Dave Meltzer stuff

[WashingtonFB]

List of male workers better than Roman?

 

AJ, Cesaro, Sheamus, Brock, Zayn...?

[Loss]

I think Reigns is better week-to-week than Zayn. Zayn doesn't seem to have ***1/2-**** matches on TV all that often.

[goc]

Honestly the only person I think you could put ahead of Reigns right now is AJ. At least when it comes down to both consistency and delivering in big matches.

[Mrzfn]

I would like to see a chart of all the 3.5 star plus ratings Dave has given to each top WWE guy since The Shield debuted.

 

Ask and you shall receive! I’ve included anyone who could be considered a top or significant WWE talent. Ratings are from WWE matches only, so I haven’t gone back to dig up all of Nakamura’s New Japan rankings for example. Started counting from the Shield’s first official match in December of 2012. Full total per rank is regular text, with singles match total in parantheses.

 

Seth Rollins

Total: 38

Singles: 17

4.75 – 1

4.5 – 7 (1)

4.25 – 5 (3)

4 – 12 (8)

3.75 – 7 (3)

3.5 – 6 (2)

 

Roman Reigns

Total: 37

Singles: 12

4.5 – 7 (2)

4.25 – 3 (1)

4 – 10 (3)

3.75 – 9 (5)

3.5 – 8 (1)

 

John Cena

Total: 35

Singles: 27

4.75 – 1

4.5 – 8 (7)

4.25 – 7 (7)

4 – 4 (3)

3.75 – 4 (2)

3.5 – 11 (8)

 

Dean Ambrose

Total: 33

Singles: 13

4.5 – 5

4.25 – 7 (3)

4 – 7 (3)

3.75 – 9 (4)

3.5 – 5 (3)

 

Cesaro

Total: 30

Singles: 12

4.5 – 1

4.25 – 8 (6)

4 – 4 (2)

3.75 – 7 (2)

3.5 – 10 (2)

 

Randy Orton

Total: 24

Singles: 12

4.5 – 3

4 – 9 (5)

3.75 – 4 (2)

3.5 – 8 (5)

 

Daniel Bryan

Total: 23

Singles: 12

4.5 – 5 (2)

4.25 – 3 (2)

4 – 6 (4)

3.75 – 5 (2)

3.5 – 4 (2)

 

Kevin Owens

Total: 22

Singles: 15

4.5 – 4 (3)

4.25 – 7 (4)

4 – 3 (1)

3.75 – 4 (3)

3.5 – 4 (4)

 

Sami Zayn

Total: 17

Singles: 11

4.75 – 1 (1)

4.5 – 4 (2)

4.25 – 3 (1)

4 – 3 (2)

3.5 – 6 (5)

 

Sheamus

Total: 17

Singles: 6

4.5 – 1

4 – 4 (2)

3.75 – 5 (2)

3.5 – 7 (2)

 

Dolph Ziggler

Total: 16

Singles: 8

4.5 – 2

4.25 – 2

4 – 2 (1)

3.75 – 3 (3)

3.5 – 7 (4)

 

Bray Wyatt

Total: 15

Singles: 7

4.5 – 2 (1)

4.25 – 2

4 – 4 (1)

3.75 – 4 (3)

3.5 – 3 (2)

 

Chris Jericho

Total: 14

Singles: 7

4.5 – 1 (1)

4.25 – 1

4 – 7 (3)

3.75 – 3 (3)

3.5 – 2

 

Luke Harper

Total: 13

Singles: 1

4.5 – 2

4.25 – 3

4 – 3

3.75 – 3 (1)

3.5 – 2

 

Cody Rhodes

Total: 13

Singles: 0

4.25 – 2

4 – 3

3.75 – 2

3.5 – 6

 

AJ Styles

Total: 12

Singles: 9

4.5 – 2 (2)

4.25 – 1 (1)

4 – 3 (1)

3.75 – 5 (5)

3.5 – 1

 

Neville

Total: 12

Singles: 9

4.75 – 1 (1)

4.5 – 1

4.25 – 1 (1)

4 – 4 (3)

3.5 – 5 (4)

 

Finn Balor

Total: 11

Singles: 10

4.25 – 3 (3)

4 – 3 (3)

3.75 – 1

3.5 – 4 (4)

 

Brock Lesnar

Total: 10

Singles: 6

4.75 – 1

4.5 – 3 (1)

4.25 – 2 (2)

4 – 3 (2)

3.5 – 1 (1)

 

Kofi Kingston

Total: 10

Singles: 2

4.5 – 1

4.25 – 2 (1)

4 – 1

3.75 – 2 (1)

3.5 – 4

 

CM Punk

Total: 9

Singles: 6

4.5 – 5 (4)

4 – 1 (1)

3.75 – 1

3.5 – 2 (1)

 

Kane

Total: 9

Singles: 2

4.5 – 2

4 – 3

3.5 – 4 (2)

 

Alberto Del Rio

Total: 8

Singles: 4

4.25 – 1

4 – 2

3.5 – 5 (4)

 

Ryback

Total: 8

Singles: 1

4.5 – 2

4 – 1

3.75 – 2

3.5 – 3 (1)

 

Triple H

Total: 6

Singles: 3

4.5 – 1

4.25 – 2 (2)

4 – 3 (1)

 

Rusev

Total: 6

Singles: 3

4.5 – 1

4 – 1

3.75 – 1

3.5 – 3 (3)

 

Christian

Total: 5

Singles: 1

4.5 – 1

3.75 – 2

3.5 – 2 (1)

 

Shinsuke Nakamura

Total: 4

Singles: 4

4.5 – 1 (1)

4.25 – 1 (1)

4 – 1 (1)

3.75 – 1 (1)

 

Samoa Joe

Total: 4

Singles: 4

4.25 – 1 (1)

4 – 1 (1)

3.5 – 2 (2)

 

The Big Show

Total: 4

Singles: 1

4.5 – 1

4 – 2 (1)

3.5 – 1

 

Wade Barrett

Total: 4

Singles: 1

4.25 – 1

3.75 – 1

3.5 – 2 (1)

 

The Miz

Total: 4

Singles: 0

4.5 – 1

4.25 – 1

4 – 1

3.5 – 1

 

Big E

Total: 4

Singles: 0

4.25 – 1

3.75 – 1

3.5 – 2

 

The Undertaker

Total: 3

Singles: 3

4.5 – 1 (1)

4.25 – 1 (1)

4 – 1 (1)

 

The Rock

Total: 3

Singles: 3

4 – 1 (1)

3.5 – 2 (2)

 

Batista

Total: 3

Singles: 0

4.5 – 2

4 – 1

 

Mark Henry

Total: 3

Singles: 0

4.5 – 1

4 – 2

 

Rey Mysterio

Total: 3

Singles: 0

3.5 – 3

 

Rob Van Dam

Total: 2

Singles: 0

4.5 – 2

 

Austin Aries

Total: 1

Singles: 1

3.75 – 1 (1)

 

Apollo Crews

Total: 1

Singles: 1

3.5 – 1 (1)

 

Kalisto

Total: 1

Singles: 0

4.25 – 1

[Cox]

Roman Reigns is a convenient scapegoat on which people project everything they don't like about WWE, a role formerly filled by John Cena. At this point I just think, Jeez, yes, Daniel Bryan should have won the 2015 Royal Rumble, but is that really worth a nearly two-year temper tantrum?

Should Daniel Bryan have won the 2015 Royal Rumble, though? His career ended 3 months later. I think time had vindicated WWE's decision not to have Daniel Bryan win. I think their biggest mistake, and I've said this since last year, was putting Bryan in there in the first place, as it was a total no-win situation for Reigns. They should have put Bryan in an undercard match or held his return until after the Rumble. If Daniel Bryan isn't in the 2015 Royal Rumble, the crowd doesn't turn against Reigns that night, and it's possible some of the backlash is averted.

[Jimmy James]

Daniel Bryan in his mid-30s with an iffy health prognosis was probably not a good choice for the long-term face of the company, but booking the Rumble the way they did was one of the most predictable disasters ever.

[goc]

Yea I've never thought that the mistake was not having Bryan win the Royal Rumble it was stupidly having him come back like 2 weeks prior to the Rumble instead of just holding it off until afterwards.

[Jimmy James]

kind of related, but I've thought about something: Indie "workrate" style is a problem, because it means that by the times someone's paid enough dues for the fans to think they "deserve it!", they're probably going to have iffy long-term prospects because of how destructive the ROH/PWG/etc workrate can be on a body by the time you hit your 30s.

[goc]

kind of related, but I've thought about something: Indie "workrate" style is a problem, because it means that by the times someone's paid enough dues for the fans to think they "deserve it!", they're probably going to have iffy long-term prospects because of how destructive the ROH/PWG/etc workrate can be on a body by the time you hit your 30s.

I've been thinking about this too as the talking point that "guys are used up and broke down by the time they get to the main roster from NXT" has started to go around. Well if a year-18 months in NXT is too long and leads to guys being broken down isn't that an indication that the style in NXT is not sustainable? Or that the guys they are bringing in are too broken down in the first place to be someone the company should invest in long term?

[Jimmy James]

In some sense, I think the love of "workrate" and the obsession that wrestlers "Deserve" their push are inherently self-destructive together.

 

Take two guys who WWE brought up, Roman Reigns and Rusev. I can imagine Rusev doing his awesome thing in his mid-40s. I can even imagine Roman throwing a few Superman punches at that age. Can you imagine Seth Rollins working a match with a 45-year-old's body? Or, god forbid, Kevin Owens?

[Cox]

Yea I've never thought that the mistake was not having Bryan win the Royal Rumble it was stupidly having him come back like 2 weeks prior to the Rumble instead of just holding it off until afterwards.

What they really should have done is swapped Bryan and Cena. Bryan vs Lesnar has an incredible story of Bryan as the ultimate underdog trying to beat the beast incarnate, the same storyline they were going to do at SummerSlam. There would have been no fan backlash for Cena getting dumped in the Rumble, and in fact they could have had Rusev do it to set up their Wrestlemania match. The only reason not to do Bryan vs Lesnar is the fear that Lesnar's physical style would probably hurt Bryan, but considering WWE put Bryan in a ladder match at Wrestlemania, clearly they weren't exactly looking out for the guy's long term health anyway. Their stubborn reluctance that Reigns had to win, and Bryan had to get thrown out early in the Rumble, is the reason Reigns hasn't gotten over to this day, and it easily could have been averted.

[FMKK]

In some sense, I think the love of "workrate" and the obsession that wrestlers "Deserve" their push are inherently self-destructive together.

 

Take two guys who WWE brought up, Roman Reigns and Rusev. I can imagine Rusev doing his awesome thing in his mid-40s. I can even imagine Roman throwing a few Superman punches at that age. Can you imagine Seth Rollins working a match with a 45-year-old's body? Or, god forbid, Kevin Owens?

 

I also think Reigns and Rusev are better workers for foregoing the workrate style. Would they be more appreciated if they had just been in ROH for a year before WWE?

[Migs]

 

In some sense, I think the love of "workrate" and the obsession that wrestlers "Deserve" their push are inherently self-destructive together.

 

Take two guys who WWE brought up, Roman Reigns and Rusev. I can imagine Rusev doing his awesome thing in his mid-40s. I can even imagine Roman throwing a few Superman punches at that age. Can you imagine Seth Rollins working a match with a 45-year-old's body? Or, god forbid, Kevin Owens?

I also think Reigns and Rusev are better workers for foregoing the workrate style. Would they be more appreciated if they had just been in ROH for a year before WWE?

 

 

To an extent. See, e.g., Moose.

[Mrzfn]

I honestly feel like the Daniel Bryan factor is being overemphasized at this point, at least as far as it comes to Roman Reigns. The Bryan thing was bad timing, of course, but mostly the complaints I hear about Reigns are the same we heard about Cena in his early years. People don't like his wrestling style, or think it is limited. People think his push was overdone or inorganic. Even plenty of people who think he's ok but like others more and feel his push is costing others their spots. Cena was pretty consistently good by what, 2007? But he didn't win over that section of the audience until just a year or two ago (for many he still hasn't). I feel putting too much emphasis on the Bryan incident is very reductive.

[Loss]

The reason I say the Bryan incident is because Roman Reigns was cheered after Rollins turned on him in 2014 all the way up until the Royal Rumble.

[sek69]

That's only a portion of the story though. It wasn't just people booing Roman because he wasn't Bryan, it was because the company was making a deliberate effort to push the guy they wanted at the expense of the guy the crowd clearly wanted. All the self serving "we listen to the fans, we do this all for you" speeches came home to roost for WWE when the fans saw it for the bullshit it was. That's a part of the whole Roman saga that seems to be surprisingly glossed over to me, at the root it was a case of a company digging in their heels and doubling down when their fanbase was clearly rejecting what they wanted to do.

[Mrzfn]

The reason I say the Bryan incident is because Roman Reigns was cheered after Rollins turned on him in 2014 all the way up until the Royal Rumble.

 

I'll concede this to some extent, but Cena got cheered at the start of his super push too. You could argue that was the moment when his push changed from "we will push this guy you like" to "we will push this guy at the expense of those you like more", or at least the perception of it, same as Cena ran into when he started to go over Jericho and Angle and such and people started to see him as Undeserving.

[sek69]

WWE seems to think there's something wrong with going with the hot hand if it's not someone they've anointed, which is kind of opposite of what the point of pro wrestling is supposed to be. They'd rather punish someone who got over on their own without the Hand of God guiding them than run with it and potentially make money off of it.

[Strummer]

I think Dave said that it was all the way back in 2012 that Vince and Hunter made the decision that Reigns was going to be the guy. Vince initially wanted to go with Big E but Hunter convinced him to go with Roman

[elliott]

WWE doesn't get my $10 a month but practically every WWE match I want to watch would either have Roman Reigns or Sasha Banks. I could probably add Nakamura to make it a list of 3. So if they want my $10 I demand more Roman Reigns

[NotJayTabb]

List of male workers better than Roman?

 

AJ, Cesaro, Sheamus, Brock, Zayn...?

I don't think it's inaccurate to trim that to just AJ and Sheamus. Roman had one of the best matches of 2015 against the Big Show. He's had the only good Brock match since the return vs Cena. He had MoTN 3 PPV's in a row last year. I think he's at the stage where I can't think of anyone in the company he couldn't have a decent match with.

[Loss]

When I watched how he worked with Big Cass, I'll admit I did think, "Wow, imagine if Roman Reigns would have been able to work with Roman Reigns."

[NintendoLogic]

The thing is, all of Roman's singles matches prior to the Rumble were pretty underwhelming, so it was easy to see him as a guy who looked good when he was protected in the Shield but had been exposed in singles. Once "smart" fans peg you as someone who can't work, that reputation is nearly impossible to overcome.

[Loss]

What singles matches are those? He had only actually had one pay-per-view singles match before the Rumble, which was a win over Randy Orton that got **** in the WON. The line on him in late 2014 wasn't that of a guy who'd been exposed at all. He wasn't red hot and on fire, but he'd been out a huge chunk of that time with an injury anyway.

[NintendoLogic]

He had a pretty good number of singles matches on Raw and Smackdown.

http://www.profightdb.com/wrestlers/roman-reigns-6728.html?year=2014

How many of them can you recall with any degree of specificity? Exactly.

 

Meltzer was an outlier on Reigns/Orton. Scott Keith's comments far more closely capture the general consensus:

I dunno about this Reigns push, dude. This was a really slow-paced match and the fans were more into Orton’s comeback. I was certainly not particularly invested in the finish or anything. This was certainly not the star-making performance they were probably looking for. **1/2

 

And he came in second to Kane for Most Overrated in the 2014 WON awards.