Race vs. Angle

[Phil Schneider]

The title of this thread is misleading, I was comparing the two because I saw similar flaws. I don't think anyone here is arguing that Angle is better then Race. My argument is that they have similar shitty tendancies. Also meaningless piledriver where the opponent no-sells seems to be something Race does alot of, when it happens in a Flair match he seems like the right guy to blame for it.

[Jingus]

The best Angle match will be better than the worst Race match. No one is disputing that.

Well of course, but what is the internet for, if not completely unfair comparisons between apples and orange Tang?

 

sure enough, Harley did a piledriver, and Ric kicked out and came up swinging like nothing happened.

I'm not really clear how this falls as a knock on Race.

 

"Wrestler does a move, opponent stupidly uses it as cue to go on instant offense that makes both look silly" is a very old problem. Maybe Race is the one calling the match, I don't know (I would assume he is, thinking about it, that would make sense). But even then you can still come back on offense while not forgetting you got hit with a piledriver moments before.

As Phil pointed out, that's something which seems to happen a lot in Harley's matches. I still remember the first time I saw it, just watching some random tape of Race vs. anonymous jobber at an old Crockett tv studio taping. It was me and a few rassler pals killing time, and when that jabroni got dropped on his head and then got right back up we actually went "...what the FUCK?!" and rewound the tape to make sure we saw it right.

 

Meanwhile, I can think of several examples of Flair selling a piledriver like death. Admittedly, most of 'em involve Terry Funk, but it's not like no-selling the driver is something Ric did all the time.

[goodhelmet]

And has been mentioned in this thread, it wasn't exclusive to Harley Race. Lawler half-ass sold a brainbuster from Terry Gordy. Funk's piledrivers were no sold a plenty in All Japan. I thik that in some areas the pildriver was death, and in others it was a transtition move.

[Bix]

His point though was that if it was a common Race spot, there's no reason to assume that Flair called it.

[ohtani's jacket]

I watched Race/Windham 7/83 from Florida. Pretty decent match for old man Harley, most due to Windham's bladejob/selling. Harley was slow and kinda throwing out the spots. Windham blocked the piledriver early on, later Harley got a two count with it. Windham got to his feet, ran the ropes & was back on offence. Piledriver was the last big spot before the babyface went back on offence, but neither Harley or Windham felt like making a big deal out of it, even though Windham blocked it earlier and was going over. Afterwards, Dusty took a piledriver on the concrete and never got up. What it all means, I don't know. Harley was slow as fuck. I kinda buy the idea that Harley had a touring champ act & didn't adjust so well when he wasn't the champ anymore (though he was a decent grizzly, old-as-fuck heel), but I feel the need to stress the old-as-fuck part. Not really expecting 80s Harley Race to be great. And, really, how many workers have an act that never got old?

[Bix]

Not to be a spelling Nazi, but I really hope you meant "grizzled," as "grizzly" takes on a different, more horrifying meaning that I don't think most of the board watches Harley Race matches for.

[ohtani's jacket]

Yeah, grizzled.

 

It's a shame there's not a lot of footage of Harley in New Zealand. Would be interesting to see Harley vs. more Samoan wrestlers.

[jdw]

Anyway, I guess Race had a big book of moves but it was mainly a piledriver, a gut wrench suplex and headbutts from different elevations. I sarcastically refer to Harley bringing the moves when I nominate matches in the All Japan category but it really isn't that big of a moveset, just variations of the same moves.

Nah. He really does have a large moveset. It's a bit like Backlund or Jumbo at times where he doesn't try to cram all of it in like Bret's Five Moves of Doom. But watch enough of the 70s and 80s, and it's really quite wide for the era.

 

Couple of other points...

 

First one would be someone up above called Harley at 60s wrestler. I don't think we have much of anything of Harley's to show us what he typically worked like in the 60s.

 

From what I've watched of him in the 70s and 80s, not a great deal of it comes across as 60s style.

 

Perhaps the bumping might be out of the Stevens mold, though really some of the best of it was closer to the what Terry Funk was doing in "goofy bumping" - the spot down the ring steps, or the one where he'd control his bump to the floor by catching the ropes with his toe/foot before dropping down on his "head". That stuff really wasn't even major 70s style - they were a bit ahead of their time on it, and you'd see the later nuttier bumpers taking it to the next level.

 

His matwork in the 70s and 80s clearly isn't high end 60s style. It's not something that one would confuse with say the 1969 Baba vs. Destroyer match. It's more just pedestrian stuff that you'd see in the 60s, 70s and 80s - basic shit. If he was against someone who wanted to work near escapes, they worked it. If not, it could plod on. But it doesn't strike me as 60s style. It would be interesting to see what he did in the AWA in tags in the 60s to see if there was anything different.

 

His moveset clearly wasn't 60s. That's not to say that some or many of the moves didn't exist in the 60s. But I don't think anyone did them to the degree that Harley did. Yohe was around in the 60s, and has comment for years that the move towards more moves like a variety of suplexes seemed to come from the Funks. I don't have anything definative on nailing that down, but he did see the Funks out here as Dory was the champ and Terry often hit towns in advance of him, and what the Funks were up to stood out to him as "new".

 

Take Baba as an example. We have a fair amount of his stuff from the 60s to see what he tossed out. We have a fair amount of his stuff in the 70s on into the 90s. We see a guy who was adding stuff to his moveset for *decades*. I could swear I've seen him use a DDT, which he sure as hell wasn't using in the 70s, let alone the 60s. There's not a lot of moves there in the 60s, though it's a boatload of fun to watch him roll out the bombs away. Over time as the 70s moved along, he added a crapload of stuff. It strikes me as a 70s movement.

 

Race is right there.

 

To me Race is part a 70s wrestler, part an 80s wrestler, and part a 90s wrestler. For better or worse.

 

 

---------

 

Second one would be that Harley needed another person with a big moveset in there to have a good match. I'm not sold that's the case. As with others, I liked the Bundy match. I think it reflected well on both, but I'm not sure the "good" that Bundy brought to his end of the match were Moves~! I like the Race-Steamer from Japan, and it didn't strike me that Ricky's strength in it was hitting hot moves toe-to-toe with Harley. Not saying that he didn't hit some good stuff, but I actually think Ricky was better on defense eating shit in it and selling like Ricky Steamboat.

 

---------

 

Third, the Angle comp is interesting. Hadn't seen it, but there are similarities. I wonder if Benoit isn't a better comp for Harley.

 

 

John

[Cox]

Man what does it say for poor Harley Race when the two people he's being compared to in this thread are a drug-addicted delusional sociopath and a family-murderer?

[goodhelmet]

Nah. He really does have a large moveset. It's a bit like Backlund or Jumbo at times where he doesn't try to cram all of it in like Bret's Five Moves of Doom. But watch enough of the 70s and 80s, and it's really quite wide for the era.

Maybe, but the big difference is that Angle is going to hit every signature move in one 15 minute match.

[S.L.L.]

Man what does it say for poor Harley Race when the two people he's being compared to in this thread are a drug-addicted delusional sociopath and a family-murderer?

Unfortunately, it says that he's a professional wrestler.

[jdw]

Nah. He really does have a large moveset. It's a bit like Backlund or Jumbo at times where he doesn't try to cram all of it in like Bret's Five Moves of Doom. But watch enough of the 70s and 80s, and it's really quite wide for the era.

Maybe, but the big difference is that Angle is going to hit every signature move in one 15 minute match.

 

There are extremes in movesets:

 

* stuff someone hits in EVERY match

 

* stuff someone might hit once in a blue moon, or even against a specific opponent

 

I don't think of either as being a wrestler's moveset. I tend to think of it as what a wrestler regularly will whip out.

 

Harely regularly whipped out all sorts of moves. For the *era*, it was a shitload in number. In his typical matches, even when not hitting all of them, it was a lot that he was willing to run through.

 

Then you have the grey area.

 

Bret didn't hit the tope suicida all the time in his WWF singles career. He tended to use it as a specialty move. But it came across as more regular than Taker's dive over the top. For Taker, that was a super special move he might role out once a year for a key photo op. Bret would role out the tope suicida in some big matches, and on occassion when he was feeling frisky.

 

Taker's dive isn't something I would consider part of his moveset, though it is a move he knows and does on occassion.

 

Bret's is borderline. If you watched a year of his in 1993-95 and saw it show up in say half his PPV matches and bigger, lengthier, more important Raw matches (though they typically weren't as important back then), I'd argue they were part of his moveset. PPV was the end all, be all in that era, and if someone goes to the well with a move in half their big matches in a year, then it's pretty clearly part of the rotation of moves they use.

 

The thing about guys like Bob and Harley and Jumbo in the 70s is that while they had things like the swinging neckbreaker or double arm suplex that were in their moveset, they didn't bring them to the table in all their matches. 3-4 "big moves" in a match were a heck of a lot in the era. I've seen Backlund matches where he might just use 2-3 such as the Bob Driver, the Vertical Suplex and the Atomic Drop. Probably some where I've seen him use just one.

 

John

[jdw]

Wanted to add to the point about "against certain opponents".

 

You'll see that one thing Harley tends to add are "moves" to other opponents that they might not regularly do. Examples would be:

 

* the "I Gutwrench You... No! You Gutwrench Me!" counter spot

 

* simple things like the vertical suplex into the bodypress counter

 

* slightly more complex things like the diving bodypress that Harley roles through to end up on top for the pin

 

Look at the finish at Starcade '83. I'm not saying that Flair *never* successfully came off the top with a press in his career for a win. I'm sure he has... and it's possible that I've seen some in his matches against people other than Harley. But we all generally know what happens when Ric goes to the top, just like when Arn does... or when Barry comes off the top with the elbow. These guys typically don't hit things in general, or in Barry's case a very specific things off the top.

 

In contrast, the Press is in a lot of Harley matches, specifically as the finish. He loves it from both positions. From the bottom to counter roll through to end up on top. From the top off the ropes to have the person catching him to counter roll through to pin him. It's a Harley spot.

 

Starcade '83 played off it by have Kiniski splat Harley with the trip up, which prevented a roll through. But it very much was a regular item in Harley's moveset, either with him hitting it or him giving it to the opponent. And some of them, like Ric, didn't have it as part of their regular moveset in the way Harley was using it. Some, like Steamboat, did have it in there, in which case you had in Race vs. Steamer a pair of wrestler going to one of their favorite finishes.

 

You see some of this when Race is in there with Baba where you see Baba hit some things that really aren't out of Baba's playbook... except you'll see them when he's in there against Race.

 

This isn't uncomon. Flair "added" the gorilla press and back bodydrop to countless wrestlers who didn't regularly do them. Not exactly like the second is really a "move", it it is a Flair Spot that loads of people did against Ric.

 

 

John

[Phil Schneider]

And has been mentioned in this thread, it wasn't exclusive to Harley Race. Lawler half-ass sold a brainbuster from Terry Gordy. Funk's piledrivers were no sold a plenty in All Japan. I thik that in some areas the pildriver was death, and in others it was a transtition move.

We aren't talking about Harley Race throwing out a piledriver in a match and it not leading to a finish. We are talking about Race piledriving people on the floor in meaningless undercard matches and forcing the guy taking the move to no-sell it. Those things are pretty different, and it is as bad as IWA-MS rookies throwing burning hammers in openers.

[jdw]

And has been mentioned in this thread, it wasn't exclusive to Harley Race. Lawler half-ass sold a brainbuster from Terry Gordy. Funk's piledrivers were no sold a plenty in All Japan. I thik that in some areas the pildriver was death, and in others it was a transtition move.

We aren't talking about Harley Race throwing out a piledriver in a match and it not leading to a finish. We are talking about Race piledriving people on the floor in meaningless undercard matches and forcing the guy taking the move to no-sell it. Those things are pretty different, and it is as bad as IWA-MS rookies throwing burning hammers in openers.

 

How often does Harley do this spot?

 

How often is it no sold rather than slow sold?

 

 

John

[anarchistxx]

And Harley is by no means the only one.

 

Watch the Dynamite/Sayama 2/3 Falls, and the no selling of the floor drivers is far worse than anything I've seen Harley do. In the 1/5/85 Yokota/Galactica there's another incident where Galactica takes a reverse piledriver on the floor and is back on offence a few seconds later.

[Indikator]

Yeah, piledrivers were not taken seriously in the Sayama NJPW era. I wonder where Dynamite picked that habit up and how it came to Japan, I doubt it was during his IWE tour. I was suprised when I found out that the last round of an European Rounds match was often used as a "highspot and no sell" round that lead to a time limit draw. Great way of not having a decisive finish but still pleasing the crowd.

 

But the La Galactica no sell sounds rather strange to me as she is Mexican. I haven't seen enough Zenjo from the Sato/Yokota era to say that this was extraordinary for AJW standards. Maybe the girls were not only responsible for the majority of 90s movesets but also for things like the piledriver inflation

[Resident Evil]

I thought the body language selling of the piledrivers in the 2/3 falls match was exceptional. It was one of the many reasons why I feel the match is one of the best of all time.

[anarchistxx]

I thought the body language selling of the piledrivers in the 2/3 falls match was exceptional. It was one of the many reasons why I feel the match is one of the best of all time.

Complete oppsite for me, it's why I hate the match. Their one fall match was so much better.

[ohtani's jacket]

Is that the one that ends with them piledriving each other on the floor? That was an awkward finish.

[anarchistxx]

Honestly can't remember. Haven't seen it for about three years, just remember loving it.

 

Just checked...seems to be 04/21/83.

[Guest DietSoda]

Why do people keep knocking Angle for going for big moves early in the match? Shouldnt wrestlers give the illusion that they're trying to win a match?

 

I never quite understood the Angle hate...but it's usually by Cena lovers, so that sort of makes sense, I guess.

[jdw]

I think critism of Kurt predates major Cena-Luv.

 

John

[Guest The 3H's]

Why do people keep knocking Angle for going for big moves early in the match? Shouldnt wrestlers give the illusion that they're trying to win a match?

 

I never quite understood the Angle hate...but it's usually by Cena lovers, so that sort of makes sense, I guess.

Because if his opponents get right up from all the shit (Which is what he wants them to do), it makes it look weak and pointless.

[tomk]

I missed a bunch of this apparently while housebreaking a new puppy.

 

How often is it no sold rather than slow sold?

 

 

John

Are we arguing that headrop at beginning of match while ignored long term contributes to vertigo making the crossbody more difficult?

 

And Harley is by no means the only one.

 

Watch the Dynamite/Sayama 2/3 Falls, and the no selling of the floor drivers is far worse than anything I've seen Harley do. In the 1/5/85 Yokota/Galactica there's another incident where Galactica takes a reverse piledriver on the floor and is back on offence a few seconds later.

Race is a heavyweight wrestler.

 

Lack of selling (or if you want different selling) in juniors matches is a given. Nobody is surprised by no selling in Dynamite match. It's part of what people point to when they prefer heavyweight wrestling. It's why Race spot is more jarring.

 

I never quite understood the Angle hate...but it's usually by Cena lovers, so that sort of makes sense, I guess

Angle criticism is pre-smackdown six and picked up during the Smackdown six period. 2001-2002. Cena showed up around 2002 and I think seeing people pop as big for his rolling bodyslams as everyone elses rolling Germans was a big nail in the coffin of that dead end style.

 

there was some praise of Cena v Lesnar series, but most of that was aimed at Lesnar.

JDW or CRZ might be able to find where Jewett praised the smartness of the work in some Cena v Dupree matches.

CRZ may be able to find where I wrote some flattering things about Cena v Eddy Latin street fight.

And I know I wrote some stuff complimentary of the mic work in the Cena/B-2 pairing.

But really there wasn't alot of praise for cena as more than amusing undercard act in 2002.

 

 

But nobody who was criticizing Angle in 2001-2002 period was praising Cena. He just showed up in 2002 and his finisher was a foreign object.