2026 Ideas

[El-P]

58 minutes ago, Superstar Sleeze said:

2. A couple people coming on here making some bold ass claims that they prefer great pro wrestling with shitty builds to awesome promos/builds with shitty matches. If that was the case, everyone would be huge AJ Styles fans and huge Sheamus fans and yet here we are and nobody wants to watch TNA or recent WWE! :p I do believe you, El-P because you are a champion and a glutton for punishment.

I'm watching way more stuff that I mostly like a lot these days. But yeah, 9 years of TNA, uh !

58 minutes ago, Superstar Sleeze said:

Certain characters are apparent the minute you watch them Choshu, Fujiwara, Kobashi and Hashimoto. They exude charisma out of every pore. Once you have seen them once, you feel like you have known them your whole life. Fujiwara is a great example for me. Never watched a Fujiwara match before 2016. I watched one and I was hooked. I'll give you the opposite examples Misawa and Fujinami. Misawa I totally get now. At first, it is non-obvious who is Misawa? As you watch more, you understand he is Michael Jordan. When the chips are down, you know he is going to pull through and his extended comeback is the stuff of legend. I will use Fujinami in a different context. I still dont know who Fujinami is. That is one of my key goals is to understand Fujinami. 

It took me some time to get Choshu. I had my reasons. Then it clicked and I became a big fan. Misawa, not exactly the same, but he's obviously not a guy that would totally click from the very first time either to someone accustomed to US wrestling (Choshu neither BTW). Fujinami is a great fucking worker, that's who he is.  Well, that is, until he gets hurt in about 90 and then he's a former great fucking worker who's had many flashes of greatness in an ocean of dull matches for decades. 

As far as being more a fan of "por-wrestling matches" than pro-wrestling, to me it goes down to the fact that pro-wrestling is 90% pro-wrestling matches. Which is why back in the days, you'd buy some tapes with some so-called great matches from guys you haven't seen before from these promotions that you don't know anything about, totally out of context. And most of the time, you'd get blown away. So yeah. Although I do contradict myself when I say I enjoy watching IMPACT despite the fact I know there are much better workers and matches in WWE, because one is fun to watch to me as a pro-wrestling TV show and the other is not. so, there...

[Matt D]

14 minutes ago, Phil Schneider said:

If I do this, I am going to have 6-10 French Catch guys in the mix, feels like people should watch this stuff because we have plenty of newly discovered great wrestlers who are absolutely peers to guys like Flair, Kobashi, Santo etc

I can see 3-5 but I’m biased and they’ll be limited on how high I can actually put them. We do have the footage-over-time and “different scenarios” for guys like Delaporte and Bollet and Corn. 

On the other hand, if you are someone who feels like you can rank a wrestler high based on only 2-4 performances, your list could have 30 of these guys easily. 

[ohtani's jacket]

5 hours ago, Quentin said:

Glanced through this thread and saw some names I’ll make sure to remember but for the people who have made their way through the French stuff, who are the people to keep an eye on as potential inclusions for ballots? The little bit I’ve seen I’ve loved but I’m still having trouble having an approach on who to tackle first.

The best pure wrestlers are Leduc, Drapp and Jacky Corn, and the best showmen are Delaporte, Inca Peruano, Jack de Lasartesse, and Liano Pellacani.

Le Petit Prince should absolutely be on the list and is a contender for the greatest junior of all-time. Other top wrestlers include Modesto Aledo, Jean Corne, Rene Gerber, Michel Saulnier, Al Araujo, Ami Sola, Albert Sanniez, Georges Cohen, and Isha Israel.

[El Boricua]

All this talk about considering promos and adding to matches by being a second at ringside has me excited about Invader 1 and Chicky Starr rising up the rankings. 

[ohtani's jacket]

1 hour ago, Superstar Sleeze said:

I will say this I think a very important aspect of watching matches is to understand a wrestler's character. In America, the character is a combination of promos/in-ring. What is sad in post-2001 America is that those two things dont always align. I think it is just as equally as important in Japan. Certain characters are apparent the minute you watch them Choshu, Fujiwara, Kobashi and Hashimoto. They exude charisma out of every pore. Once you have seen them once, you feel like you have known them your whole life. Fujiwara is a great example for me. Never watched a Fujiwara match before 2016. I watched one and I was hooked. I'll give you the opposite examples Misawa and Fujinami. Misawa I totally get now. At first, it is non-obvious who is Misawa? As you watch more, you understand he is Michael Jordan. When the chips are down, you know he is going to pull through and his extended comeback is the stuff of legend. I will use Fujinami in a different context. I still dont know who Fujinami is. That is one of my key goals is to understand Fujinami. 

Fujinami is like one of those classic sports anime characters that will stop at nothing to reach their dream. As a rookie valet, he was obsessed with Inoki to the point where Inoki would joke that Fujinami knew more about him than his wife did. When he came back from abroad, he instantly rose to the number three star behind Inoki and Sakaguchi. He was young, handsome, had a  good body, did flashy moves but was also grounded in Gotch's technique. He was a truly impressive wrestler in his youth. He was not only a stylish junior, he worked strong style, he could brawl, fight, bleed, you name it. What makes the Fujinami vs. Choshu feud so great is that even though Choshu is the rebel who's hellbent on tearing down the system, and Fujinami comes across as Inoki's lapdog, or what have you, Fujinami shows some balls by using Choshu's finisher, which was considered rule-breaking at the time. You also have the narrative of his title matches against Inoki from the 80s, and the fact that NJPW probably would have collapsed if he'd jumped ship along with everyone else. He won the Tokyo Sports MVP in '85 for that very reason. The biggest criticism I could make of him is that he changed very little about his persona or even his wrestling style from the moment he debut until whenever his most recent bout was. He has some fun post-prime performances in the WAR feud and the classic MUGA bout, but he didn't adapt quite the same as guys like Jumbo, Mutoh or Kobashi. 

[elliott]

55 minutes ago, El Boricua said:

All this talk about considering promos and adding to matches by being a second at ringside has me excited about Invader 1 and Chicky Starr rising up the rankings. 

Invader 1 I see as like a top 20 candidate. I'm not sure where Chicky will be, but I have him as a lock. 

[Matt D]

13 minutes ago, elliott said:

Invader 1 I see as like a top 20 candidate. I'm not sure where Chicky will be, but I have him as a lock. 

I see Invader 1 as a top 25 candidate for my list so that’s two.

[Dav'oh]

Just out of curiosity, as it won't effect my ratings: Only a small percentage of UK and European wrestlers made their way to America, did any of the French catch guys try their luck across the pond? Did many even cross the Channel? What was the average French 50s wrestler's "loop"?

[ohtani's jacket]

Aside from the obvious ones like Andre and Carpentier, the big bodybuilder types had runs in the USA -- Drapp, Duranton, Mortier and Voiney. I'm sure there are others I'm forgetting. From what I understand, most French workers worked in France, Spain, Germany, England and a few other countries like Belgium and Switzerland. I'm not sure how many of them made it to Japan. UK heavyweights worked countries like South Africa, Iraq, India, Pakistan, etc., but the French guys mostly struck to Europe. They regularly worked in the UK at least through the 60s to early 70s. One of the most famous UK matches we have on tape is actually Jacky Corn wrestling under his real name against Billy Howes. 

[Matt D]

One thing you have to understand about the French footage too is that you get a lot of guys who weren't French. Spaniards, Italians, Belgians, Peruvians, Brits, Canadians, Americans.

[JerryvonKramer]

I’ve been reflecting on the last GWE and thinking about whether I’ll take part this time. I think I might go the polar opposite way from doing a BIGLAV-style system and instead go with more egregiously personal list.

 

But also been reflecting on the importance and emphasis we gave to footage in 2016, given what some people have been saying about The Destroyer. There are cases in which we basically know everything guys can do but are missing a key chunk of their peak career due to footage. Two examples I’ll give are Wahoo McDaniel and Ivan Koloff. We know everything they can do and have seen enough of them to know what sorts of matches they would have had but don’t actually have those matches. I feel more fine about ranking guys based on a composite idea of what they could do.

 

I actually came to this thought after seeing Stan Hansen vs Yatsu from 1988 which recently popped up. I’ve seen tons of Hansen and tons of Yatsu. I know everything those two guys could do. Hansen and Yatsu had exactly the sort of match I expected them to have. If I’d never seen that match, my idea of what it would have been like could have easily substituted for actually seeing it. I hope this doesn’t sound too insane. I just wonder if, beyond a certain point, you don’t need any more footage. When you know a guy, their standard spots, their little tricks and so on, you know them.

 

I have also become more lukewarm about the idea of star ratings and Great Matches being a key and heavily weighted metric. If I do footage watching this time, my focus won’t be on matches but on contexts. 

[El-P]

8 hours ago, ohtani's jacket said:

He has some fun post-prime performances in the WAR feud and the classic MUGA bout, but he didn't adapt quite the same as guys like Jumbo, Mutoh or Kobashi. 

To me that was less an issue than the fact once is back was thrashed in 90 (or late 89), he wasn't the same anymore. To me he's almost at Yatsu level of going from out of this world great to "good" at best in a few months. Unlike Yatsu he had flashes in the right context (like you said, the WAR feud, mostly thanks to Tenryu), but damn, Fuji post-90 was nothing like Fuji pre-90 to me. A true and true 80's peak guy.

[Grimmas]

Look on your podcast feeds on Friday.

[Matt D]

8 hours ago, JerryvonKramer said:

But also been reflecting on the importance and emphasis we gave to footage in 2016,

To me, there are two elements to footage as it pertains to people towards the top of your list:

The first is your own level of confidence. For instance, I tend to rank people on two things: 1) their theory/instinct/understanding of pro wrestling and 2) their ability to put this into practice/create purposeful success with it. In order to understand this, I'd like to see them in multiple situations over time and against multiple opponents in multiple situations if possible. I'd point here to my case for Bock post which sums up what I'm looking for in order to understand someone enough to be at the top of my list. I understand that people will have different criteria and different goals than me, though, so how much footage you need to rank will vary based on what you value and what you're looking for. I will say this about a specific example since you invoked him. I watched a Yatsu match from 89 vs Abby/Tiger Jeet Singh the other night and he worked it completely different than I've seen him work any other match in 88/89, much more vulnerable, selling bigger, fighting back less, getting over the threat of his opponents and building things up for Jumbo's big entrance. It was an element of earnest (as opposed to scrapping) versatility that I honestly didn't know 89 Yatsu was capable of (or willing to tap into even if the match called for it) until i saw the match and it was very effective within the match. That's the sort of thing which might have him land one spot higher on my list. Not anything monumental but just something that broadens my understanding of him as a total pro wrestler.

The second importance of footage is in your ability to back up what you're saying vs rep alone. I'd point to Patterson vs Stevens here. We probably have a few more Patterson matches than Stevens matches, but not a ton, but you can far more clearly see what made Patterson great in those matches than what made Stevens great. I recently (finally!) found a few Stevens performances I sort of liked (in 80, teaming with Snuka in JCP), but it's certainly not on the level that Patterson is or that Stevens' rep has him. Whatever memory Dave or Flair have of Stevens, we don't have the performances. So you can rank Patterson well off of his performances but you can't easily back up, in a communal/social sense, ranking Stevens high on footage alone.

[JerryvonKramer]

Yeah I agree with much of that. I am not saying footage doesn’t matter period: in the case of Stevens we have virtually nothing and the goods aren’t there in what we do have. But how much more Wahoo do you really need to see to understand what he was about? Does anyone doubt that Wahoo vs Johnny Valentine was great even if we never see more than the ten minute clip?

We don’t have enough to go on to rank Johnny Valentine but we’ve got enough Wahoo if that makes any sense.

[Grimmas]

10 minutes ago, JerryvonKramer said:

Yeah I agree with much of that. I am not saying footage doesn’t matter period: in the case of Stevens we have virtually nothing and the goods aren’t there in what we do have. But how much more Wahoo do you really need to see to understand what he was about? Does anyone doubt that Wahoo vs Johnny Valentine was great even if we never see more than the ten minute clip?

We don’t have enough to go on to rank Johnny Valentine but we’ve got enough Wahoo if that makes any sense.

I am not comfortable ranking someone using a series of matches I have never seen and assuming they are great.

[Matt D]

10 minutes ago, JerryvonKramer said:

Yeah I agree with much of that. I am not saying footage doesn’t matter period: in the case of Stevens we have virtually nothing and the goods aren’t there in what we do have. But how much more Wahoo do you really need to see to understand what he was about? Does anyone doubt that Wahoo vs Johnny Valentine was great even if we never see more than the ten minute clip?

We don’t have enough to go on to rank Johnny Valentine but we’ve got enough Wahoo if that makes any sense.

For me, it’s more that I have enough to rank Wahoo 60 but not enough to rank him 20. That sort of thing. 

[El-P]

One paradoxal thing that will play against most current workers (apart from the WWE guys because it's being watched by default by most) is that there is actually too much footage. For instance there are so many great, great Tomohiro Ishii matches in the last ten years that it makes it just daunting to ever get into this guy's case. Only watching the last 4 or 5 G1 Climax, this guy should be in everyone's Top 20 already or something. But since he doesn't belong into the old "canon" because he's a current talent and since there's "too much" stuff, all that will play against him in the end I believe. Whereas anyone can watch the handful of Lou Thesz matches available and go "Yeah, he was awesome".

[Grimmas]

Just now, El-P said:

One reason that will play against most current workers (apart from the WWE guys because it's being watched by default by most) is that there is actually too much footage. For instance there are so many great, great Tomohiro Ishii matches in the last ten years that it makes it just daunting to ever get into this guy's case. Only watching the last 4 or 5 G1 climax, this guy should be in everyone's Top 20 already or something. But since he doesn't belong into the old "canon" because he's a current talent and since there's "too much" stuff, all that will play against him in the end I believe. Whereas anyone can watch the handful of Lou Thesz matches available and go "Yeah, he was awesome".

I watched prime Ishii, he's not on my radar at all. He's great, but there are more than 100 greater easily for me.

[El-P]

I'm not sure I can think of a whole lot that are better (Last year's G1 ? Fuck, Ishii was like all-time great performances ever every time). He's just that great to me. One of the guys that made me reconsider a lot of stuff that I thought I knew in the last few years and made my tastes evolve.

But hey, I know I'm probably be the high vote on many, many current (last 10-15, counting from 2026) workers.

[Grimmas]

1 minute ago, El-P said:

I'm not sure I can think of a whole lot that are better (Last year's G1 ? Fuck, Ishii was like all-time great performances ever every time). He's just that great to me. One of the guys that made me reconsider a lot of stuff that I thought I knew in the last few years and made my tastes evolve.

But hey, I know I'm probably be the high vote on many, many current (last 10-15, counting from 2026) workers.

Yeah this is more of a taste thing, I could see the argument for sure.

[JerryvonKramer]

2 hours ago, Grimmas said:

I am not comfortable ranking someone using a series of matches I have never seen and assuming they are great.

I’m not saying one would rank Wahoo based on those matches, I’m saying that we’ve all seen enough Wahoo not to doubt the rep of those matches.

 

Whereas I think most of us doubt the Ray Stevens rep.

[JerryvonKramer]

Looking over the 2016 list, I’m sad Jumbo finished outside the top 10. I might devote my efforts this time to influencing younger voters on the awesomeness of Jumbo: arguably the only worker to spend the entirety of his career in elite tier and as a top worker within his company. 

[Grimmas]

36 minutes ago, JerryvonKramer said:

Looking over the 2016 list, I’m sad Jumbo finished outside the top 10. I might devote my efforts this time to influencing younger voters on the awesomeness of Jumbo: arguably the only worker to spend the entirety of his career in elite tier and as a top worker within his company. 

Akira Hokuto says hello.

[Shrike02]

Jumbo is my default #1. I can't see him dropping outside my top five between now and 2026.