El-P Posted March 10, 2021 Report Share Posted March 10, 2021 4 minutes ago, NintendoLogic said: He defended it against Tiger Mask Misawa in Japan. And it wasn't very good. Steamboat really is all about matches. Apart from the throat thrashing angle in WWF, I can't even think of one memorable angle he was part of. Even as a character he was not very good. Karate guy in WWF was kinda lame, Family Man champ with his wife and kid at ringside in NWA was really, really lame, especially when you go against Flair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Log Posted March 10, 2021 Report Share Posted March 10, 2021 1 minute ago, Mad Dog said: I don't remember if the Ron Simmons match was for the title or not. I looked at results and it looks like he made defenses against Jack Victory and Mike Rotunda at house shows. Very deserving challengers, lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted March 10, 2021 Report Share Posted March 10, 2021 4 minutes ago, El-P said: And it wasn't very good. Steamboat really is all about matches. Apart from the throat thrashing angle in WWF, I can't even think of one memorable angle he was part of. Even as a character he was not very good. Karate guy in WWF was kinda lame, Family Man champ with his wife and kid at ringside in NWA was really, really lame, especially when you go against Flair. He was involved in some enjoyable stuff in early 80s Mid-Atlantic. Wahoo and him fucking with Piper was always good. I thought the stuff with Slaughter and Kernodle was a good angle as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted March 10, 2021 Report Share Posted March 10, 2021 On 3/9/2021 at 10:24 AM, Kadaveri said: It's not insane when the invading monster shooter had previously walked out on the company angrily complaining about having to lose matches, later held up another company's world title and was publicly in contact with UFC about a comeback. Pretty sensible really that Vince wanted assurances Brock would do business before putting him over his Top Guy. He left WWE the first time because he hated the travel. He "held up" the IWGP title the same way Jeff Jarrett "held up" the WWF in 1999. He walked out when they tried to carny him out of the belt without paying him the money he was owed. And really, it makes no sense to sign a guy to a multimullion-dollar deal if you're that afraid of him doing business, at least if you have any interest in getting your money's worth. Not to mention the apparent double-cross after the match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Posted March 10, 2021 Report Share Posted March 10, 2021 2 hours ago, Log said: Piggybacking off the Steamboat/Savage discussion... Was Steamboat's reign the most disappointing to come after a match that's considered a classic? I'm sure there are instances where someone won a title in a classic match, but had to forfeit because of injuries or something like that. But, I can't recall a single match (let alone a great match) from his reign, just when he lost it to HTM. Bryan/Cena? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted March 10, 2021 Report Share Posted March 10, 2021 35 minutes ago, Al said: Bryan/Cena? Bryan's second reign certainly qualifies. He went straight from winning the title to a godawful feud with Kane and was being set up to be the sacrificial lamb for Brock at Summerslam before being forced to vacate. There's a theory I'm increasingly partial to that WM30 was WWE's series finale and everything afterward has been unauthorized fanfiction. In addition to the culmination of Bryan's chase (the last WWE storyline with a satisfying payoff), you have the Hogan/Austin/Rock segment, the ending of the streak, and the prodigal sons Jake and Warrior returning to the fold. Everything WWE has done since then has felt like anticlimax. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarpetCrawler Posted March 10, 2021 Report Share Posted March 10, 2021 6 hours ago, Mad Dog said: I honestly don't get the love Jesse gets. He can be really good and I enjoy his commentary. But holy shit does that guy just fucking steamroll big moments by not shutting his fucking mouth. I just watched Sting winning the TV Title and Michael Hayes is pissed on commentary but he also does that well getting out of the way and giving Sting the moment. I mean, to be real, it's because he's a funny dick and people love funny dicks. He can be very good when he's actually On (which tends to be with Gorilla Monsoon) but when he's paired with Vince it's the EXACT same style of bullshit bickering that has nothing to do with the match at hand that made people so mad when Renee and Corey did it on RAW and PPVs and I refuse to hear arguments to the contrary. I think the lack of footage has been a mega benefit to Jesse because he tends to be on much better behavior (with some exceptions because Vince post-like... 1986-ish or so on commentary sucks so much ass) on PPVs and Saturday Night's Main Event than he is on the weekly TVs, where he is incredibly boring. I say all this with lots of love in my heart for Jesse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricky Jackson Posted March 10, 2021 Report Share Posted March 10, 2021 2 hours ago, NintendoLogic said: Bryan's second reign certainly qualifies. He went straight from winning the title to a godawful feud with Kane and was being set up to be the sacrificial lamb for Brock at Summerslam before being forced to vacate. There's a theory I'm increasingly partial to that WM30 was WWE's series finale and everything afterward has been unauthorized fanfiction. In addition to the culmination of Bryan's chase (the last WWE storyline with a satisfying payoff), you have the Hogan/Austin/Rock segment, the ending of the streak, and the prodigal sons Jake and Warrior returning to the fold. Everything WWE has done since then has felt like anticlimax. In retrospect, that sounds about right. Other than NXT, most of mid-2014 (beginning with Rollins turning on the Shield) to present has been a slow slide to the worst of WCW/TNA levels imo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted March 10, 2021 Report Share Posted March 10, 2021 5 hours ago, NintendoLogic said: Bryan's second reign certainly qualifies. He went straight from winning the title to a godawful feud with Kane and was being set up to be the sacrificial lamb for Brock at Summerslam before being forced to vacate. There's a theory I'm increasingly partial to that WM30 was WWE's series finale and everything afterward has been unauthorized fanfiction. In addition to the culmination of Bryan's chase (the last WWE storyline with a satisfying payoff), you have the Hogan/Austin/Rock segment, the ending of the streak, and the prodigal sons Jake and Warrior returning to the fold. Everything WWE has done since then has felt like anticlimax. If history continues, WWE will do something awesome for the hardcore fans at WM 40, just like they did at 10, 20, and 30. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strummer Posted March 10, 2021 Report Share Posted March 10, 2021 Which seemed more unlikely at the time? I can remember Benoit winning was basically leaked in late 03 (without Dave outright saying it). I still think people thought wwe would get cold feet before hand but they didn't. Of course Bryan winning was forced upon them but it still had a "see it to believe it" vibe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cactus Posted March 11, 2021 Report Share Posted March 11, 2021 Whilst it's not completely ruined by it's ending, the Kensuke vs Nagata Dome match from Wrestling World 2004 might of been one of my favourite matches if it's finish didn't come out of nowhere. For those who haven't seen it, it's a hate filled brawl that felt like a gritty lucha bloodbath with the strikes you can come to expect out of NJPW. Both men bleeds buckets and just when you think things are going to start to build up to the finish, Nagata locks on a hold and keeps Kensuke down for literal minutes before he taps out. Super flat ending. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted March 14, 2021 Report Share Posted March 14, 2021 I call bullshit on Steamboat being a matches guy. He was awesome in his face roles in all of his famous feuds. The weak periods where he's not producing strong feuds or strong matches are because of bad booking. Steamboat didn't do anything after the Savage feud is true, but it's not because Steamboat couldn't carry a feud after Savage, it's because they didn't give him anything to do. He had a likeable, 80s babyface image. It was a simpler time, and perhaps an easier time to be a babyface, but he was likeable. His acting might have been wooden at times, and he was better at in-ring theatrics than cutting a promo. If he was a straight matches guy, he could have had decent matches in Japan or worked better programs against house show opponents. Personally, I think his best work is his 90s WCW run. His Dangerous Alliance era work is legendary to me. If Arn is the MVP of the heel side then Steamboat is the MVP of the babyface side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted March 14, 2021 Report Share Posted March 14, 2021 42 minutes ago, ohtani's jacket said: I call bullshit on Steamboat being a matches guy. He was awesome in his face roles in all of his famous feuds. The Ric Flair feud ? Come on now. He was the uncoolest guy ever with his wife and baby dressed as a dragon. Fucking hell. 42 minutes ago, ohtani's jacket said: Personally, I think his best work is his 90s WCW run. His Dangerous Alliance era work is legendary to me. If Arn is the MVP of the heel side then Steamboat is the MVP of the babyface side. Agreed (although my babyface MVP would be Dustin). But I for one can't remember any promo nor angle, just a bunch of great matches. I don't see how this is even a negative either, I made the remark in a purely descriptive way. And I do agree he was never booked in many super memorable angles... maybe part of it because he did not need to. Because he could have great matches. That's basically why Flair booked him to have his redux feud with in 94. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteF3 Posted March 14, 2021 Report Share Posted March 14, 2021 Even if the bulk of it was carried by Sarge, Steamboat was still the main foil in the Road to Greensboro/Final Conflict angle, which was a masterpiece of booking and build in addition to a killer match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricky Jackson Posted March 14, 2021 Report Share Posted March 14, 2021 I know it happened during a time a lot of fans have difficulty caring about, but Steamboat's most successful and, besides Savage, most memorable angles happened in the late-70s with Ric Flair in the Carolina's. Two were so popular that they were repeated numerous times later on: Flair getting his suit ripped off by Steamer, and Flair rubbing Steamer's face on the cement floor in the studio, leading to "bruises" on the face of a young star very popular with the ladies. Those angles helped draw huge houses in not only the Carolina's but also Toronto, probably the best sustained run of business Steamboat was ever part of. I think you can find footage of at least the face rubbing angle out there. Also, when I think of Steamboat in WWF I also think of his feuds with Muraco and, especially, Jake Roberts, which both started with memorable angles. Muraco and Fuji hung Steamer on TV in a pretty violent angle for WWF. More famously, Roberts gave Steamer a DDT on the concrete floor on SNME Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted March 14, 2021 Report Share Posted March 14, 2021 19 minutes ago, Ricky Jackson said: Also, when I think of Steamboat in WWF I also think of his feuds with Muraco and, especially, Jake Roberts, which both started with memorable angles. Muraco and Fuji hung Steamer on TV in a pretty violent angle for WWF. More famously, Roberts gave Steamer a DDT on the concrete floor on SNME But in both those cases, no one remembers the matches. I mean, I admit I'm not the biggest 80's WWF fan and my favorite Steamboat period is also 90's WCW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted March 14, 2021 Report Share Posted March 14, 2021 I was talking to someone about this last night. Lots of great wrestlers have one other wrestler who stands out where for whatever reason everything just never clicked and it was disappointing compared to how it looked on paper. For Steamboat, that was Muraco. For Windham, that was Larry Zbyszko. For Bret, that was Rick Martel. For Austin, that was Undertaker. There are probably lots of other examples. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricky Jackson Posted March 14, 2021 Report Share Posted March 14, 2021 I would give Steamboat's 11/25/85 MSG match vs Muraco a shot if you haven't before. Really good bloody brawl imo. I also remember digging the 2/17/86 "martial arts" match between the two, also at MSG, although I'm in the minority with that one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted March 14, 2021 Report Share Posted March 14, 2021 24 minutes ago, Loss said: For Bret, that was Rick Martel. Wouldn't it be fair to say it was actually Micheals ? That would make a fun game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted March 14, 2021 Report Share Posted March 14, 2021 Much of the time, yes, although some Bret-Shawn matches did deliver. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted March 14, 2021 Report Share Posted March 14, 2021 Jumbo / Hansen. Two of the best ever. In the same context. Never clicked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Schneider Posted March 14, 2021 Report Share Posted March 14, 2021 I mean Muraco just sucked, he was a cool character, but I still haven't seen a great performance in the ring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Schneider Posted March 14, 2021 Report Share Posted March 14, 2021 It's only one match but Fujiwara vs. Kawada was terrible and both of those guys were all time greats Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted March 14, 2021 Report Share Posted March 14, 2021 7 hours ago, El-P said: The Ric Flair feud ? Come on now. He was the uncoolest guy ever with his wife and baby dressed as a dragon. Fucking hell. Agreed (although my babyface MVP would be Dustin). But I for one can't remember any promo nor angle, just a bunch of great matches. I don't see how this is even a negative either, I made the remark in a purely descriptive way. And I do agree he was never booked in many super memorable angles... maybe part of it because he did not need to. Because he could have great matches. That's basically why Flair booked him to have his redux feud with in 94. Steamboat was meant to be the polar opposite of Flair. The epitome of uncool. Why would you want cool babyface Steamboat vs. cool heel Flair? Steamboat did his talking in the ring. Steamboat in Chi-Town Rumble, c'mon! If Steamboat at his best isn't one of the all-time great babyfaces then who the frack is? Later on it got stupid with the fire-breathing and the dragon costumes, but Steamboat's WCW return as the mystery partner? There's a classic angle for you. I just watched a nice piece of business between Steamboat and Austin. Most of it was Austin talking trash, but Ricky gave him a decent slap then jumped into the ring and fired up the studio crowd. It's harder to play a likeable babyface than it is to play the cussing Steve Austin role. Steamboat wasn't a cool babyface. He certainly wasn't cool in this segment. However, it was effective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted March 14, 2021 Report Share Posted March 14, 2021 I was always a heel fan, so when the babyface is uncool, it's just a death spot for me to be in. 1 minute ago, ohtani's jacket said: Steamboat in Chi-Town Rumble, c'mon! If Steamboat at his best isn't one of the all-time great babyfaces then who the frack is? Of course he was, in the ring working. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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