Dave Meltzer stuff

[Matt D]

The big problem is that, if you listen to Dave a little, it's not hard to figure out HOW to talk to him. There are ways, that if you were to say things, he'd understand and would get past the semantics. Bryan can't or won't do that at all.

[BillThompson]

The big problem is that, if you listen to Dave a little, it's not hard to figure out HOW to talk to him. There are ways, that if you were to say things, he'd understand and would get past the semantics. Bryan can't or won't do that at all.

 

This is something I've been trying to get down in my limited interactions with Dave online. He's like a bull in a china shop sometimes when it comes to his opinions, but he's a lot more receptive when you give him his space and don't attempt to butt heads with him I've found.

[KrisZ]

The big problem is that, if you listen to Dave a little, it's not hard to figure out HOW to talk to him. There are ways, that if you were to say things, he'd understand and would get past the semantics. Bryan can't or won't do that at all.

 

Yeah but they have been working together for almost 15 years

[anarchistxx]

I know New Japan has a cult following online today, but clearly there was more interest in Japanese wrestling 20 years ago with hardcore fans

 

Is that true? The number of clued up 'smart fans' following Puroresu in 1994 might have been higher as a proportion, but I would wager in terms of actual number way more people outside Japan are watching modern NJPW these days. There are way more smart fans, way more internet fans, way more people aware of wrestling in Japan. Dragon Gate can draw really good numbers in the UK - would Michinoku Pro have been getting similar crowds in 1996 if they came over?

 

Dave's point has some merit even if it is flawed. You see a similar thing in music - there are fewer superstar bands with a mystique and an aura in 2014 than in 1974, partly because of the easy availability of music. It is easy to acquire an album, easy to interact with the artist through social media - so seeing someone like Bob Dylan or The Rolling Stones feels way more special than seeing someone like Mumford & Sons or Coldplay who have a far bigger reach in the current market. So even if Tanahashi is bigger than Liger right now, Liger still retains a mystique and generates an excitement because he is from a bygone era when things were less obtainable.

[Dylan Waco]

Wrestling is also way less hot in Japan than it used to be, to an almost absurd degree. And hardcore fandom is FAR less of a monolith than it was before (i.e. the number of people who publicly are indifferent to NJPW heavies today v. the number of hardcore fans indifferent to AJPW heavies back then seems to me to be much larger).

[ohtani's jacket]

He also said Tanahashi was much bigger in Japan than Liger ever was.

 

Liger doesn't have the greatest rep among Japanese hardcores. I'm not sure why, but they always play down his importance. Perhaps Dave has heard something similar. I will say from my experience that Liger is not a hugely recognisable star in Japan, but neither is Tanahashi.

[evilclown]

 

 

Is that true? The number of clued up 'smart fans' following Puroresu in 1994 might have been higher as a proportion, but I would wager in terms of actual number way more people outside Japan are watching modern NJPW these days. There are way more smart fans, way more internet fans, way more people aware of wrestling in Japan.

 

 

I'm not sure that's true. The number of wrestling fans is much lower than it was in the Attitude era. Also, say what you will about Nitro, but it created an appetite for wrestling from other cultures. There are surely more wrestling fans online today—but there's no indication they are interested in puroresu. Who is pointing them that way?

[kjh]

 

He also said Tanahashi was much bigger in Japan than Liger ever was.

 

Liger doesn't have the greatest rep among Japanese hardcores. I'm not sure why, but they always play down his importance. Perhaps Dave has heard something similar. I will say from my experience that Liger is not a hugely recognisable star in Japan, but neither is Tanahashi.

 

 

That makes sense given that Liger's just been a guy on the card for most of the last decade. Still, I guess Liger is better known due to the comic book gimmick and being the top junior heavyweight in the country when wrestling was much, much hotter.

[anarchistxx]

I'm not sure that's true. The number of wrestling fans is much lower than it was in the Attitude era.

 

Yes. But the number of wrestling fans with an internet connection and access to wrestling news sites is much higher. The number of people discussing and reading about wrestling on the internet is much higher. The number of people with the opportunity to download wrestling matches from other cultures or watch them on YouTube in the attitude era was virtually zero.

 

Out of 10 million people who watch Raw in 1999, how many go on the internet afterwards and talk about it? A few thousand probably. Out of the 5 million people who watch Raw in 2014, how many go on the internet and talk about it? Close to a million probably.

 

So my point stands. As a percentage, more smart fans were aware of Puroresu in 1999. As a plain number, a lot more wrestling fans have exposure to it now. So the easy availability of Tanahashi matches works against him when it comes to a live pop - he was no aura and mystique. Whereas Liger comes from an era that has been romanticized by smart fans for years, where you would watch his matches in blurry quality on a six hour VHS comp, where even reading about him was an effort let alone getting hold of the matches. He was a more valuable commodity to super fans and that was probably part of the reason behind his reaction compared to current NJ stars.

 

 

 

Also, say what you will about Nitro, but it created an appetite for wrestling from other cultures.There are surely more wrestling fans online today—but there's no indication they are interested in puroresu. Who is pointing them that way?

 

They can find their own way, we are in an information age. CM Punk and Bryan Daniel and the rest of the pushed indy stars have opened up ROH and indy wrestling to wrestling fans who only follow WWE - a quick glance at their Wikipedia page will tell them about their legendary matches and careers before the WWE. Maybe they check out some ROH on YouTube with a single click. Then ROH leads you to Dragon Gate USA and then to NOAH or NJPW. It is easy to research anything now, and get match suggestions or video suggestions. Just researching the G2S could lead you to KENTA which could open up your interest.

 

Compare that to 1997. You see Yugi Nagata on Nitro, it piques your interest in Japanese wrestling. Where do you go from there? You might not have an internet connection. You might not have access to magazines, or be clued up on the smart fan community. It is far easier now for a wrestling fan to stumble accross Puroresu than it was in 1997, where only the really hardcore fans knew about it.

 

Even if you got to know about it, getting hold of the footage was a real effort. You'd find a seller online or through trading communities; who knew if you could trust him? You had to pay him without the convenience of Paypal or an internet banking. You had to wait a while for the footage to show up. The quality might be iffy. The price would be high, especially if you wanted a custom comp. It was time consuming for the seller to make the tape. Compare that to now, when a few clicks of a button can lead you to virtually any match that has happened anywhere in the world, and it is hard to argue that the accesibility ot Japanese wrestling is lower now. So I'd argue that a lot more US wrestling fans actively watch Japanese wrestling now than in 1999. The difference is they aren't as invested in it. It doesn't mean as much to them. They can just watch five minutes here or five minutes there.

 

Which is half the point. If you can click a button to get Okada and Tanahashi with no effort or cost, are they really stars to you? Compared to Liger, who seems more exclusive, with a greater aura, from a legendary era.

[Dooley]

Jushin Thunder Liger has been a name to American fans for 22 years the others not so much. Liger competed on WCW PPV's and TV on a sporadic basis for 5 years

 

This seems to be the obvious answer.

[evilclown]

 

Out of 10 million people who watch Raw in 1999, how many go on the internet afterwards and talk about it? A few thousand probably. Out of the 5 million people who watch Raw in 2014, how many go on the internet and talk about it? Close to a million probably.

 

 

The internet is about eight times bigger than it was in 1999, much of that growth coming in China, India and the rest of the non-English speaking world. It's much larger, I'll grant you that.

 

But your premise that the internet wrestling audience has grown 1000 times in the same 15 years? I don't see why that's believable. Especially when the actual wrestling audience is a fraction of what it was in the Monday Night Wars.

 

The two biggest wrestling site, by the way, are Bleacher Report and WWE.com. Neither audience has shown much interest in puroresu. Is there evidence of more than a niche fandom at any major wrestling site?

 

 

As a percentage, more smart fans were aware of Puroresu in 1999. As a plain number, a lot more wrestling fans have exposure to it now.

 

 

More fans may have access to it now. That's not the same thing as exposure.

 

They can find their own way, we are in an information age.

 

 

They can. Does that mean they will? You have access to Turkish game shows and Spanish news programs too. Do you watch them? Why would you?

 

CM Punk and Bryan Daniel and the rest of the pushed indy stars have opened up ROH and indy wrestling to wrestling fans who only follow WWE

 

 

And yet ROH has struggled as Punk and Bryan have risen the ranks. Where's the indication that WWE fans are seeking out these other groups? Quite the opposite. And ROH has the advantage of being, you know, in English.

 

Compare that to now, when a few clicks of a button can lead you to virtually any match that has happened anywhere in the world, and it is hard to argue that the accesibility ot Japanese wrestling is lower now

 

 

No one is arguing that except your strawman. The argument is that interest is lower. You haven't really offered any compelling evidence to the contrary.

 

Which is half the point. If you can click a button to get Okada and Tanahashi with no effort or cost, are they really stars to you? Compared to Liger, who seems more exclusive, with a greater aura, from a legendary era.

 

 

This is a baffling argument. Fans saw Hogan by clicking on their televisions. Same with Rock and Austin. They see Daniel Bryan on TV every week. And, yet, stars got pops. Huge ones.

 

If the Japanese guys didn't get a pop, it's because no one cared. Simple as that.

[Loss]

Liger was one of the best wrestlers in the world in a time when that really meant something because wrestling was great in a lot of places. He had a long run as a great worker too. It has nothing to do with paying or not paying to see him.

[ohtani's jacket]

 

 

He also said Tanahashi was much bigger in Japan than Liger ever was.

 

Liger doesn't have the greatest rep among Japanese hardcores. I'm not sure why, but they always play down his importance. Perhaps Dave has heard something similar. I will say from my experience that Liger is not a hugely recognisable star in Japan, but neither is Tanahashi.

 

 

That makes sense given that Liger's just been a guy on the card for most of the last decade. Still, I guess Liger is better known due to the comic book gimmick and being the top junior heavyweight in the country when wrestling was much, much hotter.

 

 

The comic book's not famous and the Liger gimmick came along after World Pro Wrestling was a big Friday night prime time show. I'd say Liger is more famous with wrestling fans than the general public. You never really see his image or mask around anywhere like you do with Showa era guys.

[Loss]

At the beginning of New Japan Classics, they show clips of a few guys to their entrance music -- Choshu, Muto, Sasaki and Liger. He also had his own series of New Japan Classics airing his old matches long after his best days were over. Why would they do that if he wasn't seen at that level? I don't really think he was a big deal in the mainstream either, but his name clearly means something to wrestling fans in Japan ... or at least people in television who put out the Classics shows think he does.

[ohtani's jacket]

I'm just relaying what I've been told. Wrestling Classics was kind of a minor thing. The subscriber base when it aired would have been fairly small.

[Loss]

Mike Sempervieve seems like an incredibly nice guy. That said, his "positive spin" style doesn't really mesh with Dave's style, and he seems nervous on the air.

[cm funk]

 

I know New Japan has a cult following online today, but clearly there was more interest in Japanese wrestling 20 years ago with hardcore fans

 

Is that true? The number of clued up 'smart fans' following Puroresu in 1994 might have been higher as a proportion, but I would wager in terms of actual number way more people outside Japan are watching modern NJPW these days. There are way more smart fans, way more internet fans, way more people aware of wrestling in Japan. Dragon Gate can draw really good numbers in the UK - would Michinoku Pro have been getting similar crowds in 1996 if they came over?

 

Dave's point has some merit even if it is flawed. You see a similar thing in music - there are fewer superstar bands with a mystique and an aura in 2014 than in 1974, partly because of the easy availability of music. It is easy to acquire an album, easy to interact with the artist through social media - so seeing someone like Bob Dylan or The Rolling Stones feels way more special than seeing someone like Mumford & Sons or Coldplay who have a far bigger reach in the current market. So even if Tanahashi is bigger than Liger right now, Liger still retains a mystique and generates an excitement because he is from a bygone era when things were less obtainable.

 

 

I agree with this.

 

I also think the popularity of NJPW is kind of overblown. Meltzer loves the shit and pimps the hell out of it....and there are hardcore pockets of fans who love it.....but that is a tiny minority of fans. Personally, I like what I've seen of current NJPW, but the Tanahashi dick sucking is way over the top, I don't think he's all that great to be honest, certainly not at the level that Meltzer and his blind followers put him at.....and personally I think the NJPW "big match" style is the same as the WWE big match style more or less....so I laugh my ass off when people complain about WWE style and praise NJPW style in the same breath. Personally, I think the NJPW stuff is way way worse with all the finisher kickouts and headdrops and all that nonsense. I don't really care for it. I dig "fighting spirit" but they take it to ridiculous levels and I'm just like, "really? can the match end now please?" And it's extra shitty when Okada and Tanahashi have such weak finishers, after doing a bunch of stuff in the match that looks way cooler and more brutal and finish-ish

[fxnj]

 

 

Out of 10 million people who watch Raw in 1999, how many go on the internet afterwards and talk about it? A few thousand probably. Out of the 5 million people who watch Raw in 2014, how many go on the internet and talk about it? Close to a million probably.

 

 

The internet is about eight times bigger than it was in 1999, much of that growth coming in China, India and the rest of the non-English speaking world. It's much larger, I'll grant you that.

 

But your premise that the internet wrestling audience has grown 1000 times in the same 15 years? I don't see why that's believable. Especially when the actual wrestling audience is a fraction of what it was in the Monday Night Wars.

 

The two biggest wrestling site, by the way, are Bleacher Report and WWE.com. Neither audience has shown much interest in puroresu. Is there evidence of more than a niche fandom at any major wrestling site?

 

I think Bryan mentioned once that in terms of sheer numbers, there really hasn't been that much of a drop off since the attitude era. They were drawing ~5 million viewers in 1999 and that's about what they continue to draw in 2014. The ratings just don't show that because there's way more homes with TV's compared to back then. In terms of sheer exposure, I wouldn't be surprised if they're reaching more people now given the number of networks they produce content for compared to just having Raw and Heat on USA.

 

For evidence of a more than niche puro fandom, just look at the view count for some of the big matches on Youtube. KENTA/Marufuji from 2013 currently has around 100k views, so unless you're saying 1/50 of those casual attitude era fans had internet access and was willing to pay the 20$ for a tape, that pretty much proves there's a lot more interest now. Sure, there's definitely views from China and Japan, but that's just 1 match from a company that some people here like to think no one is paying attention to, so it evens out. Also, I wouldn't call WWE.com a good indicator of interest considering that the kind of fans who go there and keep up with the ridiculous amount of content WWE produces probably simply don't have time to bother with anything else if they have any real-life obligations.

[Ditch]

Mike Sempervieve seems like an incredibly nice guy.

I can confirm that this is the case. He's good people.

[evilclown]

I think Bryan mentioned once that in terms of sheer numbers, there really hasn't been that much of a drop off since the attitude era. They were drawing ~5 million viewers in 1999 and that's about what they continue to draw in 2014.

 

 

Between the two major companies wrestling had a much larger audience in the Monday Night Wars era. Come on.

 

KENTA/Marufuji from 2013 currently has around 100k views, so unless you're saying 1/50 of those casual attitude era fans had internet access and was willing to pay the 20$ for a tape, that pretty much proves there's a lot more interest now.

 

 

That's funny. I'm not sure if you're kidding or not.

 

Also, I wouldn't call WWE.com a good indicator of interest considering that the kind of fans who go there and keep up with the ridiculous amount of content WWE produces probably simply don't have time to bother with anything else if they have any real-life obligations.

 

 

So the biggest wrestling site in the world isn't a good indicator of interest in wrestling? Come on.

[goc]

And it's extra shitty when Okada and Tanahashi have such weak finishers, after doing a bunch of stuff in the match that looks way cooler and more brutal and finish-ish

 

This is like one of my biggest problems trying to get into modern puro, or even a lot of modern indies. I feel like your most hurty looking offense should be the finish but for some reason that doesn't seem to be a very popular concept in today's wrestling.

[dawho5]

Yeah, that. I'm pretty much 100% in agreement with goc.

[Johnny Sorrow]

Mike Sempervieve seems like an incredibly nice guy. That said, his "positive spin" style doesn't really mesh with Dave's style, and he seems nervous on the air.

If only there was a positive spin style podcaster out there who is completely comfortable on the air...

[Ditch]

Okada's finisher is often accompanied with a massive bump, even if it's low-impact by itself. On the other hand, Tanahashi using a frog splash as a finish in Japan is and will always be a bit confusing.

[cm funk]

it's not even a good frog splash. say what you will about RVD but his frog splash looks killer. Eddie's frog splash was violent. Tanahashi.....not so much.