The interesting Dave Meltzer posts thread

[smkelly]

Being HHH's "flunky" sort of suggests that he hasn't really changed that much at all other than he's no longer completely messed up on drugs, so he's less prone to unpredictable mood swings, temper tantrums and the like.

His body has obviously changed, especially not long after his return when he was still on the juice. He came back looking somewhat toned up and then suddenly looked awfully plain.

Honestly though, I don't think he's changed all that much since coming back. He has had plenty of opportunities to put people over, like Jericho and Morrison/Miz, but has never truly done so. Hell, Jericho took a count out loss to HBK a few weeks back...and he is holding the big gold belt.

 

Wow from reading this thread maybe some of you have started your own religion, because you seem to have a zealot hate in everything Shawn Michaels does or says. Who cares if he rather play face than heel, what difference does that make to anyone. If Shawn had come in to your house and killed your family than i can understand why you may hate him. But all he did was to be an asshole in a business full of assholes, and since he came back from most accounts he been a different person. He goes to work and works harder than most in the company, puts over people when asked to, and then goes home. Also just because you follow a religion it doesn't mean you cant make some mistakes along the way.

Shawn Michaels is an asshole. Unless you're a naive teenaged girl; everyone hates assholes because they're an asshole. He may not be as selfish and conceited, let alone hypocritical as he used to be, but he is certainly at a higher level than most are going to allow and still find agreeable.

 

Who has he really put over, though? Superman Cena...the Undertaker...Orton kind of.

I'm curious though - how do you know he works harder than most everyone else in the company? Just because his matches are perceived better doesn't mean that he works harder...some people have more natural talent, leeway with the booking sheets, etc.

[tomk]

He traded wins with Cena.

[smkelly]

Regardless, Cena came out looking better; had submitted HBK at WrestleMania 23, and then it took HBK nearly an hour to beat a man known to not work long (30+) matches.

[S.L.L.]

Who cares if he rather play face than heel, what difference does that make to anyone.

Shawn's career is probably (temporarily, at least) going to be over in less than 24 hours, so I suppose this is a moot point. That said, I think Shawn kinda sucks as a face, and I think there is (was?) more potential with Shawn as a heel. So, yeah, I care. I know that doesn't count for a whole lot, but as long as you're asking....

 

But all he did was to be an asshole in a business full of assholes, and since he came back from most accounts he been a different person.

 

Yes, in that he went from a guy who used his position as the company's top star and as a perceived drawing card to pull power plays to a guy who used his position as the BFF of the company's heir apparent and his perceived religious reawakening to pull power plays. It's more of a lateral movement than anything.

 

He goes to work and works harder than most in the company,

 

Working harder does not necessarily mean working better.

 

puts over people when asked to,

 

"People" is plural. Shawn put over a person when asked to. Best I can tell, he's been asked to put over two people since coming back. He put over the Undertaker without any problems. When asked to put over Hogan, he threw a temper tantrum live on PPV and got to cut a promo completely burying him the next night. So, yeah, he doesn't put over people when asked to. He put over one person out of the two people he was asked to put over.

 

and then goes home. Also just because you follow a religion it doesn't mean you cant make some mistakes along the way.

True. That said, it seems these "mistakes" always seem to happen when it's convenient to him, and he always seems to invoke his Christian principles when it's convenient to him, as well. It all seems rather...well...convenient. Part of being pious means you actually adhere to your faith even when you're in a situation where you'd rather not. I can't peer into Shawn's private life. I can't say that his faith has never been tested, and that he's never stuck to his principles in spite of that. That said, everything we know about his wrestling career says that when his faith stands in the way of personal gain, he'll put it aside and make a "mistake". Jimmy Swaggart made "mistakes", too. Religion doesn't mean you can't still make mistakes, but it's not a "get out of jail free" card, either. Context of Shawn's "mistakes" suggest they're not mistakes at all.

[rovert]

SPOILERS

 

 

 

 

Dave did not seem to know what to make out of Bret/Vince:

 

Vince vs. Bret is next

 

The Hart Family are heel lumberjacks having turned on Bret. Smith, Bruce, Diana and Ellie turning on Bret is art imitating life. Bruce Hart is the referee. Bruce was the guy who Pat Patterson chose to feud with Bret years ago and Bret turned it down, saying the feud would never fly and Bret chose Owen instead, which ended up being one of Bret's best programs. Smith looks a lot like Stu. But Bret said he knew about it ahead of time and the Hart family was paid up front and Bruce hugged Bret.

 

Match was strange, to say the least. It was the most anti-psychology match in history, as Vince just took a beating with like two dozen chair shots before the sharpshooter finish. Crowd did pop for the sharpshooter but the crowd had no idea how to react to this. Hart Family posing at the end got a polite applause because fans knew they were supposed to. Vince took some very legitimate punishment, the most notable bump being when David Hart Smith picked Vince up and Tyson Kidd came off the top rope to the floor with a Hart attack style clothesline. Vince took the Road Warrior double impact and landed badly on the back of his head on the floor. Bret even did a few low blows. There was a point when this was like overkill, but I think the idea was they had to go 10:00 and Vince would take a beating. Vince got no offense in at all. He did get a tire iron and made the family all back off, but when he went to use it on Bret, Bret ducked, and beat on him some more, including with a tire iron shot to the throat done in Ernie Ladd/Luke Graham thumb thrust to the throat style.

I wonder what Bret's reaction to that will be.

[jdw]

Bret-Vince was really bad. It's a match that Patterson could have laid out a miracle with... but this was just a mess. Frankly should win Worst Match of the Year given the years of build and the tv time building it up this year.

 

John

[rovert]

It was like a Vince McMahon snuff film for the most part.

[Bix]

It was like a Vince McMahon snuff film for the most part.

You took the words right out of my brain there.

[Sean Liska]

Love Dave, but he's slowly losing it on the Observer board.

 

In response to allegations that Dave always glosses over stories that make Flair look bad:

 

"Yep, the only publication that covered his being yelled at for throwing blood in the crowd last week.

 

Yep, never mention his financial issues.

 

Yep, had more details than any other media outlet on the deal with his wife.

 

Yep, go fuck yourself."

 

In response to people making fun of Alvarez for getting the wrong quarter's for Impact on Monday:

 

"He got the numbers from Spike. Seriously, is he supposed to be a mind reader when he gets numbers from an official source and due to a clerical error on their side the numbers are slightly off.

 

Save the Bryan shit for if he makes a mistake, not because somebody from Spike looked at the wrong column on a spread sheet."

 

Then again, I can see how that board could do this to someone.

[Sean Liska]

Who cares if he rather play face than heel, what difference does that make to anyone.

Shawn's career is probably (temporarily, at least) going to be over in less than 24 hours, so I suppose this is a moot point. That said, I think Shawn kinda sucks as a face, and I think there is (was?) more potential with Shawn as a heel. So, yeah, I care. I know that doesn't count for a whole lot, but as long as you're asking....

 

But all he did was to be an asshole in a business full of assholes, and since he came back from most accounts he been a different person.

 

Yes, in that he went from a guy who used his position as the company's top star and as a perceived drawing card to pull power plays to a guy who used his position as the BFF of the company's heir apparent and his perceived religious reawakening to pull power plays. It's more of a lateral movement than anything.

 

 

 

I don't see this. WWE's made a whole new generation of stars since HBK came back in 2002. He hasn't done a ton of clean jobs because Vince has gotten really protective of all of his top stars, but he did give-and-take programs with Orton and Edge, tapped to Cena at WrestleMania, helped Chris Jericho reach a level of importance in the company that he's never been at before, tapped clean to Angle at a Mania, tapped clean to Benoit at Backlash in 04, put Jeff Hardy over clean on RAW in February 08, etc.

[ragemaster]

Ok people lets look at the three main points of view that you keep reaching for, that Shawn Michaels hasn't changed or is still a asshole

 

Point 1.

 

Michaels behaviour with his summerslam match with Hogan and the interview afterwards.

 

Let look at the facts Hogan came in with creative control to do the program with Shawn, Shawn agreed to work with Hogan. As it came to Summerslam hogan said he would work two more matches with Michaels, a cage match and then one more. But said he wouldn't put over Michaels in any of them, but he would do the finish in the cage the same as the Paul orndorff cage match (with hogan wining). This put Michaels back up, as it would any top star including -------- please put you own favourite wrestler in here as i put money on it they would all be equally pissed off by it. But because it Michaels, a born again christian, he's not aloud to get upset but must take it on the chin and say yes please that sound's like a great idea, do you want me to bend over as well. Now lets look at the summerslam match itself did Shawn sabotage Hogan and make him look bad. Before summerslam Shawn had asked hogan to to a walkthrough of the match for summerslam and hogan declined the invite, so Shawn went out there with a man of limited movement, who couldn't bump and spent 20 odd minutes bumping around and making Hogan look as good as possible and trying to have the best match he could. This talk of Michaels temper tantrum in the summerslam match didn't happen. It just something people on this board are saying to try and prove a point of view. Please watch the match again and give me time marks when this happened as i watched the match and i cant find any evidence of it happing. Yes he over bumped but what else was he going to do, or could do. Now on the monday night with the famous interview, did Shawn act in an unprofessional way. Um i don't think he should of done the interview as it was him just venting some of the anger and frustrating he was feeling, and did nothing for business in any way. But did it hurt business, no because Michaels's wasn't going to work any rematches with Hogan because he had the freedom of saying no. Was he unprofessional for doing the interview, no because he works for Vincent K. McMahon who Had oked the interview. If Vince had said no you can't do the interview, and then he had done it, then yes he would of acted in an unprofessional way. Should Vince oked the interview, i would say no, but if you do have an issue with the interview it with vince and not shawn, as he oked it. Also like i said if any one else did the interview on hogan you would be doing hero worship (or at least ok with it) on the said person and you would not be knocking them for it.

 

Point 2

 

Using his religion or friendship with hunter for political games

 

The main point seems to be his refusal to go smackdown and to stay on raw. If he had of gone to smackdown it wasn't to be in same position he held on raw, it was to be the number one guy with the title.(Going to be given to him, to get him to move brands) Can you imagine the posts on this board if that had happened. On raw most of the time he held the second or third spot on the card. Most people on this board think it was because of his friendship with hunter, the truth is he was simply to good to be in any other position. He probably should of had more runs with the title than he did, but i think at that time in his life he just didn't care to hold it. I'm not sure what were the power plays he pulled as i don't remember any being reported. I still can't see how anyone can cling to he won't turn heel, as a point to prove how he hasn't changed and is still the same old Shawn from before. I would have preferred for him to do a heel run myself as he was an awesome heel worker. But one of the issues with him and hogan, if you watch the new Shawn Michaels dvd was that Hogan had asked for Shawn to be the old Shawn in his interviews. (before the SummerSlam match) Shawn said are you sure if i do it, i wont hold back. Which Hogan said was fine, and then when he heard the interviews he complained about them. I don't think Shawn ever felt comfortable playing a heel since he came back. Due to the fact that he's aware of he's reputation and was trying to change the view of his peers. Also from interview's when he was doing DX the second time around, he did state his unease with some of the stuff he was asked to do. Yes he could of refused or quit if he felt that strongly about it, but how many people on here have quit there jobs because of something there boss has asked them to do. The one thing i would like to ask if anyone on this board has ever worked with him. As most of the evidence that you other to support you clams is rather thin. The one thing wrestlers do when they leave the company is to do shoot interviews and dish the dirt, has any one had a bad word to say about Shawn (since his come back). The only people who still have an issues appear to be people who have never met the guy or worked with him. Saying a guy is an asshole with out facts to support your clams just makes you look bad and you come across as out of touch with reality. Please put some thought in to why you hate someone and if the best you come up with is, he won't turn heel maybe its time to stop saying it. I'm not saying the guy should be exempted from examination or being criticized, but if you are going to do it put some facts and thought into it first. Also if he's more happy at this stage of his life playing a babyface in a fake sport which has no meaning on anything important in the real world. Why the hell not, if he has the power in his carer to make that choice. Just because Shelton Benjamin or Matt Hardy or whoever can't make that choice why is it Michaels problem.

 

Point 3

 

Not putting people over

 

Of the top of my head he put over.

 

Hunter

Batista

Edge

John Cena

Chris Benoit

Rey Misterio

Jeff Hardy

Mr Kennedy

Randy Orton

Chris Jericho

Undertaker

Kurt Angle

 

Hell he even lost twice to the Miz (and yes i know there's a difference between losing and putting someone over)

 

I think this shows he not afraid to put people over, and it not like he's not a draw anymore as this years wrestlemania will probably make more money than any other, just on the Shawn/Undertaker match. The point being is he shouldn't have been losing to just anyone in the wwe. He was one of the biggest stars there and him losing just to get someone over, if its the wrong guy only ends up hurting Shawn, and the guy still doesn't get over. Which is what happened with Mr Kennedy when it was tried with him. Up to the age of 44 on Wrestlemania when he had his last match (for now) he was consistently one of the better/best in and out of the ring performers' in the wwe.

 

I think that's the end of my rant for now, and i look forward to intelligent counterpoints to my post.

[Loss]

It's not worth having too much of an argument about, but the core of the argument is that when you talk constantly about being a Christian, you are held under a microscope. That expands beyond wrestling. There are plenty of wrestlers like Chris Jericho and Eddy Guerrero that have never been hounded about their problems because they don't draw so much attention to their faith. Really, doing so is an invitation for people to find any flaw they can.

[jdw]

 

Chris Jericho has/had problems?

 

I recall the arrest earlier in the year, but Jericho's end of it was pretty minor. The was the issue with GLAD a while back. The brawl with fans, though it looked like the fan(s) were jackasses there.

 

Unless I've totally forgotten something, I don't think Jericho has ever raised to the "Eddy" level of having problems... or even several levels below that.

 

John

[Bix]

Michaels didn't work the Hogan match in a way to make fun of him? Wow. I've never seen anyone interpret it that way. Even the staunchest of Michaels defenders admit it, though they praise him for it. Shawn Michaels has done plenty of matches in the overbumping style. The Hogan match went past that and into parody.

[Sean Liska]

Michaels didn't work the Hogan match in a way to make fun of him? Wow. I've never seen anyone interpret it that way. Even the staunchest of Michaels defenders admit it, though they praise him for it. Shawn Michaels has done plenty of matches in the overbumping style. The Hogan match went past that and into parody.

I really don't see it that way. I don't even remember anyone saying it after the show, or months after, until the YouTube compilation came out with just the bumps. There was nothing about it in the Observer or Torch. Meltz gave it ***1/2.

 

How did he even make Hogan look bad? He could have called plenty of spots to make him look old or slow. Instead he just bumped his ass off because he was working a major PPV main event with an immobile 55-year old man and big expectations existed for the match. Watch Hogan/Warrior-Perfect/Genius, then watch the Hogan/HBK match, and tell me what the difference is. Yeah, the bump off of the big boot looked ridiculous, but the rest of the match wasn't bad.

[Bix]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0BYSLdthvQ

 

The face smash into the turnbuckle is especially egregious.

[artDDP]

I don't recall the exact line from the DVD however Shawn said something like he was just trying to keep the match from sucking. And I'm almost certain Hulk loved every minute of that match.

[Sean Liska]

Here's the YouTube video that I swear started this whole theory.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0BYSLdthvQ

 

Again, I'll grant the bump off the big boot looked stupid. But what else is out of the ordinary?

 

The spot where Michaels gets his head thrown into the turnbuckle and then does a front somersault off the bottom rope is an old HBK favorite. The spot where he lays on the top ropes, gets kicked in the stomach, and goes flying crotch first onto the top rope is an old HBK favorite. The big Flair flip into the corner is an HBK favorite. Where is the scandal here?

[Sean Liska]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0BYSLdthvQ

 

The face smash into the turnbuckle is especially egregious.

Wow, you beat me to this by a few minutes.

 

But that is a classic HBK bump. I've even seen Edge try to steal it, poorly.

[Loss]

Chris Jericho has/had problems?

 

I recall the arrest earlier in the year, but Jericho's end of it was pretty minor. The was the issue with GLAD a while back. The brawl with fans, though it looked like the fan(s) were jackasses there.

 

Unless I've totally forgotten something, I don't think Jericho has ever raised to the "Eddy" level of having problems... or even several levels below that.

 

John

Not major problems, no. But if we was constantly talking about how he wouldn't do certain things in wrestling because of his Christianity and going on about how he's a changed man, people would pick at those issues, because he would make himself a lightning rod.

 

By wrestler terms, Shawn has been pretty close to saintly since returning, but the holier-than-thou demeanor tends to open one up to plenty of criticism.

[Loss]

I'm surprised no one has argued that he gave the rub of someone retiring him to the Undertaker instead of someone like Miz, MVP, or Jack Swagger who needed it more.

 

I guess you could argue that the DX-Spirit Squad feud was a burial of all the Spirit Squad guys, which it was, and Michaels was involved with that, although I'm not sure how much of that comes down to him.

[artDDP]

I think Vince only cares about merchandising/marketability now versus reliable star power down the road. DX was over so they get to beat the Spirit Squad every night. Vince rides every horse until it drops. He rushed to put the belt on Hogan in 2002 just to get a quick merchandise pop.

[Loss]

Booking to sell merchandise over tickets will almost always favor the status quo, will it not?

[artDDP]

Isn't that the way WWE is booked? Eddie Guerrero and Chris Jericho came in as heels but actually started to get over so Vince turned them face and cranked out the merchandise.

[tomk]

Let look at the facts Hogan came in with creative control to do the program with Shawn, Shawn agreed to work with Hogan. As it came to Summerslam hogan said he would work two more matches with Michaels, a cage match and then one more. But said he wouldn't put over Michaels in any of them, but he would do the finish in the cage the same as the Paul orndorff cage match (with hogan wining). This put Michaels back up, as it would any top star including -------- please put you own favourite wrestler in here as i put money on it they would all be equally pissed off by it

They are working Hulk Hogan. It is expected that this will happen when working Hogan.

 

Does Kamala complain that he never got a win against Undertaker?