026 project.

I have such a fondness for the 2016 project and have been looking forward to turning in a ballot since I missed out on the process last time. I do think that something has been missing from the discussion though, at least in the way I view a project like this. For the individual, it is an opportunity to find new wrestlers, re-evaluate old wrestlers, and a way to foster discussion. But, I think the real important thing that comes out of a poll like this is 1) the list itself, which at the very least serves as a marker as what wrestlers the people who watch the most wrestling think are the best and 2) the podcasts, threads, and posts that are a product of the process. When BFI does their top 250, I'm sure the critics do it for themselves, but the most important thing that comes out of that is that it creates a sort of definitive guide to film.

I think the most effective version of something like this generates a series of reference materials for people to look back on. Currently, and I don't see this becoming any easier, there is just so much wrestling available, and for a lot of people, I'm sure it's a struggle to know where to begin.  But, if there were 100+ threads that contained a brief reason why someone thinks they're potentially one of the 100 best wrestlers ever and a few examples as to why, you would get close to the sort of thing I'm talking about. That's why i'm hesitant to advocate for a discord or slack, they just seem a bit more ephemeral, a bit more harder to access, whereas a message board thread, as outmoded as it may seem, is going to show up in a google search and seems like something that has more staying power, even if turns into some sort of archived stasis like the old smarks choice board. 

I don't know Grimmas, so I can't bully him into doing a zine like others in the thread, but I do think the ultimate success of something like this, aside from the personal enjoyment of discussing and contextualizing wrestling, is that something comes out of it that stands as a marker, I think the 2016 project started getting there, but I think that a lot of the best discussion and defenses are either mired in threads about BIGLAV, Great Match Theory, etc. or on podcasts that exists almost entirely on soundcloud at this point. 

I think 2 is something I agree with and I know a lot of folks not here agree with. I still think there were a lot of great discussions in the wrestler threads but agree that these weird, insular topics that feel more like bits in 2021 than actual arguments, sucked a bit of air out of the room/had better topics folded into them.

While, I actually don't know if Grimmas will make some sort of Zine but I think something I want to do is try and pump more out of this GWE and encourage people to do the same. I want MORE podcasts, MORE blog posts, MORE oddball projects that all come back to GWE. Maybe on podcast feeds that are at all searchable or don't feel like wholesale podcast series are only found through forum links.

[Grimmas]

I do love these last two posts and the more coming out of this project the better. Any particular ideas would be wonderful to hear, but there is a LOT planned. That podcast launch will reveal all that, coming to you WrestleMania week. 

[concrete1992]

The thing is, I'm looking for less planned stuff if that makes sense. I want folks that are already doing great writing, great podcasts, or great YouTube channels to want to write, talk, or produce pieces with the goal of pushing cases or discussing processes, or whatever.

[Grimmas]

29 minutes ago, concrete1992 said:

The thing is, I'm looking for less planned stuff if that makes sense. I want folks that are already doing great writing, great podcasts, or great YouTube channels to want to write, talk, or produce pieces with the goal of pushing cases or discussing processes, or whatever.

Exactly yeah, and I'll be reaching out to those people and have.

[The Man in Blak]

On 2/25/2021 at 8:36 AM, Loss said:

I'm all for defining criteria out of the gate. I also think it's important to add that objective/subjective debates are a waste of time. If someone states an opinion, saying, "Yes, but that's your opinion" adds nothing. Everyone understands that opinions aren't facts. No reason to point it out.

I half-agree with this. Thumbs up for ditching subjective/objective divides, thumbs down for defining strict criteria for evaluation.

What’s tricky is that some of the best discussions from GWE were actually the ones where people articulated and defended their criteria at length. For all of the angst surrounding GMT and BIGLAV, I actually think the discussions in those threads were the most useful in helping me form my own criteria.

Those discussions became adversarial when they became pitched as truth vs. opinion, as though people that didn’t subscribe to a particular set of criteria were ignorant fools that were ruining the vote. *That* is what soured so much of the process, especially at the end when it came to discussion of the results.

My suggestion wouldn’t be to limit the vote to people that participate in the threads (or discord, whatever), but to take cross-sections of the voting data based on simple, measurable things: have a result set for all votes, a result set of people who posted in the forum/discord, a result set of people who posted and nominated a wrestler, etc. It’s an idea that came up a little too late (after the results, IIRC) for 2016, but it seems feasible for 2026 if we can plan ahead for it.

[Grimmas]

8 hours ago, The Man in Blak said:

My suggestion wouldn’t be to limit the vote to people that participate in the threads (or discord, whatever), but to take cross-sections of the voting data based on simple, measurable things: have a result set for all votes, a result set of people who posted in the forum/discord, a result set of people who posted and nominated a wrestler, etc. It’s an idea that came up a little too late (after the results, IIRC) for 2016, but it seems feasible for 2026 if we can plan ahead for it.

Adding a question about where you participated in the project to the voting is a very easy thing to do. Then I could list out here is the top whatever for people who participated here. That will be done.