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Race vs. Angle


Tim Cooke

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The early 80's matches against Baba weren't anywhere near their 70's stuff. I think the 12/9/75 match is too much of the Race boring mat work but it still ends up being a good match.

Having not seen them myself, was this really about Race's performance? Because it's not like the Baba of the early 80's was the Baba of the mid-70's. I guess that ties back to the "Race has never had a great match against a lesser opponent" part of the argument, which, to the best of my knowledge, is true. That said, that's always an argument I find spurious when putting down a wrestler, because most great matches tend to happen between great wrestlers. To the best of my knowledge, we don't have anything like Dynamite Kid carrying Tiger Mask, Fuerza carrying Octagon, or Kawada and Takada carrying Albright, or Cena carrying Khali to point to with Race. But I don't think that should be a huge knock against him....unless we unearth enough mediocre Harley matches against mediocre opponents to realize he couldn't rise to the occasion against inferior opponents....or, as the case may be, against very good opponents like Koko.

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Not trying to be condecending,

You are sometimes. Not trying to insult you, if I'd been around as long as you and seen all these discussions a thousand times I might get snooty too, but that is a side of you that comes out on occasion.

 

The World Class match from 82 against King Kong Bundy got some pimping for Race carrying Bundy but I didn't see the carry job personally.

Maybe not but I still haven't seen a good Bundy singles match except for the Lawler minute challenge. The strength of that match was more in the stipulation playing up to Bundy's gimmick and not because Lawler is a wrestling genius who squeezed a good match out of Bundy.
I watched that match just a few weeks ago, and remember it seeming to be a case where both guys brought their A-game. Personally I think Bundy was a little underrated by some, but regardless I don't think Harley could've had that match with a total broomstick.

 

 

As to the piledriver argument, I've seen Harley have jobbers kick out of his piledrivers in squash matches on at least two or three occasions. Not even really sell it afterwards, just kick out and go to the next spot. That's worth a raised eyebrow, back in the early 80s.

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I think I would look to the Von Erich matches as matches against limited workers and see what kind of matches he got out of them.

I kinda agree with this, but for different reasons. Namely, I think the Von Erichs - particularly Kerry - were underrated workers, but not world-beaters, either. Roughly on the same level as Koko, but higher profile. So a Race/KVE match would probably make for a nice comparison to Race/Koko.

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Yeah what Jingus said, the Harley throw away piledriver on the floor was a Harley spot. I remember when watching the Kirshner match thinking "hey he did that stupid piledriver on the floor spot again." Let me aritculate a little about how bad that spot was, and how it fits a little more into my general problems with Race.

 

You have King Harley working fourth from the top on a Boston house show against a JTTS like Kierchner, and trying to work his touring World Title match. Kirchner is treated here like the local top babyface who has been waiting his entire career to get a shot at the legendary Harley Race, instead of like a lower card guy with only slightly more wins then losses. So about four minutes into the match Race takes him outside and piledrives him on the floor. Now this is a move that traditionally is used in 80's wrestling to put a guy out for a couple of months, build to a huge return, or write someone out of a territory. Here Race is throwing it out in the early minutes of an undercard match, not only that Race rolls back into the ring. Which mean Kirchner has to get back into the ring to beat a ten count, which means he basically has to no-sell the move. Then moments later you have Kirchner getting two counts with bodyslams, or you have Race taking giant theatrical bumps for the Corps shitty punches. Piledriver on the floor= throwaway, bodyslam=dramtic two count. Watching that match I think "Man Race has some cool stuff (piledriver, double underhook suplex, crazy back bump to the floor), but what the fuck is supposed to be going on in this match?" It is very similar to my thoughts on most Kurt Angle matches (Why is Shane McMahon throwing Suplexes on an Olympian? Does everyone know dozens of reversals of the ankle lock?)

 

This isn't an isolate bad Harley performance, hell this was probably the best match of Corporal Kirchners career, this was a match which pretty much encapsulated what he does very badly.

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I really don't have a clue where I stand on this, but I know I've always liked Harley Race far more than I've liked Kurt Angle.

 

I would be interested to find out because this is what you said about him two years ago...

 

Tough, old bruiser who'd slowly punish you with headbutts and suplexes and could have a good match with practically anyone. Even past his prime, was good in the ring up until his retirement. You should get this set being discussed when it's finished. I have him behind Flair as the second greatest American wrestler ever, and I wouldn't be surprised if I had him above Flair with even more footage availability.

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Bix, I want to know how Koko Beware was ruined in the WWF. Can you elaborate on that? What would you do with him that the WWF didn't? He still had some good matchups there like against the Bossman on PPV? and the Babarian in Maple Leaf Gardens.

 

There was one Race vs Hogan MSG match that had a really impressive preformance from Race. I remember being impressed with the match structure in this one when I watched it a few months ago.

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Where can I find a copy of Ware-Barbarian?

 

Maybe Duggan was the wrong comparison. One Man Gang may be a better one as neither got as bad as Duggan ended up but Koko was still more messed up by booking than the other two (well, Gang at least as he was more WWF limiting how their big guys work to brick walls and not mobile, bumping athletes. Duggan was hampered by booking but in a different way as he was turned into a blithering idiot character in addition maybe to the WWF seemingly forcing wrestlers to work too loose much of the time). He was presented as low level from the beginning, debuting in a team with a job guy. As a guy who lost all the time to much bigger wrestlers he was limited to false hope spots in competitive matches, not really able to look like he was on the level of his opponents, and it hurt him stylistically. I don't know if he had a WWF match or individual performance as good as the match with Ron Sexton that I've nominated for the Memphis set, which is not necessarily great match but a super Ware one man show.

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Ware vs Babarian was shown on CHCH Tv from Ontario at the end of one of their programs. They would often show a random match from Maple Leaf Gardens. I just remember watching it and thinking that was a good match. You would get random stuff like Hillbilly Jim vs Greg Valentine, Hercules vs Akeem, Macho Man vs Snuka or the Road Warriors vs The Orient Express. I don't know where you'd get it at. It would personaly take me forever to find it.

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I really don't have a clue where I stand on this, but I know I've always liked Harley Race far more than I've liked Kurt Angle.

 

I would be interested to find out because this is what you said about him two years ago...

 

Tough, old bruiser who'd slowly punish you with headbutts and suplexes and could have a good match with practically anyone. Even past his prime, was good in the ring up until his retirement. You should get this set being discussed when it's finished. I have him behind Flair as the second greatest American wrestler ever, and I wouldn't be surprised if I had him above Flair with even more footage availability.

Well I guess you showed me ...

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I really don't have a clue where I stand on this, but I know I've always liked Harley Race far more than I've liked Kurt Angle.

 

I would be interested to find out because this is what you said about him two years ago...

 

Tough, old bruiser who'd slowly punish you with headbutts and suplexes and could have a good match with practically anyone. Even past his prime, was good in the ring up until his retirement. You should get this set being discussed when it's finished. I have him behind Flair as the second greatest American wrestler ever, and I wouldn't be surprised if I had him above Flair with even more footage availability.

Well I guess you showed me ...

 

 

I have no idea what that means. Showed you what?

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There was one Race vs Hogan MSG match that had a really impressive preformance from Race. I remember being impressed with the match structure in this one when I watched it a few months ago.

I saw that match at the Boston Garden growing up. I remember being really excited that I would get to see Race (who I'd only read about out in the Apter mags) live. It was a good match, if I remember correctly and I was far from a Hogan fan at that point. In fact, I think they did a two match series with the second being a Texas Death or No DQ match. I could be mistaken on that as the majority of my wrestling memories are from live shows and I don't have the tape evidence to back it up.

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I don’t buy the Angle comparison.

 

It’s a bad comparison.

 

Race and Angle really aren’t comparable.

Race was smarter.

Race had better facials.

Race was a better brawler. Better strikes, better sell for strikes.

Race sold better.

Race fed face’s comebacks better.

Race laid out finishes better.

Race has a better body of high end work.

Race worked heel better.

And all these places better isn’t just a little bit better but a ton better.

 

Race is a 60’s wrestler who we are watching footage of from the 80s. Ric Flair is a 70s era wrestler who we mostly have footage of from the late 80s-00. The older he gets, the more locked into formula he becomes, the less credibly he’s booked, the shorter the matches he tries to fit his formula into---the more the holes in his formula get exposed. I have a bunch of title matches from when Race held the WWC title in 89 and the flaws are pretty glaring.

 

While all that is a way of saying that comparing Angles flaws during his peak with Race’s post peak isn’t fair, it should be said that Race’s post peak stuff is better than Angle’s peak. I’m trying to think if there is an Angle meaningless spotfest match as good as Race v Barbarian from 86.

 

Race’s worst instincts are better than Angle’s best.

 

That said this is a thread about Race’s worst instincts.

 

Race can be really frustrating and disappointing. Race is a guy who the toa guys always talked about having a “Big Book of Moves” and he can be really great in ring against other guys with Big books (although he can disappoint there too—as not always have the sense that he’s come up with a hierarchy of those moves). Put against guys with a smaller book and it can be a mess.

 

There are interesting entertaining ways to lay out a non one sided fight between a guy with a cannon and one with a spear and then there are ways that just come off foolish. For lack of better term I’ll call this a proportionality problem as in “disproportionate military response” (I’m sure if I knew something about role playing games there is a better word).

 

If you watch a lot of 80s wrestling you’ll watch lots of guys deal with the proportionality problem.

 

Flair v Kabuki from Japan where Kabuki’s offense consists of a superkick and a stomach claw (that emphasizes his double jointedness).

 

Jumbo v Blackjack from AWA where I think Blackjack’s big move appeared to be to cup Jumbo’s head with one hand and drive his knuckle into the temple with the other.

 

I’m trying to remember what Bugsy Mcgraw did in Bugsy v Baba (although that’s not really in the same league as the others as Bugsy v Baba was from All Japan and not Florida).

 

I don’t get the sense that Race is among the better guys at handling that situation.

It’s especially frustrating against undercard workers. The brainbuster on the floor where opponent gets up and gets into the ring and then goes on offense is a bad spot. Maybe it’s a dramatic spot in a big match. In Japan it would take a twenty count and not a ten. In against a guy who has a proportionate response to brainbuster on the floor it might work. In against a guy who has a bodyslam? In against an undercarder….

 

Race will give undercarder Dickie Steinborn a fishermen suplex in the ring throw him to the floor brainbuster him on the floor, then have Steinborn come back into the ring control the next 60% of match till Steinborn throws his bodyslam or drop kick for near fall then go up for crossbody for Race to roll him up. When Flair is working the same “Sam Houston/Ricky Santana is outwrestling the champ and controlling 60% of the match” Sam Houston still sells his chops. And fuck I’d rather have Sam Houston no sell a chop then no sell a brainbuster on the floor.

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I believe you're correct on the Hogan/Race matches, I've got at least one of them on tape somewhere.

 

Intrigued by this discussion, I popped in an old Race/Flair match. Don't have the date, but it was from Bob Geigel's All Star Wrestling, Harley was the babyface, and Missing Link did a bunch of interfering. The match itself was clipped in half, but what was left was mostly a plodding affair with both guys slowly hitting each other on the ropes. And sure enough, Harley did a piledriver, and Ric kicked out and came up swinging like nothing happened. However, Race did hit a surprisingly decent dropkick on Link at the end.

 

For comparison purposes, I also watched Angle vs. Austin from Summerslam 01... let's just say it was better than Harley's match.

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The best Angle match will be better than the worst Race match. No one is disputing that.

 

Anyway, I guess Race had a big book of moves but it was mainly a piledriver, a gut wrench suplex and headbutts from different elevations. I sarcastically refer to Harley bringing the moves when I nominate matches in the All Japan category but it really isn't that big of a moveset, just variations of the same moves.

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sure enough, Harley did a piledriver, and Ric kicked out and came up swinging like nothing happened.

I'm not really clear how this falls as a knock on Race.

 

"Wrestler does a move, opponent stupidly uses it as cue to go on instant offense that makes both look silly" is a very old problem. Maybe Race is the one calling the match, I don't know (I would assume he is, thinking about it, that would make sense). But even then you can still come back on offense while not forgetting you got hit with a piledriver moments before.

 

Not to mention that "guy gets hit with move, pops up with instant offense" is about the last thing I'd bring up in an Angle vs. anyone in the universe thread when talking about the anyone in the universe part.

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