Dave Meltzer stuff

[khawk20]

You would just hope that people beating each other "to death" until they are stopped from doing so by a referee are fairly compensated for that.

 

If not...ug...It's the new boxing.

[Guest Staples]

You choose this job. You choose to be a fighter. And you agreed to the contract terms. And I don't know where it's written that's it an entitlement to be a fighter and be paid enough money to do it full time and not have to have another job. I know UFC makes a lot of money. This is probably not the best analogy in the world, but McDonalds makes a preposterous amount of money and you're still only going to make $12 an hour to stand behind the cash register, if that. So I just want to get [Mike's] thoughts on this because I kind of was a little bit irritated reading a lot of these guys complaining about how much money they're making and how they may have to get other jobs. That's the lot of life of most people in the world. You get a job and if it doesn't pay you what you feel you need, then you get another job. You don't complain about it publicly. I don't think...

[Guest Nell Santucci]

You choose this job. You choose to be a fighter. And you agreed to the contract terms. And I don't know where it's written that's it an entitlement to be a fighter and be paid enough money to do it full time and not have to have another job. I know UFC makes a lot of money. This is probably not the best analogy in the world, but McDonalds makes a preposterous amount of money and you're still only going to make $12 an hour to stand behind the cash register, if that. So I just want to get [Mike's] thoughts on this because I kind of was a little bit irritated reading a lot of these guys complaining about how much money they're making and how they may have to get other jobs. That's the lot of life of most people in the world. You get a job and if it doesn't pay you what you feel you need, then you get another job. You don't complain about it publicly. I don't think...

Wow, he really lives in the Ivory Tower. No one at McDonald's is making $12 per hour starting out, not even in Los Angeles. His point still stands, however, namely that profit of a company does not necessarily trickle down to the grunts of the company.

[sek69]

Not to mention it's been the elephant in the room for a long time that other than a few guys at the top, UFC pays shit relative to how much money comes in. What's really ironic is that Bryan has mention several times the costs fighters incur while training, like when UFC 151 got cancelled and pretty much fucked everyone on the card who'd invested in a training camp assuming they were getting a pay day out of it.

 

Plus I'm pretty sure Bryan was making "loltna" type jokes when whoever it was had to take a job selling sunglasses at the mall while knockouts champ.

[hammerva]

I eagerly await the tons of animated gifs of Dave getting into his bike crash that fucked up his ride and left the other guy in a bloody mess. I did like Bryan saying that he should have brought the blade since the other guy bled.

[KrisZ]

TV level boxers get paid more than UFC fighters by a large margin

[NintendoLogic]

When people are unhappy with their working conditions, they just find a new job. No one ever complains about it.

 

 

Add labor relations to the list of subjects Bryan knows jack shit about.

[kjh]

The standard UFC contract is ridiculously lopsided to the company to the point that several clauses are dubious in their legality.

[El-P]

So, UFC really *is* like pro-wrestling after all.

[Death From Above]

Yeah a lot of people bitch that players in baseball/football/basketball/hockey are overpaid in north America, but those player's unions do actually serve a purpose. I mean if your team generates $500 million in revenue during a season between TV, gates, merch etc... the unions see that about half of it go to the athletes responsible. I, personally, don't have a problem with that. It seems fair and right, more or less. I mean sure you can question whether there should be as much money in sport as there is. But the money is there whether you like it or not, so it might as well be split in a way that protects a lot of the fringe players and at least gives them their cut.

 

Fight games of all kinds never seem to work that way. I guess maybe it's a natural by-product of the everyone for themselves mentality of those sports, but the guys at the bottom of the TV ladder are really getting screwed.

[cabinboy454]

In the Bleacher Report article Lorenzo Fertitta states: "You're not going to put an event on television and, five years down the road, not have the rights to show that somewhere. You have to have those rights."

 

This made me wonder if there is a royalty system set up in UFC. If a fight is replayed or is on a DVD will the figter(s) receive a royalty payment?

[mookeighana]

In the Bleacher Report article Lorenzo Fertitta states: "You're not going to put an event on television and, five years down the road, not have the rights to show that somewhere. You have to have those rights."

 

This made me wonder if there is a royalty system set up in UFC. If a fight is replayed or is on a DVD will the figter(s) receive a royalty payment?

Looking at the Zuffa/Eddie Alvarez contract, Article I & II "Grant of Promotional Rights", specifically in section 2.3 states that "ZUFFA shall hold the Ancillary Rights described herein in perpetuity, which rights shall survive even the death of the Fighter." which includes pretty much any form of broadcast/re-broadcast of a match including about every form you can imagine (paragraph 2.3b) which includes:

 

all media, including, but not limited to, motion picture, radio, television (which term whenever referred to herein shall include, without limitation, l ive or delayed, intertactive, home Or theater, over-the-air broadcast, pay, pay-per-view, satellite, closed circuit, cable, subscription, Video On Demand, Near Video On Demand, Subscription Video On Demand, multi-point, master antenna, or other), telephone, wireless, Computer, CD-ROM, DVD, any and all lntemet applications (including. without limitation, netcasting, podcasting, direct down load, streamed webcasting, internet channels (e.g., Youtube) or any other form of digital media down load or web syndication), films and tapes for exhibition in any and all media and all gauges, including but not limited to video and audio cassettes and disks, home video and computer games, arcade video games, hand-held versions of video games, video slot machines, photographs (including raw footage, out-takes and negatives), merchandising and program rights,

The way I understood it, if you signed a contract like this, they basically don't owe any royalties at all for showing your match on TV, putting it on a DVD or anything else. Now, would that apply to pre-Zuffa UFC or bouts that were promoted by non-Zuffa groups like Pride or WEC which Zuffa now owns? I have no idea. However, they because have the rights to the fights as long as they promise "ZUFFA ... shall not authorize or permit the Identity of Fighter to be used as a direct or implied endorsement of any product, service, sponsor or commdity". (2.3f)

 

This would contrast with WWE which does pay royalties for putting your match on a DVD. You can review the WWE Contracts I posted on my site but in Triple H's 2012 renewal, section 7.3 covers Royalties and notes...

 

7.3 Royalties

 

In the event that the Intellectual Property is used alone or in conjunction with the intellectual property of Other PROMOTER Talent via a Product Sale, WRESTLER shall be paid a portion of the Products' Net Receipts (or a portion of a pool thereof established for the WRESTLER and all Other Promoter Talent) received by PROMOTER with respect to the Product Sale which portion shall be established from time to time by PROMOTER and be generally consistent with other of its top talent. “Products’ Net Receipts” means the gross amount received by PROMOTER or its affiliates (directly or from a licensee) in a Product Sale less actual expenses incurred by PROMOTER or its licensing agent in connection with such Product Sale and, in certain circumstances, an administrative fee (such as, for example, costs of goods sold, licensing agent percentages and allocable portions of marketing commitments paid by PROMOTER).

 

“Product Sale” shall mean the sale of any PROMOTER authorized product, merchandise, consumer material or good, which is made by or on behalf of PROMOTER.

 

“Other PROMOTER Talent” shall mean a professional wrestler who has an agreement with PROMOTER and to whom PROMOTER is obligated to pay royalties.

The "top talent" line might be specific to Hunter, but you get the idea hopefully.

 

If you look back at Raven's contract (from 2000/2001 timeperiod), you'll see in section 7.5 where they talk about allocating about a "quarter of the net receipts paid to the promoter" into a talent pool that would then pro-rate the money to the talent in accordance to some methodology depending on the format for the royalty.

[cabinboy454]

In the Bleacher Report article Lorenzo Fertitta states: "You're not going to put an event on television and, five years down the road, not have the rights to show that somewhere. You have to have those rights."

 

This made me wonder if there is a royalty system set up in UFC. If a fight is replayed or is on a DVD will the figter(s) receive a royalty payment?

 

The way I understood it, if you signed a contract like this, they basically don't owe any royalties at all for showing your match on TV, putting it on a DVD or anything else. Now, would that apply to pre-Zuffa UFC or bouts that were promoted by non-Zuffa groups like Pride or WEC which Zuffa now owns? I have no idea. However, they because have the rights to the fights as long as they promise "ZUFFA ... shall not authorize or permit the Identity of Fighter to be used as a direct or implied endorsement of any product, service, sponsor or commdity". (2.3f)

 

If UFC doesn't do royalties for DVDs or replays then how can Lorenzo Fertitta compare their contracts to Hollywood? Actors, writers, directors, etc. all receive royalties.

 

It does seem UFC is taking advantage of their fighters.

[Wahoos Leg]

I can tell you as an individual who runs his own MMA news site (might as well plug my own shit), it is very difficult to make money in the fight game. "Make money" being defined as significant take-home pay. One of my contributors debuted as a pro last year. He makes way more as a pro boxer.

[Guest Nell Santucci]

I listened to the Cornette interview with Meltzer and Alvarez. They were talking about using special attractions as draws, and Meltzer was trying to sell HHH as such. Cornette dismissed HHH as a special attraction. When Meltzer got argumentative, Cornette snarkly replied "He's about as much of a special attraction as the mold that shows up on my shower curtain from time to time."

 

In listening to it, I really felt like Cornette was a man behind the times, and it was sort of sad hearing him talk. Cornette hypothesizes that WWE has dominated the market for such a long time that they've managed to redefine pro-wrestling such that Cornette's version of wrestling is no longer marketable to the masses. Meltzer seems to think that it was inevitable that one promotion would end up dominating the industry because fans wind up choosing one over the other. I don't think Meltzer's conclusion is wrong, but I don't think it's the demand of fans that cause this as much as when company tends to gave a significant edge over the other company, what happens is that the superstars of that company tend toward where the money is in an industry that is and has always been superstar-driven. We've always seen such trends with ECW's superstars tending toward WCW when they could offer bigger money even if WCW wasn't necessarily that much stronger than WWF business wise or in the ratings. (Some might disagree with that assessment, but honestly, outside of 1996 and the first half of 1997, WWF ratings have never been bad on an absolute scale.) But that exception was also driven by the key artificial market factor of WCW being a trust fund baby. When business and wealth got concentrated toward one promotion, non-superstars tended toward that promotion, all the while WCW retained superstars of yesterday who had a limited shelf life. In other words, Meltzer's conclusion isn't wrong but his reasoning for that conclusion is off.

 

The problem with Cornette's view of the world is that his version of pro-wrestling can't draw. Sure, it drew back then, but the past had such little competition that wrestling inevitably enjoyed a broader share of the market. This is comparable with the history of PPV buyrates, where 80's numbers were high partly because the PPV Universe was much smaller, in other words, the expansion of the PPV Universe led to WWE carrying a smaller share of the market place. Nowadays, people want to see promos and big matches that are superstar-driven, not workrate driven.

 

Cornette seems to want WWE to promote itself as a real sport when the truth is that could never pass nowadays because of the ease of availability of information where anyone can find out wrestling is worked whereas back then, if you didn't come to a wrestling event with preconceived notions, you'd only find out it was a work if you saw wrestlers breaking kayfabe in the parking lot, which sometimes happened blatantly. Still, that type of information wouldn't hit the press. Besides, WWE is a publicly traded company which requires by law to present itself as not being a real sport. Also, there is a lot less liability to treating wrestling as being openly worked since they can turn a blind eye to early deaths and accidents because the public's infantile reasoning will always be that those deaths don't matter since wrestling is fake (WWE's premise). Lastly, as we all know, they'd pay less taxes to athletic commissions, which would matter significantly in times when business would be in a terrible recession and WWE would be losing money running live events.

[Johnny Sorrow]

I love Cornette. He's still funny, he still is a blast to listen to when he's talking about old school stuff or shit he likes. But like Bix said, at this point the bitching is counter productive and not good for the guy. And as far as I'm concerned, it's getting old. The well of "DID YA HEAR WHAT ANGRY CORNETTE SAID" shit is dried up. You can only run that gimmick so long before you become a parody.

 

And to be honest, as much as I love the guy...I met him a few times at ROH shows and he was always a great guy who remembered our few conversations, and I love his work... I gave up on the whole "Cult of Cornette" net shit when I read about how he would scream at Storm and Jericho because they wouldn't fuck the rats to get over with the girls old school style. And I think Lance was married.

[Jimmy Redman]

"Lance was married and I had standards, so we drove Corny nuts."

 

Yeah Jericho talks about that in his first book.

[hammerva]

I defy anything to listen to Bryan's Punk/Axel tag team like scenario involving football and not get amazing douche chills. Even Dave had a good 2 seconds of silence when trying to comprehend this stupidity. Bad enough he doesn't know how many yards a football field is.

[NintendoLogic]

I think Cornette's biggest problem is that he has that old-school carny mentality that wrestling was successful in the past because fans thought it was real. You'd think he'd know better having grown up watching all the silliness in Memphis.

[Loss]

Wrestling was better in the past because it worked harder at giving off the illusion of being real, but I agree that I don't think the masses ever thought that. Because the performers, scenarios, customs and working style were more plausible, it was easier to suspend disbelief though, and most things had way more heat. Still, I think in some ways there is more delusion than ever among people within wrestling, primarily because the fan base has gotten smart and often works the performers into doing stupid things instead of the other way around.

 

Here's a question just to play devil's advocate. Let's say we are right on the point of believability. Why is it so much harder to get a crowd hot than it used to be? Is it just a matter of changing culture, or have wrestlers gotten less sharp over time at manipulating emotions?

[Death From Above]

Wrestling will never be thought of as real again but that's no reason to break the goddamn fourth wall at every opportunity. I'm not a big fan of modern wrestling because it's written in a way that wouldn't pass a high school writing class. Pointing out its own fakeness is just dumb. Old style wrestling was always goofy and I guess probably akin to comic books, but at least it followed certain rules of basic writing.

[S.L.L.]

Here's a question just to play devil's advocate. Let's say we are right on the point of believability. Why is it so much harder to get a crowd hot than it used to be? Is it just a matter of changing culture, or have wrestlers gotten less sharp over time at manipulating emotions?

Wrestlers and promoters. The question is how much blame do you level at each group.

[Loss]

It almost didn't matter that no one really thought wrestling was real. Wrestling thought wrestling was real. To this day, there is a clear difference between wrestlers who are inspired and connected to the material and those who aren't.

[Guest Staples]

I'm sure it's been brought up before, but has anyone asked Cornette why he does so many shoot and non-kayfabe interviews if he's so unhappy with the curtain being drawn back? It's not like it's a

[Ditch]

Only uber-smart fans ever watch a shoot, so it's not like he's doing much/any harm there. Although his WWF 'shoot' promos are something else entirely.

 

Also, even though the overwhelming majority of the public knew wrestling was fake, I think there was a clear subsection of true marks (and kids) that helped form a baseline amount of heat. Once you have that it's easier for 'smart' fans to feel comfortable cheering/booing in general.