Bix Posted September 9, 2007 Report Share Posted September 9, 2007 I've seen it off and on for years dating back to an article somewhere, but I can't recall what it was. Can anyone remember? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted September 9, 2007 Report Share Posted September 9, 2007 Isn't Tiger Mask retroactively credited with bringing high flying to every country? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indikator Posted September 9, 2007 Report Share Posted September 9, 2007 Wasn't Momota the first Japanese to do a suicida? Also, I wonder who was first doing the lucha style, Sayama or Gran Hamada. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted September 9, 2007 Author Report Share Posted September 9, 2007 Hamada was working extensively in Mexico before Sayama's pro debut. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted September 9, 2007 Report Share Posted September 9, 2007 I doubt the claim. It's just that lucha libre had such a long history before Tiger Mask that it doesn't seem possible. I think he probably unfairly gets the credit because when he started wrestling was when a lot of the luchadores of the 90s were kids and new to the whole lucha libre scene. They'll all talk about him because he was probably an early memory for them as far as wrestling so it makes people think that he brought high flying to Mexico. As far as high flying before Tiger Mask. There was Mil Mascaras, Gypsy Joe and El Santo doing dives and top rope splashes well before Tiger Mask showed up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted September 9, 2007 Author Report Share Posted September 9, 2007 I know it's not true. That's my whole point. Was it in a PWI Almanac or something and that's what caused people to repeat it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted September 10, 2007 Report Share Posted September 10, 2007 I think Mad Dog hit on it , Tiger Mask was the dude people watched on TV and thought "wow, this is pretty awesome, I want to do that". I guess it's up there with "Vince brought wrestling out of smoke-filled arenas" thing in terms of urban legends people just accept as true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KCook Posted September 10, 2007 Report Share Posted September 10, 2007 It's especially weird because if you watch the Tiger Mask vs. Mexico matches, he's not notably faster than guys like a younger Villano III. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordi Posted September 10, 2007 Report Share Posted September 10, 2007 This is more or less the truth: Sayama was sent to Mexico at the start of his career, after graduating from the New japan dojo, because of his size. He was taught the Mexican high-flying style, and brought that back to Japan. I'd guess that some sub-literate mouth breather read that somewhere, and got it all twisted around in his tiny malfunctioning half-empty head. That's likely where the talking point came from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted September 10, 2007 Report Share Posted September 10, 2007 This is one to ask Jose about (who may also be able to ask Sims about). I'm not sure if the stuff was in origin that Sayama brought flying to Lucha. More along the lines that he had some impact via his flying and whatnot. I seem to recall the support to it being given by pointing to how high Tiger finished in one or more "Greatest Wrestlers Ever" polls in Mexico, such as in the early 90s long after he'd wrestled there. It's possible that Dave read more into it than there was "there", or something got lost in translation. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted September 10, 2007 Author Report Share Posted September 10, 2007 This is one to ask Jose about (who may also be able to ask Sims about). I'm not sure if the stuff was in origin that Sayama brought flying to Lucha. More along the lines that he had some impact via his flying and whatnot. I seem to recall the support to it being given by pointing to how high Tiger finished in one or more "Greatest Wrestlers Ever" polls in Mexico, such as in the early 90s long after he'd wrestled there. It's possible that Dave read more into it than there was "there", or something got lost in translation. I'm 99% sure it's not a Meltzer talking point, as I believe he's talked about Sayama learning stuff from Lizmark and how Sayama's style was a fusion of Lucha Libre, British chain wrestling, and kickboxing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted September 10, 2007 Report Share Posted September 10, 2007 I still think it comes from someone reading too much into him being an influence for most of the WCW luchadores. They would've all be young kids for his first run as I said earlier. I used to get WCW Magazine and they'd do questions every month and I remember his name came up a lot with the luchadores. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomk Posted September 11, 2007 Report Share Posted September 11, 2007 Really I don't buy the WCW luchadors as being guys heavily influenced by Tiger Mask. Rey? Juve? Psychosis? Parka? Dandy? Calo? Damien? Cyclope? the Villanos? Maybe if you count Mr JL as a luchador. How kayfabe'd was WCW magazine? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted September 11, 2007 Report Share Posted September 11, 2007 It was about 50/50. If they were talking about shows it was kayfabed, any get to know you stuff was a shoot. The questions section in particular saw guys breaking character. I remember Rey was one that mentioned Tiger Mask. I think like Psicosis, Halloween and Juvy might've been others that had mentioned it. I don't have the magazines anymore so I can't look it up. Damn, should've kept those. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.L.L. Posted September 11, 2007 Report Share Posted September 11, 2007 Really I don't buy the WCW luchadors as being guys heavily influenced by Tiger Mask. Rey? Juve? Psychosis? Parka? Dandy? Calo? Damien? Cyclope? the Villanos? Maybe if you count Mr JL as a luchador. How kayfabe'd was WCW magazine? Keep in mind, there are a ton of American wrestlers who came up in the mid-late '90s, and continuing into this decade, who claim Shawn Michaels as a major influence, and maybe two or three of them actually wrestle like Michaels in any noticeable way. There's also comments from some of Flair's bigger fans about him "influencing a generation" of workers, despite the fact that he was working a style that was already dated in his prime, and that basically ended with him, even though he's never fully left the spotlight. I'd believe that Sayama "influenced" the WCW cruiserweights in a similar way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted September 11, 2007 Report Share Posted September 11, 2007 I'm 99% sure it's not a Meltzer talking point, as I believe he's talked about Sayama learning stuff from Lizmark and how Sayama's style was a fusion of Lucha Libre, British chain wrestling, and kickboxing. I actually think it *originally* was a Meltzer talking point, or something very close to it, or a morph from something he said. It's not something PWI or mark mag - they only would have gotten it from Dave... they simply weren't smart enough about puroresu to do otherwise. Like I said... I think it probably would be in a piece where Dave talked about Sayama finishing surprisingly high on a list in Mexico. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted October 29, 2007 Report Share Posted October 29, 2007 Here's an old Gong interview between Sayama and Mil Mascaras from Hisa's site. They talk a bit about the origins of flying in Mexico. Or Mil's take on it anyway: http://www.puroresu.com/articles/sayama-mascaras.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DGinnetty Posted October 29, 2007 Report Share Posted October 29, 2007 Here's an old Gong interview between Sayama and Mil Mascaras from Hisa's site. They talk a bit about the origins of flying in Mexico. Or Mil's take on it anyway: http://www.puroresu.com/articles/sayama-mascaras.html I was just about to mention that interview myself. I thought Sayama and Mascaras came off well, with Mil not trying to take credit for moves he used, instead mentioning who he borrowed them from. Dan Ginnetty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunning_grover Posted December 8, 2007 Report Share Posted December 8, 2007 There were already workers in Mexico using high flying moves in the 1930s. Chino Achiu is credited with the invention of the tope. Satoru Sayama obviously had made a great impact. And he was a very impressive performer in his prime. He was a man who revolutionized wrestling. But the thing is that the bar for high flying moves has been rased many times over the decades. And maybe Sayama raised that bar a little higher than almost anyone else ever did (and maybe he inspired more people than almost anyone else ever did), which I guess is where this talking of him bringing flying to Mexico comes from, but he definitely should not be credited with bringing flying to Mexico. By the way, I believe Matzura Matzuda was the first Japanese wrestler in Mexico in 1935 and credited with the invention of the dropkick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted August 16, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 16, 2008 Take a look at what I just found. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resident Evil Posted August 16, 2008 Report Share Posted August 16, 2008 I still think it comes from someone reading too much into him being an influence for most of the WCW luchadores. They would've all be young kids for his first run as I said earlier. I used to get WCW Magazine and they'd do questions every month and I remember his name came up a lot with the luchadores. I will second this. Tiger Mask is named as an influence for a lot of the WCW lucha wrestlers. I've seen Dynamite's name a good bit too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted August 16, 2008 Report Share Posted August 16, 2008 Oddly, hasn't Rey Misterio called Scott Steiner his biggest influence in the past? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resident Evil Posted August 16, 2008 Report Share Posted August 16, 2008 Oddly, hasn't Rey Misterio called Scott Steiner his biggest influence in the past? I may vaguely rememberhim saying something about Steiner. I wouldn't be surprised though since Steiner was one of the most aweinspiring wrestlers out there in his prime. I do remember Rey and I think he said this in WCW magazine once citing the creative Tiger Mask vs Dynamite Kid matches as being a humongous influence on him. IIRC, he has said in the past they're an inspiration for not only their moves but for their thoughtful creativity and imagination in putting a match together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted August 16, 2008 Report Share Posted August 16, 2008 Not that they weren't influential matches, but isn't Dynamite/Tiger kind of the expected default answer from lucha/cruiserweight/indy flippy guys? It's like asking a home run hitter who his influences are and getting the usual Babe Ruth/Hank Aaron answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Cooke Posted August 16, 2008 Report Share Posted August 16, 2008 The Steiner influence is clearly ONLY the rana. Steiner didn't do any other flying and Rey didn't do any other suplexes/throws. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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