Wrestling Myth Busters

[Ditch]

Kojima may have been in All Japan but c'mon.

In post Mutoh All Japan, Mossman had adjusted to work more New Japanish.

Who would be the All Japan guys in MLW who represented King's Road? Steve Williams?

I'm not saying that the crew going to MLW were anything like heirs of Baba, but neither were they the heirs of Inoki.

[Jkeats]

Here are the Rich/Sawyer Omni matches

 

5/3/82

10/3/82

10/17/82 = No DQ Falls Count Anywhere

2/6/83

7/17/83 = Texas Death

10/23/83 = Last Battle of Atlanta

 

They wrestled in quite a few matches around the horn in that 17 month period plus had a few TV matches such as 2/6/82, 4/17/82, among a few others.

 

They had some real wars in Chattanooga which is a spot that a lot of the Atlanta fans would drive up to see because those shows had a reputation for being somewhat wilder.

 

5/8/82

5/22/82 = No DQ

6/5/82 = Steel Cage

7/24/82

7/31/82 = Coal Miners Glove

8/21/82

9/4/82 = Steel Cage

9/3/83

 

They had a lot of tag matches as well so they always had a feud but they also had other feuds as well to keep fresh.

Thanks for that Kris. It's really interesting because on the GCW TV they barely mention these matches at all, even in the hype. But it looks like they had a more continuous feud outside the Omni. There were large stretches in Atlanta where they weren't facing off. It doesn't seem any different than any other long term feud.

[jdw]

For a curveball on "strong style", in the WON for ages Dave referred to UWF-style as "strong style". Long before people coined the goofy term "Internet Wrestling Community". One probably can find Dave using the term for UWF-style back in the 80s.

 

Of course Dave was wrong on that, and in hindsight it' strange to think his Japanese sources didn't correct him on it. I don't know if Dave saw the error until 1996 around the time of G1. I've got the program for the G1 series from that year laying around here somewhere, and I'm pretty sure Strong Style is on the cover and got a double take from Dave.

 

Less clear on how he got confused with the phrase when UWF 2.0 got formed. I don't think he used the phrase for UWF 1.0, but it's been a while since I read his coverage of that.

 

Anyway...

 

On New Japan's use of it, I wouldn't get too worked up about it. I frankly think we could put too much stock in Kings Road/Royal Road as being a clearly defined style of wrestling. One one side you got Abby jabbing people with a fork and Terry rolling around on the floor to wrap himself up in streamers. On the other side, you've got the 1976 Baba-Robinson or Jumbo-Terry matches. One phrase fits all? Not worth getting to worked up about.

 

I think using the phrases are perfectly cool. I suspect if we were more familar with them back in 1996/97 you would have seen people using them left and right like "Japlucha" or whatever the hell people tossed around for MPro. Have fun with them.

 

John

[Guest The 3H's]

Was Bret a bigger draw then Flair?

 

Did Bret DVD's and Books outsell Flairs?

[S.L.L.]

Anyway...

 

On New Japan's use of it, I wouldn't get too worked up about it. I frankly think we could put too much stock in Kings Road/Royal Road as being a clearly defined style of wrestling. One one side you got Abby jabbing people with a fork and Terry rolling around on the floor to wrap himself up in streamers. On the other side, you've got the 1976 Baba-Robinson or Jumbo-Terry matches. One phrase fits all? Not worth getting to worked up about.

 

I think using the phrases are perfectly cool. I suspect if we were more familar with them back in 1996/97 you would have seen people using them left and right like "Japlucha" or whatever the hell people tossed around for MPro. Have fun with them.

 

John

Yeah, I have long been of the understanding that "Strong Style" and "King's Road" were just their respective promotions' way of saying "Sports Entertainment". All three are just terms coined by wrestling promotions to refer to their take on pro wrestling to separate it/put it above every other form, but the phrases themselves don't really mean anything. Not that there aren't certain stylistic similarities that tend to form amongst wrestlers within a single promotion, or that some of those similarities don't tend to stick within that promotion over long periods of time, but I think assuming these names were given with any real major overarching stylistic vision in mind is probably giving crazy wrestling promoters too much credit.

[ohtani's jacket]

Strong style was a fighting style, not a booking style. It's not entirely wrong to call shoot style promotions "strong style," as that was the original intent of the UWF.

 

You have to remember that New Japan is a company that had several different bookers over the years, whereas All Japan was consistently booked by Baba up until his death. The All Japan style that you're talking about was coined in the early 90s and was a stylistic shift away from what Baba felt he could no longer book (i.e. touring American champs, brawls and DQ finishes.) Obviously, there was an ideology behind the All Japan style, but it was prompted by a change in booking, whereas shoot style was purely ideological.

 

Strong style was in part a con or a carnie thing, but the workers took it seriously, which is why you see pro-wrestlers trying to win MMA fights listing their background as pro-wrestling and not amateur wrestling. Japanese wrestlers have always been a little senstive about anyone who calls pro-wrestling fake.

[goc]

I'll try to contribute to this thread and start a new line of discussion. I've seen a lot of people on various message boards say that comedy has no place in wrestling. Would you guys agree or disagree with that statement?

 

Personally, I think there is definitely a place for it, and it's called the undercard. When you start trying to inject comedy into the main event, it usually doesn't work and kind of hurts a guy's ability to be taken seriously, like Kurt Angle. But on the other hand, I think it did wonders for guys like Edge and Christian when they were just starting to develop their personalities outside of being fake vampires. And Santino would probably have gotten released by now if they hadn't decided to turn him into a comedic heel.

[Jingus]

Depends on the type of comedy. Unfortunately, in most professional wrestling, the "jokes" often tend to be so purile and mean-spirited that it would turn off the majority of the population. Jokes about guys being gay, jokes about guys having small dicks, jokes about regular women allegedly being fatasses, jokes involving people dressed in either inappropriate clothing or no clothing at all, you know the drill.

[Loss]

Of course there's a place for comedy, it's just that there's a difference between Fuerza Guerrera-type buffoonery or Michinoku Pro-type comedy, and 15 minute skits about poop. The latter, I would be fine without.

[kjh]

To add to the point Loss made, The Rock was probably the greatest wrestler ever at incorporating a lot of comedy into his schtick, while still being able to be taken completely seriously as a main eventer, as he knew when it was the time for laughs and the time to be serious. Mick Foley was excellent at this too now that I come to think of it. Steve Austin and Vince McMahon managed to pull off some completely ridiculous angles with straight faces. The Midnight Express, one of the greatest tag teams for work ever, had tons of comedy spots in their repertoire. So, yes there is a place for comedy in wrestling, even in the main events with the right performers and the right ideas.

[Death From Above]

jokes about regular women allegedly being fatasses

This is hardly a wrestling-exclusive issue. More an issue of wrestling appealing to teenagers in general, and teenagers mostly being complete fucking retards (with rare exceptions from time to time).

[1004Holds]

Kind of new here, but I have a few myths I would like to see answered:

 

The Rock wrote his own material. Also, he never politicked.

Promos in the WWE were never scripted. When they started scripts in 2001, everyone's mic skills got a lot worse.

Japan,Mexico, and Canada have more respect for wrestling than the United States.

Only technical wrestlers are good wrestlers.

The only talented Harts were Bret and Owen.

Bad News Allen was Stone Cold before Stone Cold.

It is the responsibility of the worker to get over on his or her own. Backstage politics do not affect the pushes people get.

[Loss]

For the most part yes, yes, not really, not at all, possibly, in a way, and yes to the first sentence and no to the last sentence, in that order.

[Resident Evil]

Kind of new here, but I have a few myths I would like to see answered:

 

The Rock wrote his own material. Also, he never politicked.

Promos in the WWE were never scripted. When they started scripts in 2001, everyone's mic skills got a lot worse.

Japan,Mexico, and Canada have more respect for wrestling than the United States.

Only technical wrestlers are good wrestlers.

The only talented Harts were Bret and Owen.

Bad News Allen was Stone Cold before Stone Cold.

It is the responsibility of the worker to get over on his or her own. Backstage politics do not affect the pushes people get.

1) From what I hear, The Rock was pretty good at not playing the politics game. And I know he produced more of his material than others did. To what extent on these issues, I don't know

 

2) I think when scripts starting becoming more prominent, mic skills generally overall got worse.

 

3)Yes they do have more respect for wrestling than the United States. Though some places in the States certainly respect wrestling quite a bit.

 

4)Biiig No for this.

 

5)They were the best of the family. Others did have some talent but not at that level.

 

6)In some ways yes. He had a really good bad a** persona.

 

7)First part YES. 2nd part is a biig NO.

[S.L.L.]

A little while back, I was talking about CHIKARA and the merits of comedy in wrestling on another board, and I said this:

 

I'm not anti-whimsy, and I even think you could have an entire comedy promotion and make it work. I've seen too many comedy films and TV shows that told emotionally compelling stories while making me laugh my head off not to believe that.

Obviously, not something that's ever really happened, and considering what often passes for humor in wrestling, not an idea I have any faith would work in practical application. But I do think it's hypothetically possible.

[Indikator]

Kind of new here, but I have a few myths I would like to see answered:

 

Promos in the WWE were never scripted. When they started scripts in 2001, everyone's mic skills got a lot worse.

Japan,Mexico, and Canada have more respect for wrestling than the United States.

The only talented Harts were Bret and Owen.

Bad News Allen was Stone Cold before Stone Cold.

- promos were probably never scripted by people from outside the wrestling industry. Also, I think it changed from talking points to verbatim quotes

- considering everything this is likely true. There are other countries far worse than the US, too

- the only Harts that people know are Bret and Owen. It's preposterous to rate the other siblings if you`ve never seen them

- thats like saying Mankind was Abyss before Abyss. There have been numerous other SOB gimmicks, the most important ones were probably Crusher & Dick the Bruiser. In the end the originator will probably be the first monster heel turned babyface. Who that was I can't say, maybe Al Mills, Danny McShain, Cowboy Luttral, Leo Savage...

By the way, the first huuuuge monster in wrestling was the French Angel Maurice Tillet. He is the answer for the Mankind/Abyss question. There have been other PT Barnum'ish monsters before, but he easily takes the cake. There have been no other successful guys like him in either America or Europe around 1900, so this is the only thing I can pretty much guarantee

[Death From Above]

A little while back, I was talking about CHIKARA and the merits of comedy in wrestling on another board, and I said this:

 

I'm not anti-whimsy, and I even think you could have an entire comedy promotion and make it work. I've seen too many comedy films and TV shows that told emotionally compelling stories while making me laugh my head off not to believe that.

Obviously, not something that's ever really happened, and considering what often passes for humor in wrestling, not an idea I have any faith would work in practical application. But I do think it's hypothetically possible.

 

I've never really seen the big problem with comedy in wrestling as long as the people there have a good time. Especially since it's not like anyone really buys into kayfabe anymore on a large scale, it's not like Kamen taking a slow motion shining wizard from Ebessan is going to expose the business or something. Speaking of which I thought a lot of the Ebessan (original, I haven't seen much of the newer ones) vs. Kamen work was pretty choice if comedy is your thing. You can only watch a stand up routine so many times before the jokes are old, but I thought most of it was harmless fun and fairly entertaining. And Ebessan is hardly the only guy to put out "wrestler imitates other wrestler for laughs", although it's more central to his stuff than most.

 

I don't know if I'd ever want to watch a whole show of 10 Ebessan's but I certainly think it has it's niche. Although you could bill a show with 10 Ebessan's as the Ebessaganza, which in itself makes it an idea worth considering.

[Loss]

I like comedy that isn't so calculated.

 

Jim Cornette trying to bribe a referee out of getting put in a cage above the ring before a Fantastics match is funny, but also fits his character and plays into the storyline perfectly. It's funny, but it's not a "comedy segment", if that makes sense.

[Death From Above]

Yeah it's definitely a different kind. I compare Ebessan to stand up comedy because, essentially, that's what it is. It's just a very physical routine.

 

I get why people who don't like it, don't. It's certainly no less forced than many kinds of spot-fu, which usually I'm not a fan of at all.

 

But, what the hell, Ebessan made me laugh (for the right reasons as opposed to laughing at guys because they think they are 500 times better than they are) from time to time so I'll cut him a break.

[Tawren]

Japan,Mexico, and Canada have more respect for wrestling than the United States.

 

As far as Canada, in Bret Hart's mind that is true but not in anybody elses.

[Guest LShunter]

The Rock wrote his own material. Also, he never politicked.

I can remember one instance of The Rock politicking. In the lead up to Wrestlemania XIX, Rock was scheduled to have a match against Booker on RAW where, if Rock won, he'd have his choice of a match at Wrestlemania: a title match against Triple H (which Booker currently had) or a match with Steve Austin. The match was advertised ahead of time, and ended up getting changed to The Rock vs The Hurricane (no stips). Apparently, The Rock was fine with putting over Booker, but not if Triple H was just going to beat him at Wrestlemania.

 

So yeah, that foreshadowed Triple H beating Booker T clean at Wrestlemania XIX, then a week or two afterwards beating The Hurricane for good measure.

[Resident Evil]

Japan,Mexico, and Canada have more respect for wrestling than the United States.

 

As far as Canada, in Bret Hart's mind that is true but not in anybody elses.

 

It is true. The United States on an overall basis does have less respect. It's not even debatable as there's a signifigant difference.

[Dylan Waco]

The fuck? Has this thread really reached the point where we are debating who "respects the bizness!" more?

[Sean Liska]

Wrestling in Canada does seem to be a more respected cultural thing than here. It can be covered in the mainstream media without anchors making it known that its beneath them. Wrestlers can regularly appear on something like Off the Record and be treated seriously.

[goc]

The fuck? Has this thread really reached the point where we are debating who "respects the bizness!" more?

I really don't think it's such a terrible discussion to talk about how countries perceive wrestling in their main stream media. Especially in the context of a myth busting topic, since I've seen a lot of people over the years that seem to have this idea that wrestling in Japan is some sacred respected sport, which it doesn't seem is true.