Dave Meltzer stuff

[Eduardo]

I love Matt Riddle the pro wrestler, and think the world of him, but he had several fights in his UFC career where he was the Dolph Ziggler of the promotion, intentionally trying to 'steal the show', hamming it up and it was pretty cringe-worthy at times. Hard to blame him though considering how underpaid UFC fighters are and he was just trying to get a bonus out there.

[stro]

Does Nick Diaz flipping people off and taking a nap in the cage, or Anderson Silva's Matrix moves count as character work in the octagon?

[Eduardo]

Do they have a responsibility to get over their opponents in their promos and not hit on obvious weaknesses? Do they have a responsibility to get the other guy more over if that's what is best for business and the promoter wants to build around that guy?

 

Maybe not responsibility, but that's a common thing we see in combat sports and isn't just a pro wrestling thing, which is why I get annoyed when Meltzer uses basic stuff like this to act wrestling and MMA are the same thing or whatever. GSP was out there acting like Dan Hardy was a killer with horrifying KO power, when we all knew how limited as fuck he was. Promoters and stars constantly act like lower-level fighters are better than they are. See also Victor Ortiz, Julio Cesar Chavez Jr., Tito Ortiz, a bunch of UFC heavyweights, etc.

 

Joe Rogan is the biggest carny color commentator out there, it's pretty embarrassing. Common MMA and boxing tricks as old as time, not exclusive to pro wrestling. But yeah Meltzer's MMA analysis is limited and one-dimensional, he's kinda lucky that the MMA media treats him so nicely and respect him.

[stro]

Fighters actually building up their opponent in promos is exceedingly rare in MMA. Every promo in a UFC package is exactly the same: I'm going to beat his ass, I'm going to hurt him, he can't compete with me, he's nothing (or she), he's afraid of me, while you have Dana and Rogan actually talk people up. MMA promos are almost exclusively burials.

[Loss]

To be fair, they have gone that way in wrestling in recent times too. But everyone understands how that's a bad thing. I think.

[stro]

It's not a bad thing in MMA, though. Fans want brutal shit talking bravado, not "he's a great competitor but I believe my skills are better than his" type promos.

[BrianB]

Fighters actually building up their opponent in promos is exceedingly rare in MMA. Every promo in a UFC package is exactly the same: I'm going to beat his ass, I'm going to hurt him, he can't compete with me, he's nothing (or she), he's afraid of me, while you have Dana and Rogan actually talk people up. MMA promos are almost exclusively burials.

 

It's a mix, honestly. Jon Jones doesn't usually bury opponents, but he does push that he's going to win and is superior. McGregor does more burial style. GSP is probably the most traditional babyface in his promos, but he's still pushing that he believes in himself and if he executes *insert his favorite metaphor about math equations and variables* he'll win.

 

I do think there's a segment of the wrestling audience that wants more of someone who goes out and kicks ass and talks a lot of shit/brings a badass factor. IMO, beyond the simple nostalgia, that's part of why Goldberg has worked as a top tier face since his return and a guy like Seth Rollins has struggled.

[stro]

That GSP/Bisping conference was hilarious.

 

GSP is like "Oooh, maybe you should sleep since you drank last night" and "I will going to kick yer butt"

 

And Bisping just calls him a fucking lizard.

[Loss]

It's just interesting that when people like HHH and Stephanie cut promos like that in wrestling dressing people down, the same people who love that stuff in MMA tear them apart. What's the difference?

[stro]

Well, one is not real, and the other is mostly real. The only fight that matters in MMA is the last fight you had. A promo that shits on a guy hard enough in wrestling can ruin the rest of their career. MMA is inherently more about macho bravado, but guys who talk mad shit and then lose tend to lose face with the audience until their next fight, and shit talkers who routinely lose turn into jokes with the audience the same way that a guy who constantly gets shit on and then loses does in wrestling.

 

In the specific case of HHH/Steph, it's really confusing from a character standpoint that they would go out of their way to make their talent look bad in front of paying audiences on a weekly basis. MMA fans shit on Dana White all the time for him getting a bug up his ass and shitting on fighters he has a personal issue with.

[Loss]

Thanks. I'm not really a fan of MMA, so I was asking just out of genuine curiosity more than I was saying "I don't see a difference" as a statement. But that makes sense.

[sek69]

Alvarez of all people made an excellent point on the last Bryan and Vinny show reviewing 98 Raw that one of the biggest reasons Austin vs McMahon was so huge is because he was doing to his boss what people watching wish they could do to theirs. Fans could live vicariously through Stone Cold giving his boss the finger, and Vince was great at being the perfect foil always willing to show ass for him. Now we have three hours of Steph browbeating the talent and constantly reminding them they can be fired at a moment's notice which will leave them homeless and destitute. Everyone cowers in fear of the boss, and no one in the audience that they are trying to cater to wants to see 3+ hours of bosses browbeating the talent. There's nothing for the fans to get behind, who wants to cheer for these milquetoast-ass mofos who get their balls handed to them on a regular basis?

[stro]

Well, claiming 3 hours of Raw is Steph brow beating talent is an absurd exaggeration. Times are different. Austin vs McMahon tapped into something in the zeitgeist that isn't around anymore. The economy of 1998 and 2017 are so different (not even taking into consideration the wrestling industry specifically) that of course talent aren't going to get in their boss' ass. To me the issue is less that Steph never shows her ass or gets beaten up and more that the formula is so old and tired that even if she was getting embarrassed on the reg like Vince did, it'd still be so god damn old hat. The authority figure as a rule has been dated for well over a decade at this point, but this hasn't stopped WWE/TNA/LU/ROH from sticking with it anyway. I don't think WWE knows how to book SD/Raw without them anymore, and since the rest of the industry follows in WWE's wake (in America), even random local indies will have a GM figure to book the show in front of the audience. Shit is unseemly.

 

But Dana White pushing himself as just as big of a star as any of the fighters to the point where he's going to end up with $400M from the WME buyout is just as gross and as dumb as what Steph/HHH do. Actually worse, since there is never a chance that Dana is going to get a beat down. So when he genuinely shits on fighters because he isn't getting along with them at the moment, he's intentionally trying to damage their careers legitimately just because he's in the position to do so.

[Jmare007]

Well, claiming 3 hours of Raw is Steph brow beating talent is an absurd exaggeration. Times are different. Austin vs McMahon tapped into something in the zeitgeist that isn't around anymore. The economy of 1998 and 2017 are so different (not even taking into consideration the wrestling industry specifically) that of course talent aren't going to get in their boss' ass. To me the issue is less that Steph never shows her ass or gets beaten up and more that the formula is so old and tired that even if she was getting embarrassed on the reg like Vince did, it'd still be so god damn old hat. The authority figure as a rule has been dated for well over a decade at this point, but this hasn't stopped WWE/TNA/LU/ROH from sticking with it anyway. I don't think WWE knows how to book SD/Raw without them anymore, and since the rest of the industry follows in WWE's wake (in America), even random local indies will have a GM figure to book the show in front of the audience. Shit is unseemly.

 

 

 

This is very true. People tend to forget when WWE tried to redo the Austin/McMahon feud with Cena/Bischoff and it didn't work at all. Now, Bischoff didn't show ass like Vince did (he did end up getting thrown into a dumpster for his sendoff though) but it's true that the babyface vs the authority figure angle has been stale for over a decade and it seems they can't figure out a way of booking anything that's doesn't need that dynamic.

 

But the bigger issue is finding a new angle were fans can live vicariously through the characters and be emotionally attached. We haven't seen that in a loooong ass time in WWE. Specially in an angle that is actually planned (Bryan's quest came close to that kind of connection but that shit was mostly improvised going into Mania).

[El-P]

The authority figure as a rule has been dated for well over a decade at this point, but this hasn't stopped WWE/TNA/LU/ROH from sticking with it anyway. I don't think WWE knows how to book SD/Raw without them anymore, and since the rest of the industry follows in WWE's wake (in America), even random local indies will have a GM figure to book the show in front of the audience. Shit is unseemly.

 

This.

 

Although, as much as I was critical of LU at the very beginning for going that way, Dario Cueto is just so great that it doesn't matter (plus LU is some druged up shit with witches and murders, so it's not really a "pro-wrestling promotion" per say).

 

But yeah. Austin vs Vince was a classic angle for a few months. By the Fall of 1998, it had jumped the shark for me. That heel authority figure has been going on for almost 20 years now, it's insane. It's just "how it's supposed to work" at this point. It's part of the pro-wrestling system in the US it seems.

[Grimmas]

Alvarez of all people made an excellent point on the last Bryan and Vinny show reviewing 98 Raw that one of the biggest reasons Austin vs McMahon was so huge is because he was doing to his boss what people watching wish they could do to theirs. Fans could live vicariously through Stone Cold giving his boss the finger, and Vince was great at being the perfect foil always willing to show ass for him. Now we have three hours of Steph browbeating the talent and constantly reminding them they can be fired at a moment's notice which will leave them homeless and destitute. Everyone cowers in fear of the boss, and no one in the audience that they are trying to cater to wants to see 3+ hours of bosses browbeating the talent. There's nothing for the fans to get behind, who wants to cheer for these milquetoast-ass mofos who get their balls handed to them on a regular basis?

So there is a show on the Observer site that reviews 98 Raws, but nothing that reviews lucha or EVOLVE or other indies?

[anarchistxx]

There is an extra layer to the Austin comparison, in that he looked and talked like a normal person, which made him far more relatable. He wore caps and jeans and street clothes and talked shit. Compare that now to the top stars who are exclusively seen in WWE merchandise to the point where they look like walking adverts...who unconvincingly trot out robotic, scipted, cliche ridden promos - it isn't surprising they fail to get over.

 

One of their biggest recent stars was CM Punk, and he was one of the last top level guys who had his own style and identity in terms of look and felt natural in his promos and delivery. He seemed like a bloke who you could meet down a street somewhere. He was relatable.

[stro]

I don't think you saw guys looking like Austin out on the street. Dude was huge. I don't think he was nor was the point of his character being relatable.

 

Austin was a character you could live vicariously through because he was doing things you wanted to do but never could. You couldn't be as jacked as him, you couldn't flip everyone off, you couldn't beat everyone's ass, and you couldn't fuck with your boss constantly. With Punk, he did look like an average schlub on the street in a hoodie, and if he could do it, then maybe you could, too, but that was never really part of his character. The majority of his career was as a character that was explicitly not relatable and thought he was better than you. Punk and Austin both were constantly decked in WWE merchandise.

[sek69]

 

Alvarez of all people made an excellent point on the last Bryan and Vinny show reviewing 98 Raw that one of the biggest reasons Austin vs McMahon was so huge is because he was doing to his boss what people watching wish they could do to theirs. Fans could live vicariously through Stone Cold giving his boss the finger, and Vince was great at being the perfect foil always willing to show ass for him. Now we have three hours of Steph browbeating the talent and constantly reminding them they can be fired at a moment's notice which will leave them homeless and destitute. Everyone cowers in fear of the boss, and no one in the audience that they are trying to cater to wants to see 3+ hours of bosses browbeating the talent. There's nothing for the fans to get behind, who wants to cheer for these milquetoast-ass mofos who get their balls handed to them on a regular basis?

So there is a show on the Observer site that reviews 98 Raws, but nothing that reviews lucha or EVOLVE or other indies?

 

 

 

On Tuesdays they review retro Raw and Nitro. They did review Lucha Underground when it was airing, and Dr. Lucha has a semi-regular slot on the Friday WOL shows.

 

Dave does tend to go over the big indy shows when they happen.

[Cox]

At this point, Dave only cares about PWG on the indie scene. He will write those shows up because he'll see them in person, but other than that, he doesn't really care. He might give a line or two to an EVOLVE result if they do a title change, but it's usually not much more than that.

[Tim Cooke]

 

 

Alvarez of all people made an excellent point on the last Bryan and Vinny show reviewing 98 Raw that one of the biggest reasons Austin vs McMahon was so huge is because he was doing to his boss what people watching wish they could do to theirs. Fans could live vicariously through Stone Cold giving his boss the finger, and Vince was great at being the perfect foil always willing to show ass for him. Now we have three hours of Steph browbeating the talent and constantly reminding them they can be fired at a moment's notice which will leave them homeless and destitute. Everyone cowers in fear of the boss, and no one in the audience that they are trying to cater to wants to see 3+ hours of bosses browbeating the talent. There's nothing for the fans to get behind, who wants to cheer for these milquetoast-ass mofos who get their balls handed to them on a regular basis?

So there is a show on the Observer site that reviews 98 Raws, but nothing that reviews lucha or EVOLVE or other indies?

Is EVOLVE not being covered really that egregious? Meltzer historically has always had long periods where he misses covering something (lucha 98-03; Shooto in 99-05)

 

EVOLVE is super niche especially since they don't draw. I get PWG being covered since he sees them live and they actually get people to their shows

[sek69]

Also Dave has been really into watching the Friday night CMLL shows ever since someone made him aware of the stream.

[anarchistxx]

I don't think you saw guys looking like Austin out on the street. Dude was huge. I don't think he was nor was the point of his character being relatable.

 

Austin was a character you could live vicariously through because he was doing things you wanted to do but never could. You couldn't be as jacked as him, you couldn't flip everyone off, you couldn't beat everyone's ass, and you couldn't fuck with your boss constantly. With Punk, he did look like an average schlub on the street in a hoodie, and if he could do it, then maybe you could, too, but that was never really part of his character. The majority of his career was as a character that was explicitly not relatable and thought he was better than you. Punk and Austin both were constantly decked in WWE merchandise.

 

Depends where you live I suppose - there are plenty of muscular, aggressive, working class bald men with a short fuse and an ability to humurously talk shit where I'm at.

 

Men who dress and talk like Bray Wyatt, Braun Strowman and The Miz? Not really.

[stro]

You see a lot of guys looking like this walking around:

 

 

Because I go to the gym 4-5 days a week and have never seen someone built like Austin from 1991-2003. Austin in 1998 especially was fucking huge. He certainly was nothing close to normal or relatable physically.

[BrianB]

You see a lot of guys looking like this walking around:

 

 

Because I go to the gym 4-5 days a week and have never seen someone built like Austin from 1991-2003. Austin in 1998 especially was fucking huge. He certainly was nothing close to normal or relatable physically.

 

No, I'd agree on that front, and especially you wouldn't see that in the 90s unless it's a really small subsection of the population even compared to now. However, Austin was clearly coded and came off as working class. Facial hair was less ubitious then vs. now. It was clearly anti-white collar. And a bald head was the same kind of way, especially for somebody who was white. (Obviously, Hall and Nash and to some extent DX tried to exploit how just african-american culture was not seen as "white collar" back then.) But regardless, Austin's look and deamnor came off as edgier and anti anything resembling yuppie. The employee vs. boss is obviously the core of Austin's casual appeal, but you've also got other dressing like the Texas accent, his demeanor of not taking shit (he's definitely a character that they'd have to adjust for this current era of my turn your turn monologue promos). All of that was molded onto that foundation of the WWF 80s superhero top guy. And let's be honest, lots of those cartoonish WWF guys or WWWF guys would cheat and get dirty a good bit...or theyd have some psychology different from other areas (e.g. beat up your opponent so bad you just walk out of the cage.) Austin just ramped it up and added that layer of don't trust anybody on a foundation of years and years of an audience seeing close allies or tag partners turn on their buddies. Essentially, Austin was a different guy to put the old superhero package on top of and, unlike say Nash, he managed to keep his persona within that mold and shift within it.