The interesting Dave Meltzer posts thread

[Bix]

How about that, it was Muraco.

 

Scanned through it to see what Murdoch did and he was far from lazy. He did his usual shtick (including some great stuff on the apron), took a bump into the ring as part of said apron shtick, and hit all of his trademark spots, including the brainbuster and calf branding.

[shoe]

Downtown on 6th street (bar ditstrict in Austin,Texas) for Halloween I saw 4 Misterios and one Psicosis. No WWE though. When WCW was hot in 96 or 97 I must have seen 25 Syxx.

[Bix]

For what it's worth, there are WONs from '88ish where, when commenting on Murdoch looking good in JCP, he said something along the lines of "Murdoch worked like he was in Japan" as a way of saying he was working hard. So at that time he didn't seem to think that Murdoch ever dogged it in Japan.

 

John, is it time to drag out the '84 and '87 Japan trip issues again? '84 would've been during the MSG Tag League which seems like an odd time to be lazy.

[KrisZ]

I just found this one.

 

Terry Gordy vs. Dick Murdoch (8/11/87) = San Jose, California

 

Murdoch holds Gordy in a headlock for 8 minutes of a 10 minute match and got a DUD rating.

[sek69]

ITT it's once again proven most of Dave's opinions on guys are based on things he's never seen personally.

[Tawren]

ITT it's once again proven most of Dave's opinions on guys are based on things he's never seen personally.

What? Dave states himself that he saw Murdoch several times live. Quote: "I saw Murdoch all over the world in the 80s in a bunch of territories and also socialized with him many times in Japan." So agree or disagree with his opinion, he's seen what he's talking about. This is a talking point that should be taken out back and shot.

\

[Bix]

What "bunch of territories" would he have seen Murdoch in live in the '80s? GCW didn't run in California or Texas. Mid-South/UWF only ran in California w/ Murdoch in '87 after the buyout and I don't think Murdoch was working there while Dave was in Texas if he would've gone on a trip to Houston. It looks like Dave may be talking about San Francisco when Geigel sent the TV and wrestlers and/or when Graham did the same later on, plus the JCP run when he was 40+, on top of the specifically mentioned Japanese tours and Amarillo invasion of NorCal. Aside from the Japanese tours, some of the JCP shows, and maybe some WWF shows, these were miserable, embarrassing, and ill-advised failures as far as how they drew, so even if Murdoch DID dog it, that could have certainly skewed his attitude on those shows. On the Amarillo-booked tour especially, the money that he lost based on Terry Garvin's failed bet would have surely been weighing on his mind.

 

Kris, do you have NorCal results from '79-'80? How often was the Cow Palace running then?

 

At any rate, I don't think Dave could have seen Murdoch live that much.

[KrisZ]

The only NoCal results I have from 79-80 was mainly the PNW talent shows and shows without Murdoch. I'm telling you that reading a lot of reports sent in by others, there is a lot of people that were bashing Murdoch for clowning hence the belief that this was so.

[jdw]

kjh or Phil can ask Dave the various territories where he saw Murdoch live.

 

Dave did do summers in Florida as a kid. How many *house shows* he went to in FL back then, who knows. I don't recall him being specific on whether he watch wrestling on TV or also went to shows while there.

 

I don't think the stuff in Japan will be terribly useful. The comment would be that Dick always had his working boots on in Japan.

 

I also think it probably would be useful to get Dave's thoughts on Dick working a largely comedy and stooging match, and if that would be "lazy". I can see someone being bored by Dick's "shtick" - I'm not as big of a fan of it as some. Maybe Dave wants brawling Dick rather than comedy Murdoch.

 

Not agreeing with that, but tossing out a possible thing where the same thing is being seen (comedy and stooging) but being liked in different ways.

 

John

[Bix]

I agree that it's possibly a rejection to the shtick. There was a ton of resentment towards matches that went several minutes before the first lock-up without "wrestling" by Dave and his readers back then, and J.J. Dillon, who may have wrestled Murdoch more than anyone else, described his shortcomings as a "tendency to clown around."

[jdw]

It's also dependant on the wrestler.

 

Flair Shtick = Greatest Wrestler Ever

 

It's possible that what Dave liked about Murdoch was the kick ass stuff. Some of the comedy was fine. But if it was just a lot of headlock+comedy, then it might not be what he wanted out of Dick.

 

John

[Bix]

Amarillo Booking Office invasion:

6/11/79 Santa Rosa

Dick Murdoch drew Blackjack Mulligan

 

EDIT: The TV when Geigel supplied tallent was the show from Kansas City and there are no NorCal house show results w/ Murdoch from then.

[Guest KyleWilder]

Check this out.

 

""Those in TNA have raised a gamut of emotions, from stories of both the good and bad of WCW, the height of wrestling’s popularity with the Monday Night Wars, and the level of outright incompetence that drove the company to its death, taking down an industry that has never come close to fully recovering. History would not indicate a positive. Generally speaking, those who leave the business for years, don’t follow it closely, and come back in, are left out of touch with both the talent and the fans and more often then not, their returns are disappointing. Jim Barnett probably said it best a few years back when I asked him, after the success he had in the 60s in running Australia, if, when he was kicked out of the Georgia promotion in 1982, if he ever considered just going back to revive Australia. He noted that in wrestling you have a point in your life when you understand it and are on top of your game, but you can’t do it again. When discussing Vince McMahon, the reality was, McMahon had that point in the 80s, but his success in the late 90s was more a stroke of luck than of creation. It was Bischoff who came up with the new weekly major event called Nitro that McMahon copied to update Raw, and stars that McMahon didn’t create, but were self-created, lucking into Steve Austin and The Rock, two of the great charismatic characters in history at the same time, at a time when millions watched and opposition was essentially handing then over viewers with weekly stupidity, led to McMahon’s greatest success."

 

People who disagreed with him on the board even got him to give credit to Vince Russo for something(regarding the McMahon heel character being created).

[Sean Liska]

Yeah, that's craziness to say he "lucked" into Austin and Rock and the Attitude success. People forget how ugly it was in 96-97 with them doing ratings in the high 1's and low 2's and with WCW having all of the momentum. To go from where they were to the heights of the Attitude boom required a lot more than luck.

 

To say that Austin is self-created is to ignore the double turn with Bret, the USA-Canada feud, the Austin-McMahon fued, the huge Tyson gamble, the Highway to Hell in the summer of 98, and a ton of other brilliant stuff that lead to Austin's success.

[Bix]

C&P please.

[Boondocks Kernoodle]

There is a big difference between the Vince of the 80s and the 90s.

 

The Vince of the 80s was a visionary who created something, granted out of learning what had worked elsewhere, but he still did it.

 

The Vince of the 90s had things created for him. Not to say he had no part in them, but Bischoff created the idea of the television show with the main event that Raw became, as the Raws prior to that were Superstars with added comedy and a main event or two. Rock came along. Vince didn't cut him off, but he didn't create him. His vision for him was entirely different than the successful character. Same as Austin. Even his own character was a result of Russo pushing him to be a character instead of an announcer.

 

Bischoff was more responsible for Vince for the increase in popularity of wrestling, but Vince kept it going after Bischoff set the table, and was very lucky to have Austin and Rock at the same time. Replace them with Rocky Maivia and The Ringmaster, take Foley out of the picture (Vince never wanted him--turned him down for ten straight years, and his hiring was largely a favor called in by Jim Ross as head of talent relations), and Foley helped revitalize Undertaker, and you are talking a very different history.

 

Vince was great as a character and is a great promoter. But his second run was the result of a lot of lucky things coming together, and not a great creative vision.

Vince and the company attempted to script Vince as the babyface coming off the Bret Hart thing, but the people didn't accept it. Russo talked him into becoming a Bischoff-like heel owner character because the people already hated him. The character came off Survivor Series but was inspired by Bischoff's rendition.

[Sean Liska]

How many non-lucky wrestling promoters have there been in history? Everyone is a product of their times and circumstances.

[jdw]

Eric Bischoff for the Hall of Fame. Responsible to the success of both WCW and now the WWF in the 90s and early 00s. If that's not a HOFer, I don't know what is.

 

*half* -->

 

John

[Bob Morris]

I think why Dave referred to Vince McMahon as being "lucky" is that most of the ideas that came forward during the Attitude Era really had nothing to do with ideas or a vision Vince McMahon had.

 

When Vince McMahon went national in the 1980s, he had a vision of what he wanted the company to be, he knew he wanted Hulk Hogan to be part of it and he was able to pick up on pop culture at the time and know how to connect wrestling with it.

 

Over time, Vince McMahon lost touch with his audience and kept trying to stick with what he thought was best. It took the likes of Shane McMahon, Vince Russo and Pat Patterson to convince him that he needed to change his approach, because the old way Vince McMahon wanted to stick with wasn't working.

 

Steve Austin was the one that came up with the Stone Cold character when Vince McMahon wanted him to be The Ringmaster. Vince McMahon also wanted Rocky Maivia to be the new squeaky-clean babyface, but when that didn't work out, it took a heel turn, a little repackaging by Russo and a lot of improvisation by Dwayne Johnson to bring forth The Rock.

 

So I think that is what Dave is getting at... Vince McMahon didn't really do that much to bring about the change in the WWF's direction. It was others who came up with the material or pushed Vince McMahon to go with that direction.

[El-P]

I think it's pretty fair to say that Vince got a lot of help from Austin promoting himself and creating his own catchphrase, Russo's ideas about modernising the product and luck to get back on top. No matter how much I can't stand Russo, there's no way to not give him at least some credit for pushing Vince to go in another direction. Look at the WWF from the early 90's to 96... Vince just didn't snap his fingers and created the über successful Attitude era as the genius he's portrayed to be...

 

Damn, here I am, almost defending Vince Russo, who seem to get zero credit at this point.

[Sean Liska]

Over time, Vince McMahon lost touch with his audience and kept trying to stick with what he thought was best. It took the likes of Shane McMahon, Vince Russo and Pat Patterson to convince him that he needed to change his approach, because the old way Vince McMahon wanted to stick with wasn't working.

 

Steve Austin was the one that came up with the Stone Cold character when Vince McMahon wanted him to be The Ringmaster. Vince McMahon also wanted Rocky Maivia to be the new squeaky-clean babyface, but when that didn't work out, it took a heel turn, a little repackaging by Russo and a lot of improvisation by Dwayne Johnson to bring forth The Rock.

 

So I think that is what Dave is getting at... Vince McMahon didn't really do that much to bring about the change in the WWF's direction. It was others who came up with the material or pushed Vince McMahon to go with that direction.

That's what any good leader does, though. He surrounds himself with smart people and uses their good ideas while giving them an overall shape.

 

I think the whole Ringmaster/Austin coming up with Stone Cold thing is overplayed. Yes, it took 3-4 whole months for Vince to see Austin's potential. But once he did, Austin was given as effective of a push as you could conceive of. That's what is overlooked when people make it seem like Austin came up with his gimmick and soon after that was the biggest thing ever. Vince used Bret Hart's big return match at Survivor Series that year to elevate Austin to a new level. He teased the double-turn with him and Hart for months, and had the audience right where he wanted them when he did the big angle at WM13, which was all things considered one of the best angles in wrestling history. Then they kept it hot with the USA-Canada feud which was unlike anything ever done with guys alternating between heel and babyface weekly. They built up the deal with Austin giving Vince the stunner at the Garden perfectly. Vince made a multi-million dollar gamble on the Mike Tyson thing working out, and he couldn't just throw money around loosely back then like WCW. Austin confronting Tyson was perfect. Tyson joining DX was great. And of course the Austin-McMahon feud speaks for itself. Maybe Vince didn't come up with the idea of turning heel, but once he did they executed it perfectly. And you can't tell me it was Russo writing that weekly TV.

 

It's easy to look back ten years later and say, "Well, he stumbled into Austin and the Rock, of course he had a big run." But it required a ton of smart booking decisions and several years worth of compelling TV to get where they did. And all of the momentum they built could have easily been killed if there had been any major booking missteps. If it was so easy to do, they wouldn't be the only company to have ever gotten so hot.

[Bix]

I find it weird that people forget that Austin went from Ringmaster to "Stone Cold" Steve Austin in part because the Ringmaster gimmick was changed to being a detatched serial killer type after a month or two (he did a few low-key, Jake Roberts style promos at that point). The "Stone Cold" we all know and love that's pretty much the opposite of "stone cold" in terms of personality came about when DiBiase left and Austin cut the promo about throwing the strap match so DiBiase would leave. The Austin 3:16 promo on top of the KOTR win after going to the hospital between matches fully established the persona that he broke out with.

[El-P]

And you can't tell me it was Russo writing that weekly TV.

Well, Russo was the head writer at this point and during the entire rise to the top, whether we like to admit it or not. It's strange that with time (and the WCW catastrophy), his role has been downplayed to nearly "Oh, he was throwing a few ideas there and there, but McMahon is the one responsible for the (supposed, but that's another thing) greatness of the product" level. Not that I absolutely want to defend Russo, but I do think he's not getting the proper credit he deserves for the WWF product during this period. Oh, anyway...

[kjh]

Well, Russo was the head writer at this point and during the entire rise to the top, whether we like to admit it or not.

This isn't quite true, as Russo wasn't an official part of the booking team until mid April 1997, by which point Austin had already turned babyface and his feud with the Hart Foundation had already kicked off. So it would be wrong to give Russo too much credit for the Austin phenomenon, though he certainly helped to grow his blossoming popularity. Also, it took time for Russo to become McMahon's most trusted creative advisor; I think the great storylines of the summer of '97 that started the turnaround was more of a group effort, with Russo becoming more and more responsible for the creative direction as time went on.

[El-P]

I'm not giving Russo credit for the Austin phenomenon, I'm just saying he should begiven the right credit, which hasn't been the case lately when that period was talked about. His Shoot Interview with Ferrara was very interesting for the WWF part, and if you can separate the facts from the obvious bullshit, then Russo didn't came off bad at all. He gave Austin all the credit in the world for coming up with his entire character himself, including the Austin 3:16 line, so it's not like he himself thinks he's responsible for Austin's success. But Vince really has nothing to do with it either at the beginning, it's a matter of luck (HHH being depushed because of the curtain call) and circumstances and a über talented guy coming up with his own stuff to try and get over. Russo also said how he would write the TV, but McMahon always found a way to add his own little twists and details that would make a good idea a great one. Basically, Russo said Vince couldn't write a TV show to save his life, but if presented with the format, he would be able to twist it and make it really better and get the most out of every good ideas and turn them into great stuff. Which seems pretty fair to me. Which also explains why Russo and Ferrara were such failures in WCW (and when you add the fucked up company structure it was a recipe for disaster)

Giving Vince Russo credit in 2009 is an interesting exercice.