ohtani's jacket Posted September 26, 2009 Report Share Posted September 26, 2009 Taue doesn't have a great rep in Japan for what it's worth. People in the business thinking Hase was a better worker than Taue shouldn't come as a surprise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted September 26, 2009 Report Share Posted September 26, 2009 About Hase "His ability as a real shooter...". BONG. About Edge vs Rude, does the fact that Edge is a rather shitty worker, mediocre at best, count ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted September 26, 2009 Report Share Posted September 26, 2009 El-P, are you a fan of Rude? I couldn't remember if I had heard you say either way, I was just curious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted September 26, 2009 Report Share Posted September 26, 2009 Yeah, I always enjoyed Rude, but I got to really appreciate his work during the GWE poll. Really became a fan of his work at this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ditch Posted September 26, 2009 Report Share Posted September 26, 2009 FWIW, Mike Modest loved the hell out of wrestling Taue because Taue could get the crowd going without requiring stiffness or big bumps. I wouldn't be surprised by Hase being seen as better than Taue in Japan. That doesn't change Taue's merit vis-a-vis Edge. I mean, Taue was big at a time when there was a ton of competition and no matter what the promotion did they couldn't get airtime before midnight on the weekends. Edge is on top of a quasi-monopoly wrestling machine that already had a ton of widely available prime-time airtime when he got his push. And he got his big push by a combination of lucking into heel heat thanks to a scandal, and being in the right place at the right time since so many top names left in the previous 5 years. He was going to get title reigns pretty much by default because WWE's title scene has been so thin. Taue, meanwhile, had to work his ass off to contribute to matches with far superior athletes in the best in-ring promotion in the history of the world. And Taue did so in main events or semi-mains for longer than Edge has, and without needing gimmicks and killing himself with stunt-show bumps as a crutch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.L.L. Posted September 26, 2009 Report Share Posted September 26, 2009 Edge held the world title on Raw, Rude never held WWE title. Kinda surprised no one picked up on the strangeness of this comparison. Edge held the World Title, which, in theory, is supposed to be an extension of the WCW Title...which Rick Rude held. How is this supposed to be the more valid comparison? And you can't even say that it's because it gives Dave the answer he wants, because Edge has held the WWE Title, too, so you can just say he held both belts while Rude only held one. Why this comparison? Is Dave that desperate to prove his point that he couldn't take a fraction of a second to think this one through? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted September 26, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2009 He means the Raw title in either form since people were arguing that the SD title in either form was essentially the old IC title. That said, Edge's Raw title reigns combined were about as long as CM Punk's one reign on Raw, so yeah... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted September 26, 2009 Report Share Posted September 26, 2009 Neither is a HOF guy, and I think I've learned from getting in the middle of debates previous years comparing two non-HOF candidates that it's just not worth it. But I will say if Dave starts questioning John Cena's HOF credentials when he's eligible, we should remember how pro-Edge he is now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rovert Posted September 26, 2009 Report Share Posted September 26, 2009 I love how far some of you read into Dave's throwaway comments at times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
floyd Posted September 26, 2009 Report Share Posted September 26, 2009 I love how far some of you read into Dave's throwaway comments at times. Much like the bible, Dave's musing could be either taken as literal or symbolic. It is up to the reader to decide and then join the proper splinter-group of his religion. But choose wisely. Edge Vs. Ric Rude. From wikipedia on WON Hall of Fame: Because of the scripted nature of professional wrestling, inductions are not based on win-loss records or titles held. The criteria used when voting include the length of time spent in wrestling, historical significance, ability to attract viewers, and wrestling ability. I like Rude better and think he's a better worker, but I think Edge has the edge for the HOF. I also don't think either are quite at HOF echelon level, but then again as much as I liked Masa Saito, I don't think he was quite there either. It's up to the voters and how thick the competition is in a certain year . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.L.L. Posted September 27, 2009 Report Share Posted September 27, 2009 I love how far some of you read into Dave's throwaway comments at times. Well, there's often not much going on on a surface level, or what is going on makes no logical sense. If we're to assume that there's anything to what Dave the wrestling analyst is saying - and there's a good argument to be made that there isn't - you kinda have to dig a bit deeper. Mind you, I agree that Edge is a stronger HOF candidate than Rude. But you can come to the right conclusion for the wrong reasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted September 28, 2009 Report Share Posted September 28, 2009 I'm picturing Steve Williams as a Meltzer source telling Dave about how he struggled with Taue and how he would have paced himself better opposite a great amatuer like Hase. Reminds me of the time Kurt Angle buried Eddie Guerrero to Dave Meltzer for being unable to keep up with him because he had the audacity to sell during their matches together. I suppose once a lazy and clumsy wrestler, always one, or the burial mutates when Dave doesn't buy your original talking point anymore. I don't really buy the gushing Hase praise for the New Japan boom period in the '90s. I'm not sure being a booker's right hand man should be enough to get in the Hall Of Fame on its own and their are a ton of guys who were more important in the ring than him (Inoki, Choshu, Fujinami, Tenryu, Takada, Vader, Hashimoto, Mutoh, Chono, even Liger and Sasaki). At least with Taue, he was constantly in the main event mix from 1991-2000 and had plenty of one off main events on major NOAH shows over the next decade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted September 28, 2009 Report Share Posted September 28, 2009 Reminds me of the time Kurt Angle buried Eddie Guerrero to Dave Meltzer for being unable to keep up with him because he had the audacity to sell during their matches together. No way ? Oh man, that's pure gold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted September 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 28, 2009 Reminds me of the time Kurt Angle buried Eddie Guerrero to Dave Meltzer for being unable to keep up with him because he had the audacity to sell during their matches together. No way ? Oh man, that's pure gold. There was a WC thread where TomK sort of argued with Dave about this but I'm having trouble finding it. Maybe Tom will remember it better (and/or could find it) but I think the gist was Dave saying that he was really writing about Eddy's lack of cardio (and geez, that THAT sounds really bad almost 4 years after his heart exploded) slowing down the match to a crawl because he was blown up while putting over how fit Angle was (including something like "Lots of guys have to slow down for Eddy, nobody has to slow down for Angle"). This led to a Tom response along the lines of "What does how you do on a stationary bike have to do with being a good wrestler? If Angle's so fit, why is he stuck in 3 minute Angle Challenge squashes?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted September 28, 2009 Report Share Posted September 28, 2009 Better all-around wrestler - Guerrero or Benoit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cox Posted September 28, 2009 Report Share Posted September 28, 2009 Wow, Dave didn't even try to defend his dumb talking points back then. I guess that show how he's evolved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted September 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 28, 2009 Was there another thread where the backstage fight over Eddy selling and/or being blown up got discussed? I remember that getting brought up specifically with Dave elaborating and Tom making the stationary bike crack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomk Posted September 28, 2009 Report Share Posted September 28, 2009 Honestly don't remember the stationary bike reference, but my favorite part of that whole story was that it wasn't just Angle...the story in Observer was that Angle and Luther Reins were complaining about Eddie because he would stay down selling for too long thus slowing down their matches. Horshu was complaining that being programed with Eddie Guerrero was preventing him from having high end matches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted September 29, 2009 Report Share Posted September 29, 2009 And one more thing on the historical candidate tip....I don't know if Yohe did some big write-up for him that I missed, but while Everett Marshall - in the words of jdw - passes the laugh test, he seems like a pretty weak candidate compared to the other fiat inductees from recent years, not to mention a number of other guys from his time like Orville Brown, Maurice Tillet, Steve Casey, and Lou Daro who all seem to have much stronger cases for inclusion. Not sure what gave him the edge here. Steve didn't advocate Marshall. Steve was pushing other candidates. Beats me who was pushing Marshall. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted September 29, 2009 Report Share Posted September 29, 2009 I guess Saito's case is that he was the rare Japanese guy who found success in a number of American promotions and that he was a very good worker for a long time. He was also a building block for the initial hot run of Choshu's Army in New Japan, like Arn Anderson to Choshu's Flair but with a mentor vibe. He struck me as a boarderline case, but I was glad to see him go in, because I really enjoyed his stuff from '80s NJ. He worked extremely hard, came off as a credible ass-kicker and bled like a freak until he was pushing 50. I confess to really scratching my head over Saito. I wouldn't have a problem with him going in as part of an Ishingundan "group". But I think that anyone who looked at things honestly would find that Terry Gordy is a better stand alone candidate than Saito, and never really got a serious push as a solo candidate. Even within Ishingundan, one would be surprised by how limited his role was because he left for the US: New Wolves Phase 1-7-83 (taped 1-6) 2. Killer Khan/Seiji Sakaguchi d. Riki Choshu/Masa Saito 1-14-83 3. Antonio Inoki/Tatsumi Fujinami vs. Riki Choshu/Masa Saito 1-21-83 (taped 1-20) 3. Tatsumi Fujinami/Antonio Inoki/Seiji Sakaguchi d. Killer Khan/Masa Saito/Riki Choshu 1-28-83 2. Rusher Kimura/Isamu Teranishi/Animal Hamaguchi d. Killer Khan/Riki Choshu/Masa Saito 2-4-83 (taped 2-3) 3. Antonio Inoki/Tatsumi Fujinami d. Riki Choshu/Masa Saito 3-4-83 1. Tatsumi Fujinami/Seiji Sakaguchi vs. Riki Choshu/Masa Saito 3-11-83 4. Antonio Inoki/Seiji Sakaguchi/Tatsumi Fujinami vs. Masa Saito/Riki Choshu/Killer Khan 3-18-83 2. Killer Khan/Masa Saito/Riki Choshu d. Rusher Kimura/Animal Hamaguchi/Isamu Teranishi 3-25-83 (taped 3-24) 2. Masa Saito/Riki Choshu d. Adrian Adonis/Tony P. 4-5-83 (taped 4-3) 4. Kengo Kimura/Seiji Sakaguchi vs. Killer Khan/Masa Saito 4-8-83 (taped 4-7) 3. Killer Khan/Riki Choshu/Masa Saito 4-22-83 (taped 4-21) 3. Antonio Inoki d. Masa Saito Saito jobs in a Loser Leaves Town match, and heads to the US Ishin Gundan vs Seiki Gundan Phase Choshu and Khan farted around for a while after Saito left, before they joined hands with Animal Hamaguchi in June to form Ishin Gundan. Their first TV matches together where in July. Yatsu returned to Japan in October after a year abroad "growing up", and got a major push as a member of Ishin Gundan. It was 10 months before Saito appeared on TV with them again: 5/11/84 1. Kengo Kimura/Tatsumi Fujinami vs. Riki Choshu/Masa Saito 5/25/84 3. Antonio Inoki/Tatsumi Fujinami vs. Riki Choshu/Masa Saito 6/1/84 2. Kengo Kimura/Tatsumi Fujinami vs. Yoshikai Yatsu/Masa Saito 6/8/84 2. Fujiwara/Osamu Kido/Sakaguchi vs. Riki Choshu/Yatsu/Masa Saito 6/15/84 1. Riki Choshu/Yatsu/Masa Saito vs. Patera/Adonis/Murdoch And that's it. In for a series, then out. Choshu & Co. jumped from New Japan on September 21, ran an angle with All Japan on November 1 and debuted on the final night of the Tag League. Their went regular with All Japan on Jan 2, 1985 and started working TV the next day. Saito's TV with All Japan? 2/2/85 (taped 1/24) Jumbo/Tenryu/Ishikawa vs. Choshu/Masa Saito/Khan 2/16/85 (taped 2/5) Jumbo/Tenryu vs. Choshu/Saito That's it. He joined the opening series of the year at the tail end of it, worked a pair of TV tapings, and wouldn't appear again on All Japan TV. I'm not saying that Saito played *no* role in the New Wolves / Ishin Gundan / Choshu's Invasion of All Japan. He did. He played a key early role in the New Wolves. He played a less key early role in the jump to All Japan, as a major focus was placed on Yatsu right out of the gate in All Japan. He did play a role in the jump back to New Japan, but that really wasn't Choshu's Army for long. He frankly only played a "key" role because Choshu was barred from wrestling and working on TV due to lawsuit threats from Baba and NTV. In a sense, Saito was Choshu's stand in for those "big matches" with Inoki. It's kind of sad that Saito goes in on his own as it makes it far less likely that the Ishin Gundan group will go in. Ishin Gundan (Choshu, Saito, Khan, the wildly underrated Kobayashi, Hamaguchi and Yatsu) had a vastly greater impact as a "group" on New Japan and All Japan from 10/82 - 2/87 than the Four Horsemen had on Crockett as a "group" (rather than Flair as a solo with his various singles feuds) from the 1985-88 period covered by Will's set. Ishin Gundan jumped from one national promotion to another, changed the fortunes of a promotional war, crippled the first promotion they left to the point that Choshu was given a piece of the company to come back and impacted the second promotion they left by indirectly forcing the feud that would carry it for the next three years. I love the Midnight Express & Jim Cornette, but it would be a stretch to say that "group" had the impact Ishin Gundan had. I think one of the sad things about the hap-hazzard fashion inwhich things get done. Corny never should have been put in with the original class. 95% of his "case" in 1996 was related to the Midnight Express, and he should always have been bundled with them as "The Midnight Express & Jim Cornette". They were a "group" in every sense of the word, and Hall of Fame Manager Jim Cornette really was little more than his role in the MX group. His stuff in Memphis before the MX may have been enjoyed, but it really had nothing to do with him getting a thumbs up. His stuff in Smokey got props, but again it had next to nothing to do with him getting the thumbs up. It was with Eaton & Condrey/Lane. But once you put in Jim on his own, you're literally cutting of 1/3rd of the aguement for the MX as a "group", and an extremely critical third. Not just as a talker, but also as a worker: Jim was an exceptional working manager at ringside adding a good deal to the quality of the group's matches. I'm rambling... John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cox Posted September 29, 2009 Report Share Posted September 29, 2009 You might have some insight into this, but how much of Cornette's induction related to his booking of SMW as well? I know it was never a financial success, but from what I've read, it was always well-regarded by smart fans at the time (much like his OVW run later on), and he won Booker of the Year in 1993. Now, it might look ridiculous, because he never really booked a successful territory for very long, but in 1996, it might not have seemed so crazy to include that for Cornette, which was enough to make Corny a first-ballot guy separate from the MX. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childs Posted September 29, 2009 Report Share Posted September 29, 2009 I guess Saito's case is that he was the rare Japanese guy who found success in a number of American promotions and that he was a very good worker for a long time. He was also a building block for the initial hot run of Choshu's Army in New Japan, like Arn Anderson to Choshu's Flair but with a mentor vibe. He struck me as a boarderline case, but I was glad to see him go in, because I really enjoyed his stuff from '80s NJ. He worked extremely hard, came off as a credible ass-kicker and bled like a freak until he was pushing 50. I confess to really scratching my head over Saito. I wouldn't have a problem with him going in as part of an Ishingundan "group". But I think that anyone who looked at things honestly would find that Terry Gordy is a better stand alone candidate than Saito, and never really got a serious push as a solo candidate. Even within Ishingundan, one would be surprised by how limited his role was because he left for the US: New Wolves Phase 1-7-83 (taped 1-6) 2. Killer Khan/Seiji Sakaguchi d. Riki Choshu/Masa Saito 1-14-83 3. Antonio Inoki/Tatsumi Fujinami vs. Riki Choshu/Masa Saito 1-21-83 (taped 1-20) 3. Tatsumi Fujinami/Antonio Inoki/Seiji Sakaguchi d. Killer Khan/Masa Saito/Riki Choshu 1-28-83 2. Rusher Kimura/Isamu Teranishi/Animal Hamaguchi d. Killer Khan/Riki Choshu/Masa Saito 2-4-83 (taped 2-3) 3. Antonio Inoki/Tatsumi Fujinami d. Riki Choshu/Masa Saito 3-4-83 1. Tatsumi Fujinami/Seiji Sakaguchi vs. Riki Choshu/Masa Saito 3-11-83 4. Antonio Inoki/Seiji Sakaguchi/Tatsumi Fujinami vs. Masa Saito/Riki Choshu/Killer Khan 3-18-83 2. Killer Khan/Masa Saito/Riki Choshu d. Rusher Kimura/Animal Hamaguchi/Isamu Teranishi 3-25-83 (taped 3-24) 2. Masa Saito/Riki Choshu d. Adrian Adonis/Tony P. 4-5-83 (taped 4-3) 4. Kengo Kimura/Seiji Sakaguchi vs. Killer Khan/Masa Saito 4-8-83 (taped 4-7) 3. Killer Khan/Riki Choshu/Masa Saito 4-22-83 (taped 4-21) 3. Antonio Inoki d. Masa Saito Saito jobs in a Loser Leaves Town match, and heads to the US Ishin Gundan vs Seiki Gundan Phase Choshu and Khan farted around for a while after Saito left, before they joined hands with Animal Hamaguchi in June to form Ishin Gundan. Their first TV matches together where in July. Yatsu returned to Japan in October after a year abroad "growing up", and got a major push as a member of Ishin Gundan. It was 10 months before Saito appeared on TV with them again: 5/11/84 1. Kengo Kimura/Tatsumi Fujinami vs. Riki Choshu/Masa Saito 5/25/84 3. Antonio Inoki/Tatsumi Fujinami vs. Riki Choshu/Masa Saito 6/1/84 2. Kengo Kimura/Tatsumi Fujinami vs. Yoshikai Yatsu/Masa Saito 6/8/84 2. Fujiwara/Osamu Kido/Sakaguchi vs. Riki Choshu/Yatsu/Masa Saito 6/15/84 1. Riki Choshu/Yatsu/Masa Saito vs. Patera/Adonis/Murdoch And that's it. In for a series, then out. Choshu & Co. jumped from New Japan on September 21, ran an angle with All Japan on November 1 and debuted on the final night of the Tag League. Their went regular with All Japan on Jan 2, 1985 and started working TV the next day. Saito's TV with All Japan? 2/2/85 (taped 1/24) Jumbo/Tenryu/Ishikawa vs. Choshu/Masa Saito/Khan 2/16/85 (taped 2/5) Jumbo/Tenryu vs. Choshu/Saito That's it. He joined the opening series of the year at the tail end of it, worked a pair of TV tapings, and wouldn't appear again on All Japan TV. I'm not saying that Saito played *no* role in the New Wolves / Ishin Gundan / Choshu's Invasion of All Japan. He did. He played a key early role in the New Wolves. He played a less key early role in the jump to All Japan, as a major focus was placed on Yatsu right out of the gate in All Japan. He did play a role in the jump back to New Japan, but that really wasn't Choshu's Army for long. He frankly only played a "key" role because Choshu was barred from wrestling and working on TV due to lawsuit threats from Baba and NTV. In a sense, Saito was Choshu's stand in for those "big matches" with Inoki. It's kind of sad that Saito goes in on his own as it makes it far less likely that the Ishin Gundan group will go in. Ishin Gundan (Choshu, Saito, Khan, the wildly underrated Kobayashi, Hamaguchi and Yatsu) had a vastly greater impact as a "group" on New Japan and All Japan from 10/82 - 2/87 than the Four Horsemen had on Crockett as a "group" (rather than Flair as a solo with his various singles feuds) from the 1985-88 period covered by Will's set. Ishin Gundan jumped from one national promotion to another, changed the fortunes of a promotional war, crippled the first promotion they left to the point that Choshu was given a piece of the company to come back and impacted the second promotion they left by indirectly forcing the feud that would carry it for the next three years. I love the Midnight Express & Jim Cornette, but it would be a stretch to say that "group" had the impact Ishin Gundan had. I think one of the sad things about the hap-hazzard fashion inwhich things get done. Corny never should have been put in with the original class. 95% of his "case" in 1996 was related to the Midnight Express, and he should always have been bundled with them as "The Midnight Express & Jim Cornette". They were a "group" in every sense of the word, and Hall of Fame Manager Jim Cornette really was little more than his role in the MX group. His stuff in Memphis before the MX may have been enjoyed, but it really had nothing to do with him getting a thumbs up. His stuff in Smokey got props, but again it had next to nothing to do with him getting the thumbs up. It was with Eaton & Condrey/Lane. But once you put in Jim on his own, you're literally cutting of 1/3rd of the aguement for the MX as a "group", and an extremely critical third. Not just as a talker, but also as a worker: Jim was an exceptional working manager at ringside adding a good deal to the quality of the group's matches. I'm rambling... John Yeah, I found Frank's long-ago write-up on Ishin Gundan's HOF case to be very persuasive. Saito was not a better solo candidate than Gordy. He probably wasn't a very strong candidate at all. I just really enjoyed his work in reviewing matches for the NJ 80s project and had an instinctively positive reaction to him making it ... like a Red Sox fan with Jim Rice, I suppose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted September 29, 2009 Report Share Posted September 29, 2009 Bill definitely does not consider himself a journalist. But he's happy to talk baseball with us lowly folk. He does a fair amount of stuff with Joe Posnanski, who is an excellent combination of traditional writer and guy who grasps statistical analysis. But he has always taken my calls, though he had no particular need to do so. Agreed on this. Not just reporters, but he's also been accessable for decades to his readers. One need to know how to approach him, but he's very accessable. Ringolsby is terrible ... the epitome of a guy who takes pride in being an "old school" writer to the point of willfully ignoring useful information. Murray Chass is another. Agreed. Despite such examples, John, I have to disagree with your comparison of baseball journalism to MMA/wrestling journalism. There are so many more people covering baseball that even if a small percentage are talented or original, you get a lot more good writing on the subject. There are probably 100 good baseball pieces for every good wrestling article. I think we get 1000 bad baseball pieces for every bad wrestling one. Seriously. The Coke scandal ran through baseball, and baseball reporters largely buried their heads to it until the Pitt Trail forced their hands. Years after the fact, we see guys like Keith Hernandez still treated with respect by the baseball media. The Riods story goes back to the 80s (at the very least), and the overwhelming majority of baseball reporters largely have ignored it over the years, or just wished it would get done with so they can go back to covering the games. Contrast that with Meltzer. He's been covering the dope problem in wrestling from early in his newsletter, and increasingly covered it over the years. He touched on the riods problem as a ticking time bomb no later than his coverage of Gino's death. Think about that one for a minute: Gino's death was Coke related, and while dealing with that being a problem in the business, Meltzer was also writing the steriods were an even larger bomb waiting to go off. His coverage of riods in wrestling over the decades blows away the coverage of pretty much *every* scandal in baseball over that same time period. Dave playing favorites with people like Ross? That's nothing compared to sports reporters sitting on stories. You don't think that most of the beat reporters covering the Red Sox in the 80s didn't know that Wade Boggs was banging Margo on road trips long before it ever broke? Or the Laker beat reporters didn't know that James Worthy was fucking all sorts of groupies and hookers long before he got busted for the two hookers? Or that Magic was fucking everything in sight long before the AIDS story broke? Football still has a massive steroid problem, yet the NFL white washes it and the media ignores it except when the stupid get caught. Basketball hasn't yet gotten touched by a riod scandal. Does anyone honestly think the sport has been clean over the years? There's a lot that I've disagreed with Dave on over the years, or been critical of him on... even when we were talking and traveling together. But there really isn't any difference between how he covers his niche and how the MSM covers their various ones be it sports (which wrestling isn't) or entertainment. There are some things that Dave does better, some things that he doesn't do as well, and a host of things that he's pretty much par for the course. Perhaps one difference since he's a one stop shop is that Dave's "news", "analysis" and "commentary/opinion" all gets morphed together rather than different writers doing different things at a paper. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ditch Posted September 29, 2009 Report Share Posted September 29, 2009 Was Masa Saito even in the top 10 of Japanese wrestlers not in the HOF? Sasaki, Sakaguchi, Hamada all seem better on this ballot. Taue seems clearly superior. Fujiwara is someone who Masa has nothing on whatsoever. Not sure about Tamura, but then Funaki and Sakuraba got in and they both did less in pro wrestling. Is Masa Saito a better candidate than Masanobu Fuchi? Fuchi did a lot of training in the AJ dojo, did a lot of booking of post-split AJ and that's often been the best-booked promotion in Japan, he was in a tremendous number of MOTYCs. Heck he was even in one of the Tupelo brawls. Minoru Suzuki, between pre-Pancrase, Pancrase, and being a big name for the last 6 years, seems like a better choice. Jun Akiyama has headlined a couple dome shows, lots of Budokans, and was in a ton of great matches. Am I crazy to suggest Rusher Kimura, star of IWE and part of several big invasion feuds in AJ and NJ? See, what gets me is that the above names are largely more recent and/or more accessable to foreign fans than Masa Saito. It's not like Saito was an all-time great evil foreigner heel in the territories, nor was he a uniquely great bit player in Japan. I just don't understand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted September 29, 2009 Report Share Posted September 29, 2009 Also Volk Han is a Japanese candidate and he's a better pick than Saito in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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