"He's ambitiously stupid" - Why Scott Keith's new book is scary bad

[MikeCampbell]

Offhand, that was the one part of Todd Martin's review of the book where you really thought to yourself "Oh my God, Todd Martin is more of a professional than this guy". Lifting entire match reviews that you can get for free on his site - including one of the first Hell in the Cell match, which he pegged at ****1/2 stars or thereabouts and called the match of the year, when he included reviews of ***** matches from earlier the same year, and not bothering to go back and change anything before putting them in the book - was just an astounding bit of anti-genius.

Slightly off topic here (although I'll get back to it), but what's the deal with Todd Martin? I remember that bunch of people used to rip on him over at Chris Coey's old message board, but aside from his review of Keith's book, I'd never seen anything else from him.

 

And yeah, Keith's laziness in regards to updating or changing anything has always astounded me. I couldn't believe that he included in the book that Austin was supposed to win the WWF title at IYH Final Four. Meltzer had shot that down ages ago and Keith was even aware because he'd commented on it saying that he thought that he'd read about that in the WON. A couple of years ago he reviewed the WWE DVD of the Road Warriors, commenting that the match they won the WWF Tag Titles from the Nasty Boys in was a good match. He reviewed it and said they had no chemistry and gave it something like **. When I asked him about it, he said that he remembered liking it and then didn't when he watched it. When I asked him why he didn't just re-word his original comment after watching the match, the silence was deafening.

[Loss]

Todd Martin not knowing things at times doesn't bother me. Lots of people don't know things, and I've been wrong more than once, and probably will be many more times. There are lots of things I don't know too. I think it's more the demeanor of presenting himself as an expert when he's just regurgitating Meltzer talking points. He's much better than Dan Wahlers, though.

 

On a side note, one thing that bugs me is that he seems to only talk about what is or is not going to drive buyrates. He's a fan who never acts like it. That has nothing to do with calling something good or bad. I have no problem with people who are generally negative on most of what they watch if they're making valid points. But with business talk, some of that talk is fine, but why not also talk about what he likes personally and doesn't like? Talking about the business side of wrestling and making your entire RAW review complaining about giving away big matches on free TV (which I acknowledge is a problem with WWE at times, but if you enjoy WWE, YOU BENEFIT FROM IT) and complaining that harmless segments do nothing to draw money is frustrating.

[tigerpride]

Does anyone have a link to Todd Martin's infamous review? I'd love to read it

[Boondocks Kernoodle]

I used to have a link to it from DVDVR, but since they deleted the old "non-stick" wrestling folder in an empty gesture which did nothing to improve the quality of discussion there, it's gone now. And Google gives me nothing. Bummer.

[Boondocks Kernoodle]

A-ha! Here you go:

 

http://web.archive.org/web/20030516112557/...lt.asp?aID=7266

[Bix]

I will say that I agree with Keith's reply about the "Ultimate Warrior got free reign" issue: Vince aired the really bizarre "Destrucity" segments that had nothing to do with anything other than promoting Warrior as a religious leader, as well as ads for Ultimate University. That was quite the coup for Warrior.

[Boondocks Kernoodle]

Those actually aired? I saw that one they showed as an extra on the Self-Destruction DVD, but I don't remember them airing on TV back then. But I'm probably wrong.

 

I do remember them plugging the comic book and running ads for WU in WWF Magazine.

[Bix]

Yes, they aired on TV.

 

The Destrucity segment that sticks out the most was so amazingly stupid that it was really awesome:

 

In front of a plain white background (not a proper set), an older blind, black man is running his news stand. A younger, thuggish looking white guy pays for a newspaper with a single and says that he paid with a twenty. The blind guy immediately gives him change for a twenty as the thug sounds surprised and starts to backpedal, saying he was wrong. The magical (blind) black man proclaims that "anyone who would steal from a blind man must need the money more than I do!" Cue the Destrucity title card.

 

From some site's article on Warrior:

 

Warrior’s return also introduced America to “Destrucity

his home grown religion, dispensing his patented “Warrior Wisdom” to the masses. A smattering of Destrucity vignettes aired on WWF programming in mid-1996. The one I remember featured a punk who was about to rob a blind man, only to get cold feet. When another punk queried Mr. Blindy, he said that if Punk #1 needed money that badly, then Punk #1 needed it more than he, himself. Our nation was fortunate indeed that Destrucity was on hand to tell our youth that stealing from the blind is wrong. Or maybe that it’s okay to steal from the blind if you need money. It kinda sent mixed signals. Personally, I haven’t stolen from the blind since. Mind you, I still sucker-punch the deaf, shave the eyebrows off coma patients, and hunt midgets in the wild for sport. Hey, they never made Destrucity vignettes telling me not to. Blame Warrior.

[Cox]

Yes, they aired on TV.

 

The Destrucity segment that sticks out the most was so amazingly stupid that it was really awesome:

 

In front of a plain white background (not a proper set), an older blind, black man is running his news stand. A younger, thuggish looking white guy pays for a newspaper with a single and says that he paid with a twenty. The blind guy immediately gives him change for a twenty as the thug sounds surprised and starts to backpedal, saying he was wrong. The magical (blind) black man proclaims that "anyone who would steal from a blind man must need the money more than I do!" Cue the Destrucity title card.

See, what I don't get from all of this is, how could a blind man know the difference between change for a $20 and change for any other bill anyway? I don't know if the texture of the bills is any different, but wouldn't a one, five, and ten all feel the same?

[Bix]

Yes, they aired on TV.

 

The Destrucity segment that sticks out the most was so amazingly stupid that it was really awesome:

 

In front of a plain white background (not a proper set), an older blind, black man is running his news stand. A younger, thuggish looking white guy pays for a newspaper with a single and says that he paid with a twenty. The blind guy immediately gives him change for a twenty as the thug sounds surprised and starts to backpedal, saying he was wrong. The magical (blind) black man proclaims that "anyone who would steal from a blind man must need the money more than I do!" Cue the Destrucity title card.

See, what I don't get from all of this is, how could a blind man know the difference between change for a $20 and change for any other bill anyway? I don't know if the texture of the bills is any different, but wouldn't a one, five, and ten all feel the same?

 

He couldn't tell the difference from feeling the bills. The idea was that the customers are usually honest but he could tell from thuggish guy's demeanor what was happening.

 

No, I don't know why he didn't go the "exact change only" route.

[MikeCampbell]

I dunno, maybe it's just a matter of interpretation, but plugging the school and comic, and airing a few vignettes doesn't equate to 'free reign' to me. Keith was making it sound like Warrior got total creative control when he came back (which is probably how Todd interpreted it too). If anything, Vince plugging the school and comic sounds to me like Vince was probably getting a cut of the proceeds from them.

[Bix]

I doubt that the wrestling school would make enough money that he cut Vince in.

 

It's not the best description, but with Warrior being given free ad time on the biggest shows on cable to promote his wrestling school and attempt at starting a religion, I can see why he used it.

 

The debut issue of the comic was polybagged with an issue of WWF Magazine, so it was mutually beneficial to promote it at the beginning (sell more issues of the magazine than normal while trying to hook people on the comic).

 

Does anyone know if the claim they made about the comic's debut being the highest selling single issue of a comic in history was an outright lie or if it was partially true with the magazine sales thrown in?

[Boondocks Kernoodle]

Didn't they also give the comic away at live events?

[Tim Evans]

When Sullivan debuted as The Equalizer at the COC special with Rude, were they the main event? That's the closest that I can recall, unless SKeith counts coming to the ring with Hogan as being in the main event.

Equalizer/Rude vs Sting/Hawk you mean? That wasn't the main event, Vader/Bulldog was. Wasn't Dave in the main event for Dave/Hogan/Sting vs Faces of Fear at that one clash?

[Ray]

My favorite Keith-ism is still his claim that Kurt Angle taught Undertaker how to work in 2005.

[MikeCampbell]

When Sullivan debuted as The Equalizer at the COC special with Rude, were they the main event? That's the closest that I can recall, unless SKeith counts coming to the ring with Hogan as being in the main event.

Equalizer/Rude vs Sting/Hawk you mean? That wasn't the main event, Vader/Bulldog was. Wasn't Dave in the main event for Dave/Hogan/Sting vs Faces of Fear at that one clash?

 

Clash XXIX. Yeah they were the main event. So that's one for Evad and one for Shockmaster.

[Boondocks Kernoodle]

My favorite Keith-ism is still his claim that Kurt Angle taught Undertaker how to work in 2005.

I think my favorite was when he said that Savage should have defeated Prince Iaukea for the TV title in March '97 so he and DDP would have a title to feud over, as though 1) The best way to add heat to a PPV main event is to add the promotion's least important singles title into the mix and 2) The best way to have DDP break out of the midcarder pack was to feud over said inconsequential belt.

[MikeCampbell]

I've got a tie for my favorite Keith-ism.

 

Either when he basically ripped apart Flair vs. Luger from either WrestleWar '90 or Capitol Combat, and then gave it **** because Flair could 'wrestle a broomstick and get ****' Or his review of WM XIX where he said that Shawn's on-again off-again selling of his back hurt the match a lot (true) and then proceeded to still give it ****

[tigerpride]

Yea, I was going to point out how it always bothers me when he'll be just rip a match to shreds and then give it ***

[kjh]

I dunno, maybe it's just a matter of interpretation, but plugging the school and comic, and airing a few vignettes doesn't equate to 'free reign' to me. Keith was making it sound like Warrior got total creative control when he came back (which is probably how Todd interpreted it too). If anything, Vince plugging the school and comic sounds to me like Vince was probably getting a cut of the proceeds from them.

"Free reign" may be going a bit far, but he strolled back into the promotion after leaving on bad terms 3 years ago, got paid more in one night than the highest paid superstar made in the previous year, and forced the plan of having a competitive 10 minute back and forth match with Hunter in his return changed to a 90 second squash match by threatening to walk out. He had an insanely sweet deal until he screwed it all up by pushing Vince too far by no showing some house show dates when they were arguing about the WWF using one of his trademarks for an ad campaign without his permission and without compensation.

[Bob Morris]

Really, what it boils down to with Keith is his choice of words are poor. When he talks about Shockmaster being made a main eventer, he no doubt was basing in on the fact that Shockmaster was being placed in War Games when people didn't know who he was, and thus the idea should be that somebody who you don't know the identity of should turn out to be a major deal. I would imagine the plan was to make him a top attraction, but because of what happened with his introduction, that was the end of that.

 

Dave Sullivan, seemed more like somebody who they made Hogan's "number one Hulkamaniac" in the hopes he'd get the rub and it didn't work. Then again, one could argue that there were better options than Dave as far as somebody Hogan could give the rub to.

 

I agree with those who say that Warrior, more or less, had free reign. Vince basically gave up a lot in return to get him to come back and he returned for barely a six-month period before he was gone, and most of the stuff Warrior was involved with didn't draw heat at a level that justified what Vince was giving him.

[Loss]

On a side note, imagine how different wrestling would be if Steve Austin's pitch to become Hulk Hogan's brother would have been used by WCW. I only thought of that because what they ended up doing with Dave Sullivan wasn't terribly different than what Austin wanted to do. Not the exact same, but very similar.

[tomk]

Slightly off topic here (although I'll get back to it), but what's the deal with Todd Martin? I remember that bunch of people used to rip on him over at Chris Coey's old message board, but aside from his review of Keith's book, I'd never seen anything else from him.

Never read much of Cooey’s board so don’t know what exactly his objections were. But I assume that you can still find old Martin articles at the Observer web site. Pretty sure you can find his posts at wrestlingclassics. He was easily as consistently dumb as Dan Whalers.

 

Quick recent history lesson:

 

Times have changed but remember that at one point people understood that the observer was the preeminent name in wrestling reporting and felt Meltzer was watering down his brand by allowing himself to be represented by an army of Scott Keiths. This all took place at the same time that there was an increase in numbers of people who were on the selection committee for WON HOF. People who thought that there was value in historical projects like the Hall of fame saw that get diluted as suddenly your army of Keith’s was given votes (as “reporters”.) Meltzer says and does lots of goofy dumb shit but allowing your Whalers,Martins, etc to represent him was considered to be embarrassing.

 

This is all recent history (less than six years ago).

 

And really in today’s world of Joe Babinsack level stupidity, it is hard not to be nostalgic for the simpler times of Todd Martin stupidity.

[Jingus]

The biggest problem with Martin is just that he rarely strays beyond playing captain obvious in most of his work. He tends to recite the exact same opinions as any thousand other smarks without much of his own original thought. Which is why I enjoyed guys like, say, Chris Hyatte; no matter how arrogantly pretentious and batshit insane he was, at least it was his pretension and insanity and not just something he was copying from the forums.

 

Heh, Coey's board, been a little while since I thought about that. He and I had some dumb arguments over at TSM when I was a young noob, and he was a dick to me ever since, not like that's much different from how he treated most everyone else. I saw the Spidertwist boards, saw some good discussion, and just signed up under my shoot name instead of the same stupid moniker I use everywhere else. I just participated calmly in the topics at hand, so it took him like a year and a half to figure out it was me. And when he did, he instantly IP banned me for no reason whatsoever except we'd had ill words like two years prior.

[MikeCampbell]

Heh, Coey's board, been a little while since I thought about that. He and I had some dumb arguments over at TSM when I was a young noob, and he was a dick to me ever since, not like that's much different from how he treated most everyone else. I saw the Spidertwist boards, saw some good discussion, and just signed up under my shoot name instead of the same stupid moniker I use everywhere else. I just participated calmly in the topics at hand, so it took him like a year and a half to figure out it was me. And when he did, he instantly IP banned me for no reason whatsoever except we'd had ill words like two years prior.

I remember your rather famous post on TSM 'A Message to Jubuki' where you called him out for being a dick to you, and others on the board. Whatever happened to him anyway? He used to post at DVDVR and a bit over at tOA, but I haven't seen anything from him in ages.