The interesting Dave Meltzer posts thread

[sek69]

I'll grant that WM matches tend to get overrated because they're on such a big show, but to say HBK hasn't had any good matches since coming back is a bit much. In fact, it sounds like you still have a grudge against the guy for stuff he did in the 90s. I'm not a guy who sees much use for religion, but by every account I've seen he's legit changed since finding Jesus, but most people look at him sideways for the things he's done in his past - and I guess you can't really blame anyone for doing that. If anything, things seem to have come full circle and Shawn's largely HHH's flunky these days. It's not like it's 1997/8 and he needs to be threatened with physical violence to do a job, other than the Hogan deal, I haven't even heard of him putting up any fuss at all since his return.

[kjh]

Being HHH's "flunky" sort of suggests that he hasn't really changed that much at all other than he's no longer completely messed up on drugs, so he's less prone to unpredictable mood swings, temper tantrums and the like.

[El-P]

Shawn certainly had his share of good matches in the last decade. But *great* matches, I just don't see them. Despite haven't watched most of the pimped ones. But then again, Michaels has always been wildly overrated in my eyes. Funny to think that he's riding on HHH wave though, when you think back at HHH being the Bruti of the Clique... Times fly.

[S.L.L.]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Shawn justify the whole Hogan brouhaha by arguing it would go against his faith to work heel? I'm religious and pro-religion in general, but this is pretty clearly a guy using Jesus as a crutch to explain away bad behavior.

[kjh]

Not sure how correct that is, but there's also Shawn justifying his refusal to move to Smackdown due to his religious commitments, the *wink wink* DX segments where only Hunter is involved in any sexual innuendo while still being involved in a gimmick that encourages children to crotch chop and chant suck it, and the continuing lies and lack of contrition about Montreal.

[KrisZ]

He has Wednesday morning bible study hence why he hates working on Tuesdays.

[jdw]

I still think Shawn is a piece of shit. Thought it while he was champ in 1996/97. Thought it when he went out with the "career ender". Thought it when he came back.

 

John

 

Of course folks didn't think I was objective in my thinking. It's the old saw that if you don't love him as much as I do, you must hate him and are being shrill.

 

John

I wonder what would give people that impression.

 

That's talking about two different elements:

 

Shawn As A Human Being

Shawn As A HOF Candidate

 

I tend to think both Ric Flair and Hulk Hogan are pieces of shit as human beings.

 

I also helped "vote" them into the WON HOF. It really had no impact on how I judged them as candidates.

 

I think if one were to go back and read through the various Shawn Michaels 4 Teh WON HOF threads on Wrestling Classics, they'll find that I spent vastly less time on his shitty human character than I did on the rest of his candidacy. It really didn't rate that much to me when looking at him as a candidate.

 

That's why, as I posted above and some other have also mentioned, it always was a bit annoying that Dave rolled out the "unprofessional" aspect as the reason folks weren't voting for him. I, and I know some other voters, weren't voting for him for other things we saw lacking in his candidacy.

 

But it's easy to dismiss criticism as shrill, and try to hang your hat on the easy out rather than wider questions.

 

John

[Bob Morris]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Shawn justify the whole Hogan brouhaha by arguing it would go against his faith to work heel? I'm religious and pro-religion in general, but this is pretty clearly a guy using Jesus as a crutch to explain away bad behavior.

Maybe Shawn needs to have a long talk with Chris Jericho, who has made it no secret about his Christianity.

 

Then again, Jericho isn't a religious zealot. I have no idea if Shawn is one, but the fact that he refuses to play heel because of his religious belief does make you wonder.

[El-P]

Shawn refusing to play heel because of his "religious beliefs" is so fucking ridiculous on so many levels.

[kjh]

I'm wondering what hoops you jump through as a religious zealot when playing heel is against his faith, yet DX is OK. You need to jump through a few hoops to even work for the company. Which goes back to what S.L.L. said. He may or may not be a zealot, but he seems to use his faith to get what he wants (being booked as a babyface on the company's flagship show).

[ragemaster]

Wow from reading this thread maybe some of you have started your own religion, because you seem to have a zealot hate in everything Shawn Michaels does or says. Who cares if he rather play face than heel, what difference does that make to anyone. If Shawn had come in to your house and killed your family than i can understand why you may hate him. But all he did was to be an asshole in a business full of assholes, and since he came back from most accounts he been a different person. He goes to work and works harder than most in the company, puts over people when asked to, and then goes home. Also just because you follow a religion it doesn't mean you cant make some mistakes along the way.

[tomk]

Benoit killed his wife and kid, which is pretty asshole behavior. I think he worked hard and had lots of good matches, and was a top level performer for a long time.

 

Shawn Michaels seems like far less of an asshole than that clearly. The question isn't his assholedom.

 

The question is did he have a HOF quality career.

I don't think he had a HOF worthy career pre-comeback.

I've liked some of HBK's post comeback veteran legend work.

I liked some of the Baron's veteran legend work at the end of AWA too.

But I wouldn't think that level of work helps anyones HOF candidacy.

 

Post comeback HBK has headlined lots of shows in essentially the role of HHH's Beefcake, guy who is pushed and protected because he doesn't threaten anyone in power.

He's drawn well in that position.

I could see argument for him as HOF candidate based on his drawing ability as regular uppercard opponet.

I could also see making an argument for Tiger Singh based on same criteria.

[kjh]

I don't hate Shawn Michaels. I've enjoyed a lot of his work over the years. I just think that the talking point that Shawn Michaels is a completely changed person is a myth perpetuated by the fans and sheet writers who are marks for his work in the ring. Obviously Shawn will never be as big an asshole as Chris Benoit turned out to be, but Benoit went to work, worked much harder than Shawn does, put over more people than Shawn does and then went home, which just proves what you do in the ring is pretty irrelevant to whether someone is an asshole or not.

 

But as tomk says that's by the by. I actually think tomk overrates his drawing power. On his own post comeback, he wasn't a big merchandise seller and hasn't really drawn anything special outside of maybe his comeback match (but most attribute the success of that PPV to the pure sports build of Rock vs. Lesnar) and the Hogan match (but clearly Hogan was the bigger draw there). The first DX reunion match did really well, but it has been diminishing returns ever since then. DX merchandise is still pretty strong, but Cena is bigger, and Jeff and Rey are in the same ballpark.

[Loss]

It's interesting to me that they never gave Michaels a long run with the title. They gave him the cup of coffee in 2002, but I don't think he truly got over as more than a part-time act until he got the win over Jericho at Wrestlemania XIX. It was also around that time they had heels stop talking to him like an old guy whose time had passed, and they instead started treating him more like a current star.

 

If you recall, Jericho and HHH both did interviews in his first two programs back about he was washed up, old, sad and pathetic, etc., but no one really did them much after that.

[Log]

Anyone stuck Shawn in the 'ol Gordy test thingy?

[artDDP]

Watching this week's Smackdown I couldn't help but wonder, wouldn't Triple-H look much better with a textured, messy cut? I'm at a loss as to what could be done with Shawn Michaels' tresses, out of fear he'd look like late-90's Jerry Flynn.

[jdw]

Anyone stuck Shawn in the 'ol Gordy test thingy?

Did back before the comeback. It's moot not: he's in.

 

John

[Loss]

Dave on Gorilla Monsoon:

 

You didn't talk to irate wrestlers in the 80s who hated Monsoon killing their psychology.

 

These were the complaints I heard over and over:

 

You put on a submission to get heat and build drama, and he says the babyface will never submit. The worst part about it was--the booking mentality at the time was that top babyfaces never submit. So he's always right, and you waste your time trying to get heat with moves.

 

You do a near fall and don't hook the leg, and he calls you an idiot for not hooking the leg and teaches the fans not to pop for your near fall when the style you are told to do is only hook the leg for the real finish. The wording was that he is trying to show how smart he is by never selling your near falls, thus hurting your match.

 

Every kid loves their hometown commentator. Ed Whalen was godawful but when Bret Hart was a little kid, he was the first guy he heard and he still thinks Whalen and JR are the best ever (Bruce, who booked the territory and saw Ed kill his angles, had a 180 degree different opinion). Stu believed Ed was the best ever. There are people in Calgary who to this day think he was the best ever.

 

I just saw a guy who killed the heat of every heel in the territory. And if you talked with the heels in the territory, they thought the same thing.

[Bix]

I never noticed that the leg was only hooked at the finish in WWF matches back then. Huh.

[Strummer]

"You can't beat a man that way!"

 

I have this feeling Gorilla is somewhere out there chastising wrestlers for not hooking legs in some eternal cycle

 

I never noticed that the leg was only hooked at the finish in WWF matches back then. Huh.

I was thinking the exact same thing after reading that. Never noticed it even with time and perspective

[Strummer]

and it's nice to see Dave explaining *why* he didn't like Monsoon specifically instead of some vague reports of "well at the time nobody thought he was that good"

[Guest DaDirtiest]

I don't think he had a HOF worthy career pre-comeback.

How can you say this? Wasn't he the first ever triple crown champion in wwe? First ever grand slam champion?

Triple crown - intercontinental, world and tag champ

grand slam - intercontinental, world, european and tag champ

[Grimmas]

I don't think he had a HOF worthy career pre-comeback.

How can you say this? Wasn't he the first ever triple crown champion in wwe? First ever grand slam champion?

Triple crown - intercontinental, world and tag champ

grand slam - intercontinental, world, european and tag champ

 

Pedro Morales and Bret Hart both won the triple crown before Shawn.

[Indikator]

So basically heels told Dave how Monsoon undermined them and Dave had to agree with them. I haven't noticed it either yet, but if its true he has a very strong case

[KrisZ]

Gorilla did do that quite a bit on the Coliseum Video matches.