The interesting Dave Meltzer posts thread

[Al]

I think highly of Ramon/Michaels of Wrestlemania X, and I think its strength is that it had a strong storyline going into the show. Most ladder matches seem to lack that.

[Loss]

To piggyback Al's very good point, the storyline also provided a real reason that the ladder was needed: controversy over who was the rightful IC champ, with two guys walking around with title belts. I will say, however, that the Jericho/Michaels ladder match from this past October may have topped it. I thought that match was outstanding, and I am not usually a big fan of ladder matches.

[Marty]

I agree with Al's and Loss' reasons for praise for the WMX ladder match. I think, because of that, the most recent ladder match that the WWE has done that I enjoy watching for storyline purposes was Cena-Edge TLC from Unforgiven 2006. The set-up for the ladder stip was solid, as the match at Cena's hometown had taken place, now it was Edge's turn to not only "host" the next match, but have it under conditions he was used to and Cena wasn't. Cena did an excellent job not only with spots in the match but more importantly, selling the story of him being in his first ladder match. He would, at times on offense, appear uncertain at times as with respect to what to do next, especially at the end where he didn't know whether to climb the ladder or finish off Edge outside of the ring. His combined look (upon winning the match) of disgust with himself over going through that amount of violence as well as wondering why such a match has to take place in the first place really helped said story as well. Edge's work was solid, maybe his best in such a match, but it was Cena that made the match for me for those reasons.

 

Other than that match, and maybe a couple others that I'd have to think on, I agree with the consensus that ladder matches in general have not necessarily improved since that WMX one.

[S.L.L.]

Yeah, what you guys are saying. Great matches are built around great stories, and ladder matches are no different from any other type of match in that regard. But a lot of guys saw Michaels' performance at Mania X and learned the wrong lesson: that ladder matches were cool because you had something really tall to jump off of, instead of just creating a new way to tell a wrestling story that was a good way to shake things up every now and then. So we get a whole host of interchangeable and mostly forgettable ladder matches in the years that followed, but it's the originals that everyone remembers because they actually had the right idea. "Paling in comparison" to later ladder matches has nothing to do with it. Those later ladder matches being pale imitations that completely missed the point of the originals is more like it. It's like how comic fans still consider "Watchmen" and "The Dark Knight Returns" to be classics, but they roll their eyes at the generation of over-the-top anti-heroes those books inspired. Later artists latched onto the style of the originals, but completely missed the substance.

[kjh]

This is an awesome story:

 

In the 80s, nobody thought wrestling was real. There was a poll in the Charlotte Observer during the heyday and 1% of the audience thought wrestling was real. It was great because the day the poll was first announced, Ole Anderson predicted 96% would say wrestling was real.

[Ditch]

Then why were fans trying to literally kill heels? Or was that just the 1%...

[S.L.L.]

Then why were fans trying to literally kill heels? Or was that just the 1%...

If I had to guess, the 1% plus wrestlers exaggerating for dramatic effect.

[Loss]

I don't know that most people think about why they react the way they do when they do. My grandpa would constantly go on about how wrestling was fake while at the same time getting really mad and animated quite a few times when seeing live wrestling shows with him.

 

There is also the dynamic of people who think it's mostly fake, except for such-and-such angle, which this survey doesn't take into consideration.

[Bob Morris]

It's worth noting that some people who watch daytime soap operas actually think of the actors by the names of the characters they portray, to the point these fans, when seeing the actors outside of the studio, start referring to the actors by their characters' name and even start referring to their on-screen actions as if that's how they are in real life.

 

I think it's the same thing with some wrestling fans. They get so wrapped up in what they see that, even if they know it's just an act, they still think of the wrestler's character first and refer to the wrestler that way, even if in real life the wrestler doesn't act the same way as his character.

[khawk20]

It's about "regular" people getting caught up in the moment, which was what the wrestlers were striving for with their matches. A heel that gets stabbed at, shot at, spit on or generally attacked likely saw it as the highest praise they could get back then.

[sek69]

It's worth noting that some people who watch daytime soap operas actually think of the actors by the names of the characters they portray, to the point these fans, when seeing the actors outside of the studio, start referring to the actors by their characters' name and even start referring to their on-screen actions as if that's how they are in real life.

 

I think it's the same thing with some wrestling fans. They get so wrapped up in what they see that, even if they know it's just an act, they still think of the wrestler's character first and refer to the wrestler that way, even if in real life the wrestler doesn't act the same way as his character.

 

Not to mention it seems that at some point the wrestler ends up exactly like the character they portray (if they didn't already start out that way) all in the interest convincing people of the "realness" of it all.

[Jingus]

Also, while maybe only 1% of the population believed wrestling was real... you can bet that every single person who made up that 1% showed up to the matches, while the vast majority of the other 99% did not.

 

There really are people who think wrestling is real competition. Seriously. Not many, but they're out there. I've met them. Even been attacked myself once. What can I say? Some people are just fucking stupid and/or crazy.

[goc]

Then why were fans trying to literally kill heels? Or was that just the 1%...

Well, this poll was also just a regional Charlotte poll. You have to take the location into account, because there were other places where the percentage of people who thought it was real was likely higher. Maybe not MUCH higher, but I'd say it probably would have been higher had it been done somewhere in Louisiana or somewhere else in the Mid-South territory where the fans seemed to be much rougher than in JCP territory.

[jdw]

I suspect that the % in Charlotte would be *higher* than the Nation in the 80s. The population base in "Mid-South" and Louisiana doesn't have a pot to piss in relative to the rest of the country. People in New York, California, Florida, PA and IL... I'm willing to bet that a smaller % of them thought Wrestling Was Real than in Charlotte.

 

I went to Star Treak on Thursday night. Pretty decent crowd for an 8:45 showing where the movie starts at 9 and ends at 11. The hardest of the hardcore Trekkies and "Need To See A Blockbuster Movie Opening Week" had already gone.

 

100% if the people knew the movie as "fake".

 

A high % of it laughed at the jokes and clapped at the end to signal their enjoyment of it.

 

I've been to things that were "real" such as earlier round college baskeball tourney games that got far less Fan Reaction than a Fake Movie.

 

Fake things get reactions. Often times strong. Anyone here go to one of Springsteen's concerts in 1984-85 and see the reaction to Born In The USA? It's a fake song. Bruce wasn't in Nam. Bruce is singing as a character. No one in the crowd believes that Bruce was in Nam.

 

People in the business get wrapped up in thinking they're such great performers that the "marks" Believe It's Real.

 

The marks aren't that stupid.

 

It usually surprises me when smarter fans try to project onto the mass of fans that they're too stupid to know that what they're watching is fake, rather than they know it's fake, go along with it and enjoy it.

 

John

[goc]

It usually surprises me when smarter fans try to project onto the mass of fans that they're too stupid to know that what they're watching is fake, rather than they know it's fake, go along with it and enjoy it.

John

I wasn't trying to say this, I was simply saying considering how many stories there are about fans being out of control and trying to kill heels in the Mid-South territory, I would assume that the percentage of people who believed it was real would be higher than in Charlotte. I mean, I've never really heard Ric Flair or one of the other Horsemen tell a story about fans trying to kill them, or anyone else talk about something like that while they were in JCP.

[jdw]

Mark David Chapman isn't representative of 100% of John Lennon Fans, or 1%... or even 0.001%.

 

John

[Jingus]

I mean, I've never really heard Ric Flair or one of the other Horsemen tell a story about fans trying to kill them, or anyone else talk about something like that while they were in JCP.

By the time the 80s rolled around, no, not so many stories like that in most places. Mid-South was considered an aberration because of the sheer amount of fan violence, which didn't occur in most territories. And do remember that the main one telling those stories is Jim Cornette; because of his smark-friendly nature combined with his reputation for old-school encyclopaedic knowledge of all things wrestling, anything he says tends to be later repeated as gospel by legions of internet marks. Anyone else noticed that James E's various tales and opinions tend to be repeated an awful lot like that? Maybe it's just because he's done more shoot interviews and radio/podcast interviews than anyone else and has more of his sayings out there in the public consciousness than most guys, I dunno.

 

But fan violence still did happen on occasion, I'm sure some boozed-up morons thought it was a good idea to try and jump the Horsemen at some point. As long as guns weren't involved, it's possible that Flair & co. didn't think any of the stories were even worth repeating. The behaviour continued, it just got less prevalent over time as more people realized the work and audiences got (somewhat) more sophisticated. It never completely disappeared. Don't forget that even here and now in the 21st century, it seems like every year we get some doofus trying to hit the ring on Raw.

 

And like I said, even I have been attacked once. Admittedly, it was not a fearsome instigator: it was a elderly lady named Marge who was something of a local legend. Still, considering that it was only my second week as a manager, I was utterly unprepared to suddenly find a fan swinging a chain at my face with legitimate malice and injurious intent. Hell, I hadn't even done anything yet! I was running out to the ring, not heading back from the ring after having committed whatever depraved act that my chickenshit heel manager was doing that week. I'm glad it was an old lady; anyone more healthy probably would've knocked me the fuck out before I knew what happened. As it was, I barely got my hand up in time to block the chain being whipped at my eyes, and the impact raised a blood blister on my knuckle which stayed there for a full month. I grabbed the chain, wincing at the pain in my hand, and briefly considered my options: hit back? No, it was a fragile old woman, the kind you could possibly kill just by knocking over. So I merely unleashed a rather vile stream of profanity in her general direction which I've never ever called another woman before or since. Of course she didn't get banned, or even thrown out for the night; the penny-pinching indy promoters literally think that it's more important to get that particular six bucks every week than it is to help ensure their employees' safety. I won't even go into the one time I got conned into particpating a "a lucky fan whips the heel" raffle ticket sale. Also, I've been security or bystander to several other fan/wrestler confrontations, some a hell of a lot more serious than some demented old bitch with a dog collar chain. The attacks do still happen, believe me. There are some legitimately retarded and/or insane people providing the asses for those seats.

 

 

Here's a separate question: why do non-fans still think that all wrestling fans still believe it's real? I know every single one of you has at some point had a conversation with some smug fucker who, upon learning that you watch wrestling, snickered some variation on "Don't you know that crap's all fake?!" I mean, fuck, even goddamn Ready to Rumble admitted that it was a work with predetermined finishes and called spots. Why does this "stupid wrestling fans think it's real" meme still exist in popular society?

[KrisZ]

Ole Anderson got stabbed by a dude in I think in Spartanburg in like 1982 so those feelings were still prevalent. I wouldn't go by some newspaper poll to determine what the fans opinions were back then but by the actions of said fans in the buildings.

[kjh]

Of course, that's assuming every fan who ever attacked a wrestler thought it was real, which is flawed logic. There are plenty of stories of wrestlers being challenged by the local hard man who thought wrestling was completely phony.

[Jingus]

That's true too, but in those cases usually the local guy got his ass kicked and never came back. The majority of the attacks seemed to typically be from regular fans who attended the shows consistently, who one day just snapped and decided to jump on their least favorite heel.

[jdw]

There were times in the theater where I would have wanted to "jump" Peter Jackson for what he did to Lord of the Rings.

 

That doesn't mean that I thought his movies were "real", or the books that he based them on were "real".

 

I just happened to be pissed off at Heel Jackson for what he did to my favorite Face Books. Heck, I wasn't even liquored up when getting pissed off.

 

Perhaps this needs to be moved into the Mythbusters thread:

 

"The Majority of Wrestling Marks thought Wrestling Was Real back in the Good Old Days."

 

John

[MikeCampbell]

My wife once related a story to me that an aspring musican landed a role on Beverly Hills 90210 playing Donna's abusive boyfriend, and that he wound up quitting because his music gigs would frequently feature people yelling at him to 'stop hitting Donna.' Maybe they thought it was real?

[Boondocks Kernoodle]

This thread reminded me of something I saw on The History of WWE just yesterday, an incident I hadn't heard of before:

 

WCW @ Dallas, TX - Sportatorium - September 5, 1992

During the show an elderly man, accompanied by his personal nurse, attempted to shoot Jake Roberts. The man had attended shows at the Sportatorium for 30 years without incident

[Indikator]

False:

The majority of Wrestling Marks thought Wrestling was real back in the good old days.

 

True:

The majority of Non Wrestling Fans think that Wrestling Marks still think Wrestling is real.

[Bix]

There were times in the theater where I would have wanted to "jump" Peter Jackson for what he did to Lord of the Rings.

 

That doesn't mean that I thought his movies were "real", or the books that he based them on were "real".

 

I just happened to be pissed off at Heel Jackson for what he did to my favorite Face Books. Heck, I wasn't even liquored up when getting pissed off.

That's not in the same universe as attacking a heel. Attacking the Big Bad Wolf during a performance of Little Red Riding Hood would be comparable.