2009 WON HOF thread

[Childs]

Part of what made those so amusing and also part of what made them so sad was that when it comes to MMA watching Meltzer, Snowden, Todd Martin and Alvarez debate is like getting access to a debate between Shirley Povich and Bill James.

I don't think that Bill James would have ever called himself truly a "journalist". He long has preferred "historian", and has been comfortable with forms of "analyst" and "writer" and even coined a term for his field. If one actually reads his writings from the 80s it's pretty clear that he's trying differentiate himself from "journalists" and "media" that cover the sport, and regularly pointed to why he did.

 

I've seen debates/discussions between James and people like Povich. He was part of a weekly radio show during the baseball season for a few years in the late 80s/early 90s. It was a three headed monster. The host was either a local baseball broadcaster or local talk radio guy. One of the years the other person was a noted award winning baseball writer. I'm pretty sure it was Tracy Ringolsby (a J. G. Taylor Spink Award winning in the HOF) rather than Tim Kurkjian (future Spinks winner) or Jayson Stark (future Spinks winner). Anyway... Ringolsby was really quite awful.

 

Pretty much all forms of American Journalism to a large degree such. They're frankly embarassing. Baseball Journalism, as with much of Sports Journalism, is dogshit.

 

Not saying that Wrestling or MMA Journalism is any good. It really isn't all that good relative to what we know as great journalism. But I wouldn't hold up much of any sports journalism as an example to wrestling or MMA journalism. They're pretty similar.

 

 

Bill definitely does not consider himself a journalist. But he's happy to talk baseball with us lowly folk. He does a fair amount of stuff with Joe Posnanski, who is an excellent combination of traditional writer and guy who grasps statistical analysis. But he has always taken my calls, though he had no particular need to do so.

 

Ringolsby is terrible ... the epitome of a guy who takes pride in being an "old school" writer to the point of willfully ignoring useful information. Murray Chass is another.

 

Despite such examples, John, I have to disagree with your comparison of baseball journalism to MMA/wrestling journalism. There are so many more people covering baseball that even if a small percentage are talented or original, you get a lot more good writing on the subject. There are probably 100 good baseball pieces for every good wrestling article.

[Bix]

Dan Wahlers yaaay.

 

The 2009 Wrestling Observer Hall of Fame results were announced yesterday. The Midnight Express, Konnan, promoter Roy Shire, Japanese wrestler Masa Saito, and 25 year worldwide headliner Dr. Bill Miller were all inducted into the elite group by a panel of current and former wrestlers, industry leaders, reporters, and wrestling historians.

 

My thoughts on the results are that it's about time for The Midnight Express. To me, they've always been a slam dunk pick. They are considered by many to be one of, if not the top working tag team in the decade of the 80's. They have been long overdue this honor. Tag teams are woefully underrepresented in this HOF, and it was certainly a hard mountain for them to climb. Both versions of the tag team, Dennis Condrey and Bobby Eaton, and later Stan Lane and Bobby Eaton join their manager Jim Cornette, who is one of only three managers in the HOF. A well earned and well deserved accomplishment for the three men that made up The Midnight Express.

 

I was surprised both in a positive and negative way about some of the results of who didn't get in this year. I was glad to see Chris Jericho move up the ladder from the 12% he got got in the voting last year, to the 52% he got this year. A wrestler of the year award, and being the top performer in the wrestling business for the past year and a half really boosted his chances of getting elected in one of the coming years. For me, Jericho was a borderline Hall of Famer last year, but his awesome work week in and week out for the last year put him over the top. With the lack of new candidates next year, and in the years to come, it seems like only a matter of time for him.

 

The same goes for Rey Mysterio, who jumped from 42% last year to 56% this year, coming a mere eight votes short this year. Rey is an easy Hall of Fame pick in my opinion, because of how innovative and influential he was at getting wrestlers his size opportunities in the United States, and innovating the high flying luchadore style in the US. Not to mention the fact that he's been a top draw in WWE over a number of years, and his in-ring work speaks for itself. Unfortunately, he's going through the same thing that many guys have gone through. It's incredibly hard to get in on your first ballot in this Hall of Fame, and even harder if you're still an active wrestler. But as with Jericho, Mysterio is almost a sure bet to make it in one of the upcoming years. And it will be a well deserved, and overdue honor for him when it finally does happen.

 

I was disappointed that Edge only got 22 % in his first year on the ballot. A strong case can be made for him being a Hall of Famer right now. His in-ring work, and the fact that he's been a consistent main eventer in WWE for over four years now, and the fact that he pretty much carried Smackdown as its top star for a quite a while put his credentials at or very near HOF level, in my eyes. I think he's someone that will do a lot better in the coming years, provided that he returns from his latest injury, an achillies tendon rupture that is expected to keep him out of action well into 2010.

 

If he returns from that, and it's not a sure thing at all, and if he's able to return to the same level he was at previously, and if he puts together a few more years of the same type of work he's been doing, he will be a shoe-in in a couple years. But 22 % on the first ballot, that seems very low to me, for a guy that some could argue is at or very near the same level as Chris Jericho. The only difference is one has a Wrestler of the Year Award, and the other doesn't.

 

Fabulous Moolah dropping from 56 % last year to 44% this year was also very curious to me. To me, she's always been someone that should be in. I know there are a lot of negatives to her, as well, which is why she is always such a polarizing candidate. She was never really a top draw, or a great worker, but she was the top female name in the United States for 28 years, and regardless of how she kept herself in that position, which to me has always been overblown. Of course she protected her spot, every top wrestling star protects their spot. How does that make her any different from any other top wrestling star from the past 50 years? That shear length of time has to count for something, in my view. But I'm also at an age where I wasn't around when she was in her prime, and that seems to be where the divide comes in among voters. Her not being in the HOF is a pretty glaring omission to me.

[Boondocks Kernoodle]

I really don't see the argument for Edge as an HOFer. He carried Smackdown as top heel for about a year, yes, but did he draw during that time? Has Edge ever drawn a great buyrate where he could realistically be given credit for it? Smackdown was canceled by CW while Edge was carrying the show, and while it wasn't his fault, I'm sure it's something that would factor into the HOF chances of someone who wasn't a Meltzer favorite.

 

Also, the news that Bryan Alvarez's friend Vinny has a Hall of Fame ballot raises my skepticism about this whole venture.

[Eduardo]

Wait, Vinny has a ballot?!?

 

To those that don't have access to the F4W board, Meltzer got annoyed that people were saying Rude was a better candidate than Edge. It was pretty amusing.

[Dylan Waco]

Wait, Vinny has a ballot?!?

 

To those that don't have access to the F4W board, Meltzer got annoyed that people were saying Rude was a better candidate than Edge. It was pretty amusing.

I'm not sure I buy the argument for Rude as a better candidate than Edge, but Rude is the better worker, and neither of them is someone I would even consider voting for at this point. Still I'm begging you to drag over some Meltz quotes from that thread as it sounds hysterical

[Boondocks Kernoodle]

Count up how many PPV shows Edge headlined and Rude headlined over the course of their careers.

 

Edge was the dominant player on a major television show and Rude never was. Rude was a top heel on a failing product which isn't worth as much as the top heel on a successful one.

 

Ultimately, Rude wasn't one of the ten best guys on the ballot no matter how you slice it. Not saying Edge was. If you look at records and where people went, headlined, longevity etc. Rocky Johnson was a stronger candidate than Rude.

Edge held the world title on Raw, Rude never held WWE title.

 

Edge had your IC title on Samckdown far more times than Rude held the IC title.

 

Edge headlined more, involved in top angles more, more years as a good worker (and Rude was very good, but he didn't last as long). If Rude wasn't hurt, maybe he'd have been a stronger candidate, but he was.

Edge was still the dominant heel on both brands he was on for four straight years.

 

Rude could be argued was top heel for a short period of time in 1990 with Warrior and had only one PPV main event in WCW as part of a War Games, maybe two. He was a top heel, No. 2 in WCW for a couple of years, but Vader was the top heel at the time and Edge's period on top in both Raw and Smackdown trumped any success of Rude's period on top.

 

Rude was great in 1992, great heel, great worker, but I don't see him and Edge as being on the same level for careers.

Rude would be 6-3 1/2,195 today and Vince would be insulting him on promos for having a neck like a stack of dimes.

Vince told Rude he was getting to small to be pushed when Rude got off for a short period of time because his wife wanted to have a baby and was down to 212 after only a month off.

[Eduardo]

I was just about to post them, but those appear to be all the quotes from Dave concerning Rude. The last two quotes are Dave's bizzare "arguments" against people saying that if Rude was in WWE nowadays, he would have easily been one of the top heels on either SD! or RAW.

[Dylan Waco]

I like how Dave massively exaggerates the relevance of Edge's run "on top," the length of it, the length of time he was a quality worker and the importance of the IC title during Edge's reign. Honestly other than news reporting (where he is still clearly the best), Meltzer's "analysis" is not any better than Wahlers, Martin, et.

[Boondocks Kernoodle]

The IC title was brought up because someone claimed that the IC title during the time of Rude's reign was the equivalent of today's Smackdown title.

[Cox]

That PPV argument is ridiculously bad, and he has to know that. The Great Khali has headlined more PPVs than Andre the Giant, so he must be a better Hall of Fame candidate! Ridiculous.

[Dylan Waco]

That PPV argument is ridiculously bad, and he has to know that. The Great Khali has headlined more PPVs than Andre the Giant, so he must be a better Hall of Fame candidate! Ridiculous.

 

Dave's lost touch of reality when it comes to looking at scale, business models, et. and even trying to make reasonable comparisons. Reading him on stuff like that is sub-1wrestlingtalk.com level discussion.

[Bix]

Seriously, how can he not realize that # of title reigns and PPVs headlined is a totally different ballgame now? Edge's world title reigns add up to a year holding them.

 

He ignores that Rude also had a 13 month long secondary title run in WCW, followed by a 6 month run with what was easily the closest equivalent to the Smackdown title pre-WWE brand extension in the WCW International World Heavyweight Title. Add that to his almost 5 month reign as IC champ and you double Edge's time as a world champion, which was almost all as SD champ.

 

Oh, and all that on top of the fact that Rude was the real top heel from the moment he beat Sting for the US Title due to Luger being unable to wrestle because of a ridiculous contractual oversight until Vader won the WCW World Title, plus was the top heel fighting for the proto Smackdown title (the NWA title at that point) for the first few months of its existence, nevermind the fact that I thought that the "Rick Rude wasn't a great worker until he he joined the Dangerous Alliance" meme or anything close to it was dead by now.

 

And I doubt Rude would be 195 lbs. He'd still have HGH and Dave still seems to think that the top guys are on steroids, too, so...yeah, I don't even know.

 

The fact that he seems like he's being deliberately obtuse is what makes it really frustrating.

 

As a sidenote, I get that New Japan wanted the NWA title back, but WCW having two world titles after Muta dropped the belt is really a baffling bit of underrated stupidity that's never really brought up.

[Sean Liska]

I dunno. I'd probably rather watch Rude than Edge, but Dave has some points. Rude was only the top heel in a promotion for, what, less than a year? He was great but it's not like business was set on fire. Edge has had a period of being a top heel for several years. Smackdown hasn't done huge business during that time but it's been fine. I can see the argument that Edge has been a more significant figure during this era than Rude was during his. I could be persuaded otherwise if Rude was a strong B-show draw as the IC champ.

[Bix]

When was Edge the top heel in WWE? He's the secondary heel most of the time.

[goodhelmet]

There were long stretches in 2006, 2007, 2008 and earlier this year where Edge was the top heel on his brand. You could argue that whoever was Top Heel in the company was on the other brand (Orton, HHH, etc.) but Edge was in the thick of things in nearly every Main Event program since 2006 on his brand.

[JHawk]

When was Edge the top heel in WWE? He's the secondary heel most of the time.

Raw and SmackDown are seen as almost separate promotions in Meltzer's eyes since they both are touring brands, and logically since Edge main evented SmackDown as its champion there's an argument for him being the top heel of the brand. Edge moved to SmackDown in May 2007 and has been pretty much main eventing non-stop when healthy ever since.

[Bix]

WWF A-shows and B-shows were separate tours, too.

 

Also: "When healthy." It's closer to half of the alleged 4 years as top heel on his show taking injuries and de-pushes into account.

[tomk]

Didn't JYD headline a bunch of B show tours?

 

For whatever its worth HHH went into Hall of fame in 2005. And while in 2009 he's obviously a HOFer, he essentially went on as being the fifth most important guy during the WWE wrestling boom (behind Austin, Rock, Undertaker, Cactus Jack). Edge is essentially the fifth or sixth most important guy now. If being fifth most important part of machine is HOF worthy, he meets that standard.

[Dylan Waco]

I'm not a big HHH fan, but one could make the case that he was the fourth peg on that boom above Taker and the big "heel" of the bunch. I agree with the general criticism about when he was inducted, but that's a relevant point. That and the fact that the "boom" in question far surpasses what Edge is doing now.

 

On the other hand I really don't buy the argument that Rude is a better candidate than Edge, though based on Meltzer's arguments I'd love to hear him try and defend Edge over Sid.

[tomk]

The Hase vis a vis Taue discussion from Dave is far more interesting than the Edge stuff:

 

Hase was an integral part of booking probably the second or third biggest era for any company in history. His ability as a real shooter and great worker to always be a team player was considered huge in the mid-90s when "top guys didn't do jobs" was the mentality of the previous generation.

 

He made a lot of stiffs into big stars because of his ability to work with them. Hase got the highest marks among wrestlers, both older and younger.

 

Very high marks as a booker, some thought best worker of his era (I'd have him top ten, not No. 1), but he was the great team player on what was at the time very possiby the most well oiled team ever assembled.

In response to question of how Taue is viewed as worker (by workers) Dave writes:

 

If I told you, it would only make people mad.

I'm picturing Steve Williams as a Meltzer source telling Dave about how he struggled with Taue and how he would have paced himself better opposite a great amatuer like Hase.

[Dylan Waco]

The best thing about Taue being out is that by the metric Dave has established for guys like Edge there is absolutely no argument for Taue not being at minimum on the ballot, so you get the old "what their peers thought of them" talking point

[tomk]

I'm not a big HHH fan, but one could make the case that he was the fourth peg on that boom above Taker and the big "heel" of the bunch

I don't want to argue WWF since I really didn't follow closely but my impression was that the Austin v Taker stuff was pretty important. Also forgot to mention Vince as big wrestling heel being part of top five ahead of HHH.

 

Also reading my way up and down this to find stuff I may have missed skimming:

 

Red Bastion is interesting to me because based on what we know he was a Benoit-like superworker for his period and yet because he wasn't a smark-era guy I don't think he'll ever get in.

Bastien has a reputation as guy who a guy who is well liked by everybody who was a good highflyer. That doesn't equal superworker.

There are at least 5 or 6 Red Bastien matches easily available and don't see the Benoit comparison. He was a somewhat small highflyer who bumped big. I don't get the impression that his highflying was any more impressive than Verne Gagne's highflying or that his bumping was any bigger than Gagne's bumping.Was his highflying more impressive than Argentne Zuma who had a couple huge MSG draws? Unfortunately I don't think we have any Zuma footage. We have some Larry Chene and Joe Blanchard matches (both bumping small guys who hit some highflying spots) to compare.

[Dylan Waco]

I'm not going to argue the relative merits of Bastien's work because to be honest I've seen little of it. Still the consensus among his peers and people who are old enough to have seen him in his prime is that Bastien was a top worker of the era. People don't talk about Bastien's candidacy on account of influence or drawing power. The issue is always "he could work."

 

Benoit - Bastien comparison is not me comparing workers, but perception of workers and candidacies.

[sek69]

I'm guessing a lot of Dave's fandom of Edge comes from him being one of the few (perhaps the only) who got the fans completely behind Cena when they feuded. It seems fairly easy to tell that Dave is annoyed by the mixed reactions Cena gets (since a lot of it comes from male fans booing just because the girls/kids are cheering and not because of anything Cena is doing), so anyone who can get the crowd fully behind him will get a pop from Meltzer.

[tomk]

JBL got crowd to pop for Cena.

Umaga got crowd to pop for Cena.

Khali did.

Big Show did as well.