2009 WON HOF thread

[jdw]

The Rocco comment with the numbers is pretty much what I'm saying. 53 ballots contained at least one Euro on them. It's not 53 "voters" that Dave designated as Euro Voters whose votes or ballots wouldn't count in or against the other buckets.

 

Dave just isn't any good at explaining stuff like this. It has an internal logic to him and makes perfect sense, but getting it across can confuse the shit out of people.

 

I've generally understood what it means because (i) I've gotten a PhD in Dave-Speak over the years, and (ii) was still talking to him when he transitioned from the 1996-97 selection process to the balloting.

 

I think if he just gave the numbers for all of the stuff, skipping the names of the voters, it would be crystal clear.

 

Of course it's possible that there were 175 inside-the-business ballots and 75 reporter & historian ballots (which is frankly a lot... 75?) and that might look odd for a "newsletter" that for the majority of its history played outside the business while reporting inside information on the business.

 

Anyway, not rolling out the numbers really has nothing to do with his promise that the ballots be anonymous.

 

John

[S.L.L.]

Hey Bix, I think you are right about Dave. It appears he and SLL share more in common than Judaism.

 

You know, I've come up with bizarre, ill-conceived organizational systems like this that I change the structure of on the fly because I don't like the results it gives me. Of course, I have the good sense not to share it with the world unless I can actually make it work.

[kjh]

My latest response to Dave:

 

It's clearly explained on the ballot what the rules are.

Sorry, but I politely disagree. I think if it was clearly explained, we wouldn't be having this discussion and there wouldn't be such misconceptions about the voting system and voting patterns.

If an American who is not either an expert on, say Mexican wrestling, as an example were to vote for Konnan, that would count among Konnan's American voting. If Konnan got enough American votes to get in, he'd be in. But it would not count for Konnan's Mexican voting, because it would screw the other guys.

I hope you don't find my pedantry irritating, but surely when reporting the results you should give a breakdown of Konnan's American votes and his Mexican votes? Konnan got more than 45 Mexican votes so he's in this year. From your response he also would have gone in this year if he got more than 121 North American votes. But this begs the question how many North American votes did he get? Obviously he didn't get enough to get in via this route, but I'm sure it would be fairly significant though not close to enough to get in. If I was a voter and I saw Konnan got 48 votes, I'd automatically assume that my vote was included in that tally, whether I was a Mexican wrestling expert or not. I think if American voters who aren't Mexican wrestling experts knew Konnan didn't have a chance in hell to get in through their vote, they wouldn't vote for Konnan and vote for another American candidate instead.

 

Does this make sense or am I still misunderstanding your voting system? I appreciate the time you've spent clarifying this issue.

[Resident Evil]

Man, the obsession with our leader Mr. Meltzer is amazing!

[kjh]

Not obsessed, just trying to get Dave to unambiguously explain his voting system. I'm trying to walk Dave through the following implications of what he's been saying: (a) the rules on the ballot aren't clearly explained, as at least some voters clearly have misconceptions about the current system and have had them for years; ( the current system is not sufficiently transparent as votes from voters outside their regions of expertise are going unreported; and © voters may vote differently if they truly understood the system.

 

It's really no skin off my nose if Dave doesn't care about the implications of the voting system as it stands; it's his HOF after all.

[jdw]

Dave's last response sounds quite crackers. You're response back was the right one:

 

Is Dave putting Konnan's votes into multiple buckets? What about someone in Japan voting for Konnan? Is that in Konnan's "Japan Bucket"?

 

He really needs to roll out the full voting totals. Again, skip "naming names" because we're not asking for that. Give us the vote totals and where he assigns them.

 

Frankly, this gets really strange if you think of it in terms of non-US buckets. Were there really that many voters from Europe or who are "experts" on Europe? That just doesn't seem possible unless he was giving out votes to the people who were pushing the band wagon to get Euros on the ballot. I don't think to many of the Euro Fans over on DVDVR got ballots.

 

Yeah... not making sense.

 

khj: use Yohe as an example and ask Dave where Steve's ballot would get assigned. Expert on Old Timers, Modern US, Japan and Lucha?

 

To add as a contrast, ask him how Mitchell's ballot would be treated.

 

John

[ohtani's jacket]

What a bizarre system. How many wasted votes are there every year? Also, what happens to the Japanese or Mexican votes for a North American workers? Do they disappear into the ether? I'm guessing Dave must classify a fair number of people as wide ranging experts.

[Dylan Waco]

Dave's clearly lying or doesn't know how his own system works.

[tomk]

REPORTERS

 

1. Konnan

 

2. Roy Shire

 

3. Seiji Sakaguchi

 

4. Rey Mysterio

 

5. Bill Miller

 

6. Dr. Wagner Sr.

 

7. Mark Rocco

 

8. John Tolos

 

9. Don Owen

 

10. Midnight Express

So Konan was the number one vote getter among reporters? Curious what percentage of those votes had to be ditched or tossed into a seperate US bucket, since so few reporters are actually knowledgeable when it comes to lucha.

[kjh]

I assume that ranking is based on reporters within their region. Konnan's percentage wouldn't include reporters outside of Mexico who aren't lucha experts. Roy Shire's percentage wouldn't include reporters who had little knowledge of wrestling history before 1980. And so on.

 

It's interesting comparing last year's Mexican results to this year's results:

 

MEXICO

Votes needed for induction into the Hall of Fame: 74

PERFORMER VOTES PCT 2007%

PACO ALONSO 90 73% 59%

Konnan 60 48% 58%

Dr. Wagner Sr. 59 48% 41%

Dr. Alfonso Morales 56 45% ----

Villano III 50 40% 54%

Atlantis 43 35% ----

Blue Panther 31 25% 34%

Karloff Lagarde 23 19% 52%

Vampiro 19 15% 11%

Less than 10% of the votes and dropped from next year’s balloting: Hector Garza

MEXICO

Votes needed for inclusion in the Hall of Fame: 45

KONNAN 48 64% 48%

Dr. Wagner Sr. 35 47% 48%

Dr. Alfonso Morales 30 40% 45%

Blue Panther 26 35% 25%

Villano III 23 31% 40%

Karloff Lagarde 20 27% 19%

Dr. Wagner Jr. 15 20% -----

Atlantis 14 19% 35%

Vampiro 8 11% 15%

Less than 10% of the votes from the region and dropped from next year’s balloting: Ultimo Guerrero & Rey Bucanero

By my calculation that's 48 less Mexican voters than last year. Assuming Dave sent out as many ballots this year as he did last year, it doesn't seem like he was tossing votes on the woodpile for Paco Alonso from people who weren't exactly lucha experts. Which suggests that he treats a candidate like Konnan, whose career crossed more than one region differently than other candidates, by tossing votes from American voters who he believes are voting for Konnan based on his American achievements.

[Bix]

It's also kinda insulting to guess that anyone would be voting for Konnan based on his US achievements or lack thereof (in-ring at least, there's probably more argument as a backstage figure but he's on the ballot as a wrestler). I'm pretty sure the less Lucha inclined voters see a guy who they know was a big star in Mexico, having headlined by far the biggest show in the history of Mexican wrestling while headlining and helping book in a boom period. They may not know all of the details, but the best aspects of his candidacy were pretty well known.

 

Rocco is different as a guy who's being pimped based on his working ability, but how many tours of Japan did he have? He definitely had long gaps where he wasn't around.

[jdw]

I don't think Dave is tossing any votes on the woodpile or not counting them. If Bruce voted for Konnan, it helped Konnan get in. Bruce isn't a lucha expert, nor a puroresu expert. But his votes for each would count.

 

Again, I'd be really interested for Dave to:

 

* produce a full set of numbers for 2009 breaking down everything

 

* walk through how two very specific ballots (Bruce and Yohe) are treated

 

I think Bruce has talkes about his ballot for pretty much the entire decade, so disclosing it would be fine. Steve wouldn't have any issues either: he's talked about his as well over the years, and would post it if asked.

 

John

[kjh]

I don't think Dave is tossing any votes on the woodpile or not counting them. If Bruce voted for Konnan, it helped Konnan get in. Bruce isn't a lucha expert, nor a puroresu expert. But his votes for each would count.

When I said "tossed votes on the woodpile", I didn't mean Dave wasn't counting them, but if he's treating votes from some voters differently than others that essentially what he's doing. Konnan isn't going to get enough votes from American voters to get in via that route, so if Bruce isn't considered a Mexican region voter his vote is essentially wasted and as it goes unreported disappears into the ether.

 

Still haven't read all of the Hall Of Fame issue, but Dave's write up of the Fabulous Moolah's future chances was interesting:

 

Two other repeated close calls in the past were not in the running this year in Dick Murdoch and the Fabulous Moolah. Moolah’s 56% was the highest in last year’s election, where nobody was voted in. Her numbers in the past had ranged greatly. Moolah does her best numbers among reporters and active wrestlers, but doesn’t do well among her peers or historians. The big divide in her seems to be those who saw her in her prime don’t see her as a strong candidate for the most part. Those who know the name “The Fabulous Moolah” and see 28 years as world champion often see her as a slam-dunk omission. You can never tell where things are going, but Moolah moving to the veterans committee status, so to speak, in a few years, looks to do her more harm than good, and her best chance may be in the next few years, and this year’s results weren’t promising since going in, she probably would have been as a big a favorite as anyone.

I always thought Moolah would get in when she became considered a historical candidate, because the historical voters bucket would swell with people who only voted for Moolah due to ignorance about other historical candidates, but the bolded part in the paragraph above suggests that such votes would be treated differently. Looks like my assumption was wrong.

[tomk]

I assume that ranking is based on reporters within their region. Konnan's percentage wouldn't include reporters outside of Mexico who aren't lucha experts.

I don't buy that.

 

Yohe:

Dave tells me that every wrestler & writer in Japan voted for Masa Saito.

If ranking is based on percentage of reporters from region and 100% of the reporters from Japan voted for Saito...one would assume that he would show up on top ten among reporters.

 

Instead:

 

REPORTERS

 

1. Konnan

 

2. Roy Shire

 

3. Seiji Sakaguchi

William's suggestion of asking Dave to walk through how Yohe's ballot was treated seems like the best bet for getting some real understanding.

Did Whalers or someone else like him post his ballot? Walking through how an actual ballot was treated should clear stuff up.

 

Otherwise these attempts to reverse engineer something that makes sense just feel futile.

Begrudgingly accept that it's a trade secret like formula for making hotdogs and move onto the task of pimping Cien Caras, Walton and Enrique Torres.

[Bix]

Who was the best of these wrestlers?

Jim Londos

Bill Longson

Everett Marshall

Wahoo McDaniel

Leroy McGuirk

For some reason, doing an opinion poll about who you like best among these guys when only one wrestled after 1950 seems odd to me.

[Guest Iron Chad]

Those "which wrestler is better" polls on Meltzer's website are too foolish to waste 5 seconds of thought on. Except for the "which wrestler was a bigger draw" polls since drawing is mostly empirical stats with little room for opinion.

[jdw]

I don't think Dave is tossing any votes on the woodpile or not counting them. If Bruce voted for Konnan, it helped Konnan get in. Bruce isn't a lucha expert, nor a puroresu expert. But his votes for each would count.

When I said "tossed votes on the woodpile", I didn't mean Dave wasn't counting them, but if he's treating votes from some voters differently than others that essentially what he's doing. Konnan isn't going to get enough votes from American voters to get in via that route, so if Bruce isn't considered a Mexican region voter his vote is essentially wasted and as it goes unreported disappears into the ether.

I don't think that's the case. Seriously... I think if Bruce voted for Konnan, it counts as a vote for Konnan and is reported.

 

I don't think Dave is communicating very well.

 

But my thought would be to ask him: if Yohe and Mitchell voted for Konnan, is it reflected in the number of votes Dave reported Konnan getting.

 

John

[kjh]

Who was the best of these wrestlers?

Jim Londos

Bill Longson

Everett Marshall

Wahoo McDaniel

Leroy McGuirk

For some reason, doing an opinion poll about who you like best among these guys when only one wrestled after 1950 seems odd to me.

Doesn't Dave do these polls every year? Go through the WON HOF candidates in aphabetical order, which inevitably ends up with the same odd polls every year where the winner is obvious.

[jdw]

Yes. Straight alpha. It would be interesting to see what would happen if he randomized it.

 

John

[Cox]

Or at least compared wrestlers across eras instead of doing weird polls like these, where clearly the most "modern" of candidates is going to carry the day. Of course Wahoo is going to dominate this category, most of his readers are more likely to have seen a Wahoo match than a Bill Longson match.

[jdw]

Or Londos, who is the right pick of this batch (and pretty much most anybody he goes against).

 

John

[WrestlingPower]

Whether fair or not, since Dave isn't limiting voters to their region's candidates, the only way the voting makes sense would be to count anyone who votes for a Japanese (for example) to be in that region. The really curious thing now becomes, even though this is unlikely to ever happen, he states that a voter can opt to vote for no one. If that's the case, how does he count that? If a non-Mexican expert's vote doesn't count against Mexicans he doesn't vote for, but does count for Mexicans he does vote for, then how would a "no vote for anyone" count any differently?

 

I'm also concerned that if Dave truly is so strictly assigning voters to certain regions & subsets, he must really think he knows his voters & their preferences. It seems like a lot of the voters are old sheet readers he's known for 20 years. I would bet a lot of them don't follow NEARLY as much wrestling as they used to, or most certainly have narrowed their scope. Why is their vote any more important than someone who's been an internet reporter for 10+ years covering lots of regions & watching lots of footage that Dave doesn't even watch anymore? Is there a nominating committee for those to recieve ballots? I'm just curious how one would even get on Dave's radar to start receiving ballots. There's a lot of intelligent discussion on the internet from some knowledgable people that probably have more insight than some of the current voters.

[kjh]

I bumped the thread with a couple of questions and Dave's already responded:

 

I'd previously thought Moolah would have a better chance as the same number of people would vote for her, but less voters vote for historical candidates, so her percentage would automatically be boosted upwards. That leads to my question, if Moolah was a historical candidate, how would you treat a vote from an active wrestler or reporter who voted for her, but didn't vote for any other historical candidates due to lacking knowledge about them? Would these votes essentially go unreported in the Observer, as only the votes from the veterans committee, so to speak, would be reported?

It will all be broken down easier next year, but if she got enough votes to get in from non-veterans committee she'd be in. The votes don't go unreported, they go in a different category and the listing is by the percentage in the category they are in.

 

Similar to Masa Saito's U.S. votes. If Saito got enough votes to get in under U.S. standards from U.S. voters, he's in. But he didn't, so he's listed with his Japanese numbers.

I'm glad Dave is doing a more detailed breakdown of votes next year, as it will make his system a lot more transparent and make his analysis of results easier to interpret.

 

I'm just curious how one would even get on Dave's radar to start receiving ballots. There's a lot of intelligent discussion on the internet from some knowledgable people that probably have more insight than some of the current voters.

Dave's HOF is modelled after real sports HOFs. No real sports HOF would give ballots to very knowledgeable message board posters. So Dave isn't going to start giving ballots out to the likes of Phil Schneider, tomk, Goodhelmet, Loss or Bix. Which wouldn't be a problem if the depth of wrestling reporters' knowledge wasn't so poor. But that's why he had to start strictly assigning voters to certain regions & subsets.

[goodhelmet]

Dave's HOF is modelled after real sports HOFs. No real sports HOF would give ballots to very knowledgeable message board posters. So Dave isn't going to start giving ballots out to the likes of Phil Schneider, tomk, Goodhelmet, Loss or Bix. Which wouldn't be a problem if the depth of wrestling reporters' knowledge wasn't so poor. But that's why he had to start strictly assigning voters to certain regions & subsets.

Well shit...

[Bix]

I'm just curious how one would even get on Dave's radar to start receiving ballots. There's a lot of intelligent discussion on the internet from some knowledgable people that probably have more insight than some of the current voters.

Dave's HOF is modelled after real sports HOFs. No real sports HOF would give ballots to very knowledgeable message board posters. So Dave isn't going to start giving ballots out to the likes of Phil Schneider, tomk, Goodhelmet, Loss or Bix. Which wouldn't be a problem if the depth of wrestling reporters' knowledge wasn't so poor. But that's why he had to start strictly assigning voters to certain regions & subsets.

Except if we all sent regular columns to Dave for his site.

 

Or begged in a really annoying fashion like Crimson Mask did.