jdw Posted May 18, 2009 Report Share Posted May 18, 2009 That's not in the same universe as attacking a heel. Attacking the Big Bad Wolf during a performance of Little Red Riding Hood would be comparable. People are nuts. Doesn't mean they think BBW and LRRH are "real". Or that one nuts attacking the BBW means that everyone in the theater, or even the majority, or even 5%, thought it was "real". It's a bit like Benoit: Benoit was a fucking insane juiced head pill popping wrestler who killed his wife and kid. It doesn't mean wrestlers are going to kill their wives and kids. It doesn't mean that all wrestlers are pill popping juice heads. It doesn't mean that all wrestlers are insane. There are plenty of insane, pill popping, juiced head wrestlers over the past 30 years. Not a lot of them have killed their wives and kids. People seem intent on finding "proof" that Wrestling Marks Think It's Real. We know why people in the business are intent - it gives them a hardon to think that wrestlers are such great performers that they make people "believe it's real". John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jkeats Posted May 18, 2009 Report Share Posted May 18, 2009 My wife once related a story to me that an aspring musican landed a role on Beverly Hills 90210 playing Donna's abusive boyfriend, and that he wound up quitting because his music gigs would frequently feature people yelling at him to 'stop hitting Donna.' Maybe they thought it was real? Yeah this kind of stuff happens all the time. It's so odd. One of my friends is the daughter of the late Gordon Jump (Mr. Carlson from WKRP in Cincinatti). He was in one of the more famous Different Strokes episodes in which he plays a child molester who tries to make a move on Arnold and Dudley. She was telling me that they basically got ostracized from their church because of that episode. "If you can play that so well on TV, there must be a part of you that is like that", was what he was told. People can know that it's "not real" but still have a visceral reaction to it. My grandmother would swear up and down that wrestling was fake but would freak out when a heel used a steel chair ("See?! See! I don't like it when they do that!") and called Stephanie McMahon a slut. I come from a classy folk I think jdw had great points. It's why I never bought the "wrestling needs kayfabe" arguments. You can know something isn't "real" but still get caught up in it. The Dark Knight wasn't a documentary. I know Bale and Ledger were actors but I was thinking that they were Batman and Joker while I was watching it. If it's done well, then you buy into it...simple as that. We know why people in the business are intent - it gives them a hardon to think that wrestlers are such great performers that they make people "believe it's real". That notion is definitely prevalent. It's that "no one can do what we do" attitude and it drives me nuts sometimes. No one has any right to know what goes on behind the scenes or can have any opinion on wrestling without having set up rings, sold programs, did jobs, took a bump...etc. I guarantee all of the wrestlers that are sports fans pick up the sports page and bitch about the stupid moves that their favorite team is making without ever having thrown a pitch or a pass. Or they go to the movies and talk about how an actor sucked or the writing was bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted May 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 19, 2009 Every fan who ever attacked a heel was just crazy? Nobody was dense enough to decide that attacking the more evil competitors in these real wrestling matches was just the right thing to do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted May 19, 2009 Report Share Posted May 19, 2009 Just about every fan/wrestler altercation I ever saw at a show involved a mark attacking a heel. So are most if not all of the examples I can think of with a fan hitting the ring in the WWE or other big-league shows. Draw whatever conclusions you will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted May 19, 2009 Report Share Posted May 19, 2009 Every fan who ever attacked a heel was just crazy? Nobody was dense enough to decide that attacking the more evil competitors in these real wrestling matches was just the right thing to do? Who knows. They could just be boozed up. They could be nuts. They could "believe it's real". They could just see it as an opportunity to act out a little inner demon, like people during a riot. Again - who knows. People want to make the leap that all people who attack heels "believe it's reel". I don't think there's any evidence for something that broad, anymore than thinking they're crackpot fans. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted May 19, 2009 Report Share Posted May 19, 2009 Just about every fan/wrestler altercation I ever saw at a show involved a mark attacking a heel. So are most if not all of the examples I can think of with a fan hitting the ring in the WWE or other big-league shows. Draw whatever conclusions you will. Which is kind of funny since all the recent big league all cop to it being Fake. And have for close to 20 years now. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted May 19, 2009 Report Share Posted May 19, 2009 Just about every fan/wrestler altercation I ever saw at a show involved a mark attacking a heel. So are most if not all of the examples I can think of with a fan hitting the ring in the WWE or other big-league shows. Draw whatever conclusions you will. The only exception to this I can think of is one of my favorite wrestling moments ever. On RAW in 1999, Jericho had just interrupted The Rock (not the debut promo, but the one two months later). Jericho: "The Jerichoholics are mad, Rock, and they aren't gonna take it anymore" (paraphrased) A guy dressed like Jericho comes out of the crowd to attack the Rock and has to be restrained by security ... Jericho: "Case in point!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Log Posted May 19, 2009 Report Share Posted May 19, 2009 I don't think that most recent fan run-ins have anything to do with kayfabe. Alcohol is a much bigger factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted May 20, 2009 Report Share Posted May 20, 2009 That's not in the same universe as attacking a heel. Attacking the Big Bad Wolf during a performance of Little Red Riding Hood would be comparable. I'm not sure that's quite a fair comparison. Does the Big Bad Wolf pretend to still be the Big Bad Wolf after the show when in front of the public who have just watched the show? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted May 20, 2009 Report Share Posted May 20, 2009 Wrestling's weird blurring of the lines between fantasy and reality has to have something to do with it. I don't think anyone was attacking the guy who played Emperor Palpatine on the street for being such an asshole in Return of the Jedi, even though at that time people were still trying to stab wrestlers in Louisiana on a regular basis. Of course lack of sobriety, or intelligence, or sanity, or some combination thereof are the catalyzing factors in causing some idiot to think he can beat up a giant muscular dude 50 pounds heavier than himself. But like I said earlier, in damn near every example you can name of wrestlers being attacked, it was almost always a fan going after a heel. We can argue over what that proves, sure, but obviously it indicates that these particular fans viewed wrestling differently than other fictional entertainment media. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Cooke Posted May 20, 2009 Report Share Posted May 20, 2009 "There were times in the theater where I would have wanted to "jump" Peter Jackson for what he did to Lord of the Rings. That doesn't mean that I thought his movies were "real", or the books that he based them on were "real". I just happened to be pissed off at Heel Jackson for what he did to my favorite Face Books. Heck, I wasn't even liquored up when getting pissed off." The example of this in terms of wrestling would be, "HHH just pinned Austin in 5 minutes to win the WWF title. I'm pissed because it is obvious that HHH is using his power to run Austin out of town." A fan getting aggravated by a wrestler who is heeling it up would better compare to someone getting worked up over a movie/TV show, having the knowledge that it is scripted and fake in the back of their heads, but the material being so compelling that they lose sight of reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted July 5, 2009 Report Share Posted July 5, 2009 Interesting that this wasn't mentioned in the Observer: Jim Cornette was very visibly mad at the last set of tapings over the direction of the Abyss/Dr. Stevie angle and wasn't shy about voicing his opinion. He usually doesn't care because it's not his company, and doesn't get worked up even though he can't come to grips with the idea that Jeff should know better, but somehow doesn't. But apparently where they are going with the angle crossed the line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted July 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 5, 2009 What did TNA do this time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted July 5, 2009 Report Share Posted July 5, 2009 It doesn't sound like the problem is what TNA did at the last set of tapings, but what they plan to do in the future. Maybe Russo is planning another fake pregnancy angle or something similar with Lauren? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted July 5, 2009 Report Share Posted July 5, 2009 The thing about wrestling that makes it different is that the heels are supposed to provoke the crowd, so it's not surprising that sometimes that causes some people to try to run in the ring. My favorite two examples are the guy who tried to climb the cage in that Savage-DiBiase match and security (and Virgil) had to pull the guy off. I've been watching DiBiase matches on 24/7 and he gets amazing heel heat by just standing in the ring. I can see how the idea of him winning the title could drive someone who's already worked up to try to take matters into their own hands. The other example is when the nWo first formed after Hogan turned heel. That one fan made it in the ring and had to be subdued by (I think) Nash until security could take the guy away. That tended to happen a lot in WCW where fans would make it into the ring and either the wrestlers or the refs had to stop the guy until someone could get him. I'm surprised no one in WCW ever got hurt by a fan considering seemingly anyone could run into the ring for a good amount of time before anyone would stop them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rovert Posted July 5, 2009 Report Share Posted July 5, 2009 It doesn't sound like the problem is what TNA did at the last set of tapings, but what they plan to do in the future. Maybe Russo is planning another fake pregnancy angle or something similar with Lauren? Stevie threatened to more or less rape Lauren if Abyss doesn’t show up to therapy they cut back to Tenay who just says so I guess Abyss has to accept Stevie proposition for next week then swiftly moves on. With no other mention or concern that Abyss is holding Lauren captive and is threatening to rape her for the rest of the show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Death From Above Posted July 5, 2009 Report Share Posted July 5, 2009 The thing about wrestling that makes it different is that the heels are supposed to provoke the crowd, so it's not surprising that sometimes that causes some people to try to run in the ring. My favorite two examples are the guy who tried to climb the cage in that Savage-DiBiase match and security (and Virgil) had to pull the guy off. I've been watching DiBiase matches on 24/7 and he gets amazing heel heat by just standing in the ring. I can see how the idea of him winning the title could drive someone who's already worked up to try to take matters into their own hands. The other example is when the nWo first formed after Hogan turned heel. That one fan made it in the ring and had to be subdued by (I think) Nash until security could take the guy away. That tended to happen a lot in WCW where fans would make it into the ring and either the wrestlers or the refs had to stop the guy until someone could get him. I'm surprised no one in WCW ever got hurt by a fan considering seemingly anyone could run into the ring for a good amount of time before anyone would stop them. I'm sure this has come up before, that at one point WCW started putting plants in the crowd to rush the ring from time to time because they thought it "looked cool" on TV. Obviously that only encouraged other non-plants to follow suit. Really not the best of ideas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Posted July 5, 2009 Report Share Posted July 5, 2009 WCW even had a fan rush the ring during the finish of Hogan/Piper at Starrcade '96. That was a pretty big blemish and I'm surprised it doesn't come up often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.L.L. Posted July 6, 2009 Report Share Posted July 6, 2009 I am just kinda surprised that Russo is booking potential rape as a heel move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Morris Posted July 6, 2009 Report Share Posted July 6, 2009 Supposedly Abyss is the one coming up with his own storylines. Whether that is the case or not, it seems every time you hear about some horrible booking/storyline decision in TNA, it often involves the storyline with Abyss. And when I watched Impact last Thursday, I can honestly say that, if you removed the Abyss storyline, the quality of Impact would improve 10 times over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted July 7, 2009 Report Share Posted July 7, 2009 So not only Abyss is a terrible wrestler but he's also a terrible booker/writer? This guy gets the cake of all cake to me. I think I enjoy Tiger Jeet Singh more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted July 7, 2009 Report Share Posted July 7, 2009 In his defense, Abyss's storylines have never made one little bit of sense, and this includes long before he was on the booking committee. He's gotta be the only world champion in recent memory to somehow win the belt on a DQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted July 7, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 7, 2009 In his defense, Abyss's storylines have never made one little bit of sense, and this includes long before he was on the booking committee. He's gotta be the only world champion in recent memory to somehow win the belt on a DQ.Harley Race beat Dusty Rhodes to win the NWA title via DQ. The actual finish didn't get much magazine/TV coverage, but Dusty was defending against Race in a "DQ rule waved" match (previously scheduled as Race defending but the stip was kept for contractual reasons) and got DQed to lose. Kinda the opposite of Al Hayes vs Dory Funk Jr where the magazines made up a screwjob that didn't exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Posted July 7, 2009 Report Share Posted July 7, 2009 Can you explain that one Bix? I've read the magazine explanation but not what actually happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomk Posted July 7, 2009 Report Share Posted July 7, 2009 Fuck these long assed threads mean I miss pages and pages of these things and find interesting things pages back but Yeah, what you guys are saying. Great matches are built around great stories, and ladder matches are no different from any other type of match in that regard. But a lot of guys saw Michaels' performance at Mania X and learned the wrong lesson: that ladder matches were cool because you had something really tall to jump off of, instead of just creating a new way to tell a wrestling story that was a good way to shake things up every now and then. So we get a whole host of interchangeable and mostly forgettable ladder matches in the years that followed, but it's the originals that everyone remembers because they actually had the right idea. "Paling in comparison" to later ladder matches has nothing to do with it. Those later ladder matches being pale imitations that completely missed the point of the originals is more like it. It's like how comic fans still consider "Watchmen" and "The Dark Knight Returns" to be classics, but they roll their eyes at the generation of over-the-top anti-heroes those books inspired. Later artists latched onto the style of the originals, but completely missed the substance. “Only a bitter little adolescent boy could confuse realism with pessimism."- Flex Mentallo Neither Watchemn or Dark Night are particularly great stories. The gimmick worked for Watchmen and Dark Knight. And demonstrated to generations to come that gimmick will appeal to adolescent boys and get you farther quicker. Both Hall and Michaels have been in better matches than the Mania ladder match, matches that told better stories. But gimmick is memorable. Jeff Hardy and Edge are both multi time world champs. People still regularly talk about Shelton Benjamin’s huge upside. People took the correct lessons from both Watchmen and the Mania ladder match. The gimmick will get you far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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