2009 WON HOF thread

[ohtani's jacket]

Well, it's the way it is, but it really shouldn't because it's irrelevant to what the guy did in pro-wrestling

It's not irrelevant. The problem here is that people think there's some sort of sweeping critera that covers every candidate. Each candidate is different. Whatever their background is, it will play a part in their overall candidacy. If they have a legit athletic background more power to them. Someone should tell Dave that Big Daddy was a rugby league player.

 

UWF-I was pro-wrestling. His matches weren't more legit than Onita's. There was no "illusion".

Don't be stupid. His matches were more legit than Onita's.

 

He was a pro wrestler. But he was doing MMA, not pro-wrestling. As it is, he was a MMA fighter, with a pro-wrestler gimmick and personna. Does Dan Severn success in UFC and amateur wrestling makes him a HOF too? After all, he was a pro-wrestler before doing MMA, just like Ken Shamrock. Shamrock shoud be in a HOF because of his UFC accolades too ? Tamura's MMA fight should be considered too ? It makes no sense to me. Of course, if Sak matches were worked, then I understand, because it would be pro-wrestling then. But as far as I know, these were legit MMA fights.

Shamrock and Severn wouldn't pushed as pro-wrestlers doing MMA. If Tamura had been a bigger success in MMA, he'd be an ideal candidate for the Hall. Are you telling me Tamura stopped being a pro-wrestler when RINGS turned to shoots?

 

A large chunk of Japanese pro-wrestling history is based on faking worked shoots, to say that it's not pro-wrestling anymore if they do shoots is ridiculous. No-one in Japan saw it that way, because they genuinely believed that Inoki had pioneered it decades before. It was not a giant leap for mankind. Too many people look at the difference between WWE and UFC and hold that as the distinction between pro-wrestling and MMA, but in Japan the lines are blurred because of the worked shoot movement that began in the 1980s.

 

It all goes down to Meltzer nonsense about MMA being pro-wrestling, because I guess there's a legitimity complex there.

Dave has a lot of fair points about MMA being pro-wrestling.

[El-P]

UWF-I was pro-wrestling. His matches weren't more legit than Onita's. There was no "illusion".

Don't be stupid. His matches were more legit than Onita's.

In what way ? They were about two guys collaborating in a fake fight. And Sakuraba doing pro-westling never drew shit, while Onita drew huge. SAkuraba doing MMA drew huge. This is a pro-wrestling HOF, or at least it should be.

 

Shamrock and Severn wouldn't pushed as pro-wrestlers doing MMA.

That's what they actually were. They weren't pushed as such because UFC was in the US, and there's no way they would have been taken seriously if promoted that way. But that's what they were. It didn't kep Severn from bringing his NWA belt to a UFC fight. Pro-wrestlers doing MMA.

 

If Tamura had been a bigger success in MMA, he'd be an ideal candidate for the Hall.

Tamura should be in the hall for being the greatest shoot-style wrestler ever and being a reasonnably big star in later days RINGS once Maeda faded.

 

Are you telling me Tamura stopped being a pro-wrestler when RINGS turned to shoots?

What does "being a pro-wrestler" mean anyway? Of course he's a pro-wrestler, but when he's doing MMA fight, he's not doing pro-wrestling, it's not hard to understand. It's like saying Dennis Rodman's inclusion in the NBA HOF (if there's such a thing) should consider his pro-wrestling matches as a plus because it drew big PPV numbers and TV ratings, and he was a basketball player damnit. Except when he's tagging with Hulk Hogan, this has nothing to do with basketball. When Tamura fights Gilbert Yvel, it has nothing to do with him working a pro-wrestling match with Gary Allbright. The disciplines are closerin style and spirit, but one is a performance, the other is a sporting event. Of course the problem is that PRIDE did promote some wrestling matches too and presented them as legit, which is a problem.

 

A large chunk of Japanese pro-wrestling history is based on faking worked shoots, to say that it's not pro-wrestling anymore if they do shoots is ridiculous.

Apart from Inoki and UWF which derives directly from him, no, there's no "large chunk of Japanese pro-wrestling history" that is about faking shoots. AJ sure was never about that. Neither was 90% of NJ, which was about juniors, gaijin monsters and Choshu throwing lariats. Neither was 90% of joshi save for the occasionnal martial art bullshit, neither was FMW (which was basically making a spoof out of it at first) nor lucharesu... Worked "shoot" existed in the US too, with the occasionnal gimmick boxing match and such.

 

Dave has a lot of fair points about MMA being pro-wrestling.

That it's promoted, or should be promoted as pro-wrestling, well, maybe. But sorry, MMA has never been pro-wrestling and won't be as long as it isn't worked. PRIDE blurred the line but like you said there's that cultural thing in Japan with martial arts and Inoki pretending to shoot, but really, there's no way anybody can say that MMA is pro-wrestling. It's the closest thing to pro-wrestling you can find, but it's just not the same thing at all. It's closer to boxing or any other legit fight sport than it is to pro-wrestling. Which is why the supposed accolades in MMA is bullshit as far as a pro-wrestling HOF goes. FTR I do think the HOF is bullshit anyway and I really don't care one way or another, but that argument about Sakuraba making it thanks to his MMA career just sounds absurd to me.

I guess Akebono should go straight into the pro-wrestling HOF then. (I guess you'll tell me that Akebono is still a sumotori and not a pro-wrestler...)

[Dylan Waco]

Serious question for OJ - should Jesse Ventura go in? He was clearly one of the most well known figures in American pro wrestling. He most definitely used his wrestling name as a wedge in politics. He was still involved as a commentator while being the mayor of a city. He referreed a major PPV wrestling match while Governor.

[Jingus]

Ventura's always nominated in the not-in-ring category, and I think he could make it in there. He definitely popularized the concept of having a heel color commentator, which almost every other company copied afterwards. Yeah I know Piper and others did it first, but Jesse was the first one to do it on a national stage and he set the tone for such a role. That alone easily covers the fame and influence parts, and it would be hard to argue that he wasn't very effective at playing that part in terms of performance quality.

 

But as for Sakuraba or Lesnar, no way. MMA isn't wrestling, period, and neither one of them had a HoF-worthy career doing worked matches. Brock's was too short, and Kazushi's was far too inconsequential. Whatever either one of them did after leaving wrestling should not affect how their wrestling careers are vieweed in hindsight. The two businesses simply aren't the same thing, they're not even close.

[jdw]

Territory seems a bit misleading. He was a national draw. It's a little different from saying someone drew in Calgary or Memphis or Mexico City.

Mexico City probably isn't a great example. It's highly likely that all of the very biggest draws in Mexico City in the last 50+ years also were draws at one point or another in their careers elsewhere in the country. Mexico City and Mexico have vs London and England... that's not really a population comp that Mexico takes a back seat in, and hasn't for a while.

 

That's not to say that Big Daddy wasn't a national draw, and that there isn't value in that.

 

John

[jdw]

The pro-Sak stuff is laugh a minute level quality.

 

John

[tomk]

If a MMA guy does a work is he a pro-wrestler? No, he's an MMA fighter doing works.

When a football player has an MMA match, he is a MMA fighter.

 

When a football player works a wrestling match he is a wrestler.

 

Bob Sapp shouldn't go into pro football hall of fame based on his MMA record.

[sek69]

I don't really have a dog in this fight, but it bears mentioning that the more I see of Big Daddy the more it seems like he's the British version of Dusty Rhodes. I'm reasonably certain that had Dusty not been on the initial 1996 list of inductees, there would be some very similar arguments being made.

 

I mean, yeah it seems beyond question that they both sucked in the workrate sense, but they also both had boatloads of personality and charisma. Just because someone is lacking in one area of what most feel is a HOF quality wrestler doesn't mean that person should be immediately disqualified from the discussion.

 

It really seems that the whole Big Daddy situation is just another version of the never ending "Workrate Uber Alles" debate that anyone who's been discussing wrestling on the internet for more than 5 minutes should be sick to death of. Also the whole deal with British wrestling in general being a somewhat different animal seems to confuse a lot of folks since a lot of the usual metrics don't completely apply.

[Phil Schneider]

Dusty didn't suck in the ring, and I really don't imagine most people would argue that he did.

[sek69]

Dusty didn't suck in the ring, and I really don't imagine most people would argue that he did.

 

I don't think he did either, but I've seen people attempt to make the argument. Usually it boils down to those who weren't able to get past his physical appearance, and make ridiculously inaccurate claims of his in ring ability to try to make it look like they aren't being a build queen about it.

 

Granted, the largest proponent of this has been Scott Keith (his biggest claim is that in the 60 minute draws with Flair, Dusty just lies on the mat selling the figure 4 for most of it), but it's also been well documented how people parrot his opinions until they become considered truths.

[tomk]

Really every criticism laid at Big Daddy's feet (crappy worker, only pushed so hard due to nepotism, killed a whole genre of wrestling) can be laid at the Fabulous Moolah's feet and she was the North American candidate who garnered the most support last year and she wasn't even a headliner of a successful territory, yet alone a national superstar. But I suppose being pushed as a legend of the business by WWE counts for a lot, if the Hall Of Fame is more about perception than truth as Loss earlier hypothesized.

I don't think the difference is about historical perception.

Moolah is well liked by her voting peers.

Impression I get is that Big Daddy isn’t well liked by voting peers (British wrestlers or the wrestlers who toured the Uk during their careers).

Perhaps if Crabtree was more gregarious backstage. did more social drinking, or had a stable of female trainees he was willing to pimp out to his colleagues he might do better.

[kjh]

I don't think the difference is about historical perception.

Moolah is well liked by her voting peers.

Impression I get is that Big Daddy isn’t well liked by voting peers (British wrestlers or the wrestlers who toured the Uk during their careers).

Perhaps if Crabtree was more gregarious backstage or had a stable of female trainees he was willing to whore out he might do better

Moolah also does extremely well with active wrestlers, so I think part of the difference is historical perception, unless she taught the modern day Divas how to whore themselves out to management and all the top stars. Also, many of Moolah's female peers hated her guts for the same reasons Daddy's peers hate his.

[Herodes]

The Sakuraba argument comes down to the fact that many wrestlers (especially older wrestlers) and wrestling fans are ultimately embarassed by being associated with something as inherrently silly as pro wrestling, so associating their fake sport with MMA is their way of adding some credibility to the nonsense. By latching on to MMA and finding tenuous links to pro wrestling, it makes them feel better about devoting their time or career to something that is the subject of so much ridicule. Hence Angle and Sakuraba in the HOF and Brock too eventually. It's stupid ofcourse since it would be like a medicore pro wrestler going into boxing and winning the title and then using that as an argument to put him into the Observer HOF. I suspect that the people who voted for Sakuraba know this but they are desperate for any credibility that comes from a loose association with MMA by claiming he is 'one of their own'.

[El-P]

I don't think the difference is about historical perception.

Moolah is well liked by her voting peers.

Impression I get is that Big Daddy isn’t well liked by voting peers (British wrestlers or the wrestlers who toured the Uk during their careers).

Perhaps if Crabtree was more gregarious backstage or had a stable of female trainees he was willing to whore out he might do better

Moolah also does extremely well with active wrestlers, so I think part of the difference is historical perception, unless she taught the modern day Divas how to whore themselves out to management and all the top stars. Also, many of Moolah's female peers hated her guts for the same reasons Daddy's peers hate his.

 

Moolah has been pimped for the last 20 years as a legend by the WWE machine, and her later days as a comical figure with Mae Young probably altered the perception of active wrestlers who only knew her as the though and funny (well, to Vince and the WWE office at least) granny instead of a shitty egoistical asshole who pimped her trainees and destroyed any chance of success for women's wrestling in the US.

[ohtani's jacket]

In what way ? They were about two guys collaborating in a fake fight. And Sakuraba doing pro-westling never drew shit, while Onita drew huge. SAkuraba doing MMA drew huge. This is a pro-wrestling HOF, or at least it should be.

Sakuraba worked a far more legit style. It's highly unlikely that Sakuraba would've been a success at shoots if he'd been a deathmatch worker.

 

That's what they actually were. They weren't pushed as such because UFC was in the US, and there's no way they would have been taken seriously if promoted that way. But that's what they were. It didn't kep Severn from bringing his NWA belt to a UFC fight. Pro-wrestlers doing MMA.

Eh, I think it's a stretch to say that Severn was a pro-wrestler. Shamrock dabbled in it but was more or less unknown as a pro-wrestler before 1997.

 

Tamura should be in the hall for being the greatest shoot-style wrestler ever and being a reasonnably big star in later days RINGS once Maeda faded.

It's highly unlikely that Tamura will ever get in the HOF, but he'd be a stronger candidate in Dave's eyes if he'd been a more high profile MMA fighter.

 

What does "being a pro-wrestler" mean anyway? Of course he's a pro-wrestler, but when he's doing MMA fight, he's not doing pro-wrestling, it's not hard to understand.

Right, and I'm saying it doesn't matter whether it's pro-wrestling or not. The entire foundation of pro-wrestling was based on the idea that you took something that was supposedly legit and fixed it so that you could control the outcome and make money. But when a promoter comes along and takes something rigged and makes it real, people balk. Why? It's simply an off-shoot. The fact that in Japan, and even the US, you had guys switching between the two ought to tell you something.

 

It's like saying Dennis Rodman's inclusion in the NBA HOF (if there's such a thing) should consider his pro-wrestling matches as a plus because it drew big PPV numbers and TV ratings, and he was a basketball player damnit. Except when he's tagging with Hulk Hogan, this has nothing to do with basketball.

This type of argument would only work if WCW did worked basketball games.

 

When Tamura fights Gilbert Yvel, it has nothing to do with him working a pro-wrestling match with Gary Allbright. The disciplines are closerin style and spirit, but one is a performance, the other is a sporting event. Of course the problem is that PRIDE did promote some wrestling matches too and presented them as legit, which is a problem.

C'mon, Tamura switched between shoots and works long before Maeda went full time with shoots. Are you telling me he had a split personality? The only real difference between Tamura the worker and Tamura the fighter was that Tamura the worker was a hell of a lot more exciting than Tamura the fighter.

 

Apart from Inoki and UWF which derives directly from him, no, there's no "large chunk of Japanese pro-wrestling history" that is about faking shoots. AJ sure was never about that. Neither was 90% of NJ, which was about juniors, gaijin monsters and Choshu throwing lariats. Neither was 90% of joshi save for the occasionnal martial art bullshit, neither was FMW (which was basically making a spoof out of it at first) nor lucharesu... Worked "shoot" existed in the US too, with the occasionnal gimmick boxing match and such.

Apart from Inoki and UWF? That's a fairly large chunk of Japanese pro-wrestling history. And an important chunk too. What's more, worked shoots go back further than Inoki in Japan.

 

That it's promoted, or should be promoted as pro-wrestling, well, maybe. But sorry, MMA has never been pro-wrestling and won't be as long as it isn't worked. PRIDE blurred the line but like you said there's that cultural thing in Japan with martial arts and Inoki pretending to shoot, but really, there's no way anybody can say that MMA is pro-wrestling. It's the closest thing to pro-wrestling you can find, but it's just not the same thing at all. It's closer to boxing or any other legit fight sport than it is to pro-wrestling. Which is why the supposed accolades in MMA is bullshit as far as a pro-wrestling HOF goes. FTR I do think the HOF is bullshit anyway and I really don't care one way or another, but that argument about Sakuraba making it thanks to his MMA career just sounds absurd to me.

I guess Akebono should go straight into the pro-wrestling HOF then. (I guess you'll tell me that Akebono is still a sumotori and not a pro-wrestler...)

It depends how you look at it. Too many people define pro-wrestling based on the fact that it's fake, but in essence it's a type of fight promoting where you control the outcome. Pro-wrestling belongs in the same fight promoting categories as boxing and MMA. They overlap in numerous ways and why people can't accept that they're in the same business is beyond me. They're all trying to draw crowds, sell merchandise and get people to order pay-per-views on the basis of draws, cards and fights.

[ohtani's jacket]

Serious question for OJ - should Jesse Ventura go in? He was clearly one of the most well known figures in American pro wrestling. He most definitely used his wrestling name as a wedge in politics. He was still involved as a commentator while being the mayor of a city. He referreed a major PPV wrestling match while Governor.

I wouldn't vote for him. Politics, for the most part, is unrelated to pro-wrestling. MMA is related.

[Dylan Waco]

How is politics unrelated to pro wrestling?

[kjh]

The fact that in Japan, and even the US, you had guys switching between the two ought to tell you something.

All it really says is that celebrities fighting, whether they be pro wrestlers, Olympic heroes, yokozunas or comedians draw money.

[Herodes]

If a low-level, relatively unsucessful MMA fighter changed career and became a succesful pro wrestler, should he be inducted into the MMA HOF?

 

If Sakuraba has not wrestled in UWFi and had gone straight into PRIDE should he be in the Observer HOF? If so, shouldn't Fedor and Couture also be in? Or is it the fact that he had an unsuccessful pro wrestling career prior to MMA that makes him an exception?

[ohtani's jacket]

The Sakuraba argument comes down to the fact that many wrestlers (especially older wrestlers) and wrestling fans are ultimately embarassed by being associated with something as inherrently silly as pro wrestling, so associating their fake sport with MMA is their way of adding some credibility to the nonsense. By latching on to MMA and finding tenuous links to pro wrestling, it makes them feel better about devoting their time or career to something that is the subject of so much ridicule. Hence Angle and Sakuraba in the HOF and Brock too eventually. It's stupid ofcourse since it would be like a medicore pro wrestler going into boxing and winning the title and then using that as an argument to put him into the Observer HOF. I suspect that the people who voted for Sakuraba know this but they are desperate for any credibility that comes from a loose association with MMA by claiming he is 'one of their own'.

I'm afraid that swings both ways. For every wrestler or fan who is ultimately embarrassed by being associated with something as inherently silly as pro-wrestling, there's a person who derides pro-wrestling as being inherently silly and not worthy of being legitimised or made credible. Your argument may be true, but the whole Sakuraba angle was based on him legitimising Japanese fighting, which the fans and media ate up.

 

The whole Sakuraba thing is simple. If you take a guy who was doing worked shoots and make him a star doing MMA fights, aside from the angle that you spin on it, it doesn't matter what he does in the ring. It could be real, it could be fake, it doesn't matter. All that matters is that he drew pro-wrestling fans and new fans to a different sort of promotion. People in this thread are advocating a guy who did 3-5 minute matches that consisted mostly of body checks. The fact that Big Daddy did works is not part of his candidacy. His matches, for the most part, are irrelevant.

 

If a guy can get into the hall for being a huge draw and being good on the mic then a special case like Sakuraba or Funaki is not a stretch of the imagination when the business works differently in Japan than it does from the US. Whether Lesnar is the same sort of case is up for debate.

 

Let's say a mediocre wrestler goes into boxing and wins a title. That in itself is not grounds for being in a pro-wrestling HOF. But if pro-wrestling people put him into boxing and manage him to stardom, then it gets a little blurry. If Vince started up his own boxing promotion or latched onto it somehow, and started sending his workers in to do real fights, people's heads would explode.

[ohtani's jacket]

The fact that in Japan, and even the US, you had guys switching between the two ought to tell you something.

All it really says is that celebrities fighting, whether they be pro wrestlers, Olympic heroes, yokozunas or comedians draw money.

 

Which sounds awfully like pro-wrestling in other words.

[Dylan Waco]

I don't see any argument for Lesnar's case is up for debate using your standard. Based on buyrates alone it's fairly evident he should be a no brainer if this argument you are presenting is something you think ought to be applied consistency.

[ohtani's jacket]

If a low-level, relatively unsucessful MMA fighter changed career and became a succesful pro wrestler, should he be inducted into the MMA HOF?

 

If Sakuraba has not wrestled in UWFi and had gone straight into PRIDE should he be in the Observer HOF? If so, shouldn't Fedor and Couture also be in? Or is it the fact that he had an unsuccessful pro wrestling career prior to MMA that makes him an exception?

Who says Sakuraba's career was unsuccessful before MMA?

 

If Sakuraba hadn't worked in UWF-i or Kingdom, then no, he wouldn't belong in the HOF. Fedor doesn't belong in the WON HOF and neither do Silva or Nogueira for the simple fact that they were never pro-wrestlers.

 

Would it work the other way? No, that doesn't appear logical, but if the MMA people suddenly saw money in it things could change. I don't follow MMA all that closely, but my understanding is that right now the UFC is making money. So long as they're making money the only aspects of pro-wrestling they're going to touch are presentation, booking and perhaps some similar marketing. Were their financial situation to change, they might start rigging fights (if they haven't done so already.)

[El-P]

Sakuraba worked a far more legit style. It's highly unlikely that Sakuraba would've been a success at shoots if he'd been a deathmatch worker.

The style was not more legit. It "looked" more legit, but it was bullshit too.

 

Eh, I think it's a stretch to say that Severn was a pro-wrestler. Shamrock dabbled in it but was more or less unknown as a pro-wrestler before 1997.

Severn was a pro-wrestler in indies before he even step foot in the UFC. He was the NWA champ for goodness sake. He said it himslef in interviews, he made money doing pro-wrestling before making money doing MMA. Severn worked indies, IWA Japan, NJ, UWF-I, WWF. Severn was a pro-wrestler who also did MMA. And he said it himself, these are two different profesionnal realms.

 

It's highly unlikely that Tamura will ever get in the HOF, but he'd be a stronger candidate in Dave's eyes if he'd been a more high profile MMA fighter.

Which is complete bullshit since it's not a MMA Hof but a pro-wrestling Hof and what you did outside of pro-wrestling just shouldn't count for shit.

 

Right, and I'm saying it doesn't matter whether it's pro-wrestling or not. The entire foundation of pro-wrestling was based on the idea that you took something that was supposedly legit and fixed it so that you could control the outcome and make money. But when a promoter comes along and takes something rigged and makes it real, people balk. Why? It's simply an off-shoot. The fact that in Japan, and even the US, you had guys switching between the two ought to tell you something.

They're switching between the too becaus eof their fighting background, not because they were "pro-wrestlers". Those who did because they were "pro-wrestlers" without solid fighting background got their asses kicked. As soon as it becomes "real", it's not pro-wrestling anymore. It's like saying porn and prostitution are two exact things. It's not. Sorry for bringing back the pron analogy, but a porn actress and a whore aren't the same thing.

 

This type of argument would only work if WCW did worked basketball games.

 

C'mon, Tamura switched between shoots and works long before Maeda went full time with shoots. Are you telling me he had a split personality?

No. Like Severn said, it's two different professionnal realm. One day you do a pro-wrestling match, the other you do a MMA fight. It's just not the same thing, how hard is that to understand. A porn actress who would whore out herself on her days off is doing two different activity, even though one ressemble the other very much.

 

Apart from Inoki and UWF? That's a fairly large chunk of Japanese pro-wrestling history. And an important chunk too.

It's been a huge draw at some point, but to say that Japanese wrestling is alla bout worked shoot is just wrong. And Inoki wasn't all about worked shoot either. He was also all about fighting Bruiser Brody and Tiger Jeet Singh and Hulk Hogan. And UWF was also all about working pro-wrestling style matches against NJ. And UWF-I was also all about having Sheiky baby and Vader working pro-style. I mean, It's like saying japanese wrestling was all about workrate and such, it's just wrong.

 

It depends how you look at it. Too many people define pro-wrestling based on the fact that it's fake, but in essence it's a type of fight promoting where you control the outcome. Pro-wrestling belongs in the same fight promoting categories as boxing and MMA. They overlap in numerous ways and why people can't accept that they're in the same business is beyond me. They're all trying to draw crowds, sell merchandise and get people to order pay-per-views on the basis of draws, cards and fights.

That the business part of it are comparable is one thing, but still. Pro-wrestling isn't and has never been a sport. Period. You have to draw the line somewhere.

Go a little further and you can say that cinema is the same thing as boxing and pro-wrestling because after all, it's all about getting stars together (good guys vs bad guys in most big mainstream entertainment movie) and drawing huge crowds in theatres and sell DVD's. With that line of thinking, you can go very far.

[El-P]

Who says Sakuraba's career was unsuccessful before MMA?

Sak was a very good micard talent. Period. That's not Hof material. End of debate.