JerryvonKramer

Some leisure-time reading for you Mark: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/20939-vince-mcmahon-reallly-a-genius/

Probables: Pat Patterson Ray Stevens Billy Graham Peter Maivia (in his late 40s) Don Leo Jonathan (in his 50s) The Sensational Destroyer (in his 50s) Haystacks Callhoun (in his late 40s) Probably could get John Tolos to do something (in his 50s) Possibles: Bill Eadie Don Muraco Jack and Jerry Brisco (see: actual history) Jimmy Garvin Spiros Arion (in his late 40s) Stan Hansen (why not?) Tully Blanchard Tito Santana Wahoo McDaniel

How about this also: Andy Kaufman as a top heel in HFW (Hollywood Fantasy Wrestling). Could build an angle over him trying to beat up Elizabeth or something like that. Here's another guy ... Roddy Piper. He worked for the LeBells in the 70s, and might have been attracted to an LA base to pursue his acting career. With a more conservative WWF, where would Piper have realistically gone after his GCW and Crockett runs? The roster is coming along nicely.

Totally off topic, but Sidebottom, I Loooooooovvvvvvvvve that avatar!

Aren't those two things inextricably connected though? Let's say the DiBiase match has a moment when he looks up and jaws at the crowd and that gets a massive heel reaction, that's something that happened bell-to-bell that was more or less created by the promo / angle/ skit / whatever. The booing isn't a result of how well Ted is jawing in that moment, but the end result of work he's done elsewhere. I don't see how you can cut those parts off. The Bruno vs. Larry feud we loved so match, without the promos and the character work and the electric crowds, isn't that remarkable "bell-to-bell". If you watched those matches with the sound down, they probably aren't much at all. But to me that's sucking the life out of what wrestling is and how it works. I'm very unwilling to accept arguments that might end up with a guy like Dean Malenko (sorry Dean, I know it's lazy that he's my go-to example) being thought of as a "better worker" than Bruno. That's patently false. Who was better at his job? It was undeniably Bruno. I guess I don't understand WHY you'd want to limit things to "bell-to-bell" rather than consider the "over all", because in reality "over all" is all there is -- that's the thing selling tickets, that's the thing producing crowd reactions and emotional connections, that's the thing that has made all of us posting on this board keep watching wrestling for 20+ years, don't care what anyone says, it's THAT. Great matches are the cherry on the cake, but judge the thing by the cake itself not the cherry! Ha ha ha, that last sentence is amazing!

But he did put a New York-based show on air. Granted, he was pissed off by it, but he still gave Vince the slot ... In the LA scenario this could have been a chance to expand by stealth, so rather than run the show from LA and show it on TBS, instead, play ball and run the TV taping in Techwood like Turner wanted. Maybe a syndicated show form LA and a cable show from Atlanta. I'll admit that would be a logistical nightmare and transport costs alone might have sunk the promotion, but it might have been a way to get to a lot of eyeballs quickly.

To go back to the Vince in LA scenario, what would have been stopping him getting a show onto TBS? At one point in 1985, Turner had the WWF "Black Saturday" slot, the Ole-run Georgia show and Watts's show on TBS all running -- I think 2 on Saturday and one on Sunday. Vince had the plum 6pm slot, Ole had the early morning slot and I think Watts ran on Sunday. Watts drew the highest rating (interestingly). Anyway, imagine a scenario in 83/4 with Vince PITCHING Turner his vision for this new promotion. Imagine a Vince-Turner teamup, with Turner backing Vince. It's not entirely outside the realm of possibility, but it would depend on that first year in LA not being a total shit show. Then again, Hollywood is RIGHT THERE, so maybe Vince might have ramped up celebrity appearances, plus some name recognition for Blassie / Patterson and it's not impossible for him to be drawing decent crowds. What's more difficult for me to envision, is how he's going to get a roster together and fill out that card. SD Jones worked the West Coast earlier in his career, so he might have come, but big names who realistically would have left AWA / GCW / Crockett / Florida are thin on the ground. It's possible he might have brought in The Funks for a run. Some of the more carny travelling heels like Abdullah, Mongolian Stomper, Killer Khan etc. etc. could have been brought in for runs. But ithese are guys who'd come in for short runs, not who might form the backbone of the roster. ... Hmmm .. how about JESSE VENTURA?

Dylan, the thing I've been thinking about is how each of the aspects of what a wrestler does are inextricably linked so that separating out "work" is a very artificial categorisation that doesn't ring true to what creates successful wrestling. I said this in a PM convo with someone here: What do you think about that?

Dylan, wasn't the Mid-Atlantic - GCW - Florida merger essentially what led to NWA / WCW "going national"?

Kelly - granted, Hogan got a longer run than 90% of heels at that time, but I still think Vince Sr. failed to capitalize on that potential or push Hogan on to the extent he MIGHT have. i know they didn't run many angles, but how about giving Backlund a proper storyline with Hogan to build on? Rather than the "3 and done". While we're on the topic, I also think Vince Sr failed to capitalise on the star he'd created in Larry Zbysko. The big storyline with Bruno, as good as it was,established Larry as a maineventer and then ... he had nothing left for him to do and he left. So now Georgia gets a top heel to utilise and probably with Vince Sr's full blessing. I guess I don't understand why the criticisms levelled at Verne are not also levelled at Vince Sr -- the only difference is that Vince Sr never had Jr to contend with. If he'd had any competition, it would have been like a knife through hot butter.

Who could he have realistically got to join him? Hogan? Blassie? Patterson? Buddy Rose? Maybe Ken Patera?

Interesting post Brain. You think Vince might have been able to buy GCW then? Why do you think it would have crushed him? So Vince's options would have been: a West coast territory, trying to take over GCW and ... possibly swooping into Detroit? There may have been one other option: St. Louis in 83 after Muchnik left. I don't know how much Vince could have grown St. Louis as it was a one-town promotion, but they had a long history of being on TV and a loyal fanbase to build from ... more importantly, anyone who was anyone still wanted to go there. This is pie in the sky but ... 1. Acquire St. Louis 2. EXPAND the St. Louis show onto other networks nationwide 3. Start running other towns 4. Somehow gain control of NWA title Aims 3 and 4 might be antithetical since he might have been blackballed from the NWA, but Vince was smart and could have picked his shots more ... expand TV into Detroit and into California, then start running towns there where there is no local promoter. A base of St. Louis, Detroit and LA wouldn't be a bad starting point to launch the fullout assault later on. Although it would have taken a lot longer than it did starting from NYC. Thoughts? EDIT: Oh, he might have also been able to cut a deal with Boesch to start running a few shows in Houston too.

Brain, Pat Patterson turned of course. But you are right in general that in the Vince Sr mould, there are very limited options for heels. It's have your run and leave or turn. Guess I'm saying Vince Sr, with more imagination, might have made something of Hogan then and there, but he didn't.

Here's a fun something to think about, a hypothetical scenario "if ya wheeel": Imagine Vince Sr wouldn't sell the WWF to Vince Jr, and Vince Jr ends up purchasing ANOTHER promotion in the US. Would would have happened? Would Vince Jr have still taken over the wrestling world? Which promotions could Vince Jr have had a shot at taking over the wrestling world with?

Just hate the level of self-awareness of it all though. That's why I loved the Undertaker moment at this past WM, it caught that crowd on the hop and they weren't thinking "we're part of the show", they were genuinely stunned like proper marks. I guess I'm just lamenting the death of Kayfabe ultimately. I think wrestling needs -- and I'm serious -- MORE KIDS in attendance willing and able to be proper marks. It has a cumulative effect because the parents will want to join in too. And maybe the crowds could do with more old women. Ultimately, my dream scenario would be for Cena to get a Hogan in 87 reaction with no weirdness at all. I didn't like the "Whole world in his hands" thing during the Wyatt match at WM.

Yeah this is a really good point on the early Hogan. Like I said, I think the Rocky 3 gig really put the wind in his sails and it allowed him to be much cockier. We've gone from him in 79 letting Blassie do the talking and just posing to him being a proper dick heel with charisma here in 1981, albeit through channeling Graham. Also like I said on the show though, I think Vince Sr was often too conservative in his booking and too wedded to his formula. For some reason the guy seems impervious to criticism because he made money. Granted, the formula was successful and it did make him money, but I think he could have been even more successful and made even more money if he'd done a few things a bit differently. Hogan is a case in point. Let's try to forget about what he would become for a second and just look at where he was in 81. He was clearly a star in the making and stands out from a lot of the other guys on the roster. But Vince Sr didn't have a lot for him to do. Shot with Backlund, feud with Andre. What now for a heel in the WWF? Errrr .... Another match with Andre? I'd go as far as to saw that Vince Sr. squandered Hogan. What happened then? Vince Sr. didn't want him doing the Rocky III scene and fired him. EVERYONE talking about Verne Gagne losing Hogan to Vince Jr. NOONE talks about Vince Sr losing Hogan to Verne. In many ways, Vince Sr. comes across as being even more rigid and set in ways than Gagne.

Anyone else irrationally hate those chants as much as I do? I think it's because it's the crowd drawing attention to their own status as smarks. "This is awesome" = "We're the sort of fans who like this sort of thing and we're enjoying playing our roles as members of the crowd" I don't like crowds to be self-aware.

I feel like the way I look at wrestling has changed quite a bit over the past 6 or 9 months, difficult sort of thing to explain. I feel much less concerned in general with defining or even looking for "greatness". It might be watching all of those MSG and Spectrum cards, or it might be a greater amount of watching old footage purely for enjoyment, or it might be just generally being into the history of things a lot more -- most likely a combination of all of those things -- but I find myself caring less and less about trying to rank and codify things. To put it in more tangible terms, I'd be much more excited in general about stumbling across a random Mongolian Stomper promo from 1981 than in tracking down that ***** classic that I just "have to watch". Doesn't mean that I'm any less analytical when watching matches, of course, it's more of a mindset thing. I'd call the chapter of the book "Learning to love Dominic". ---- Nonetheless, if we are going to try to define "greatness", there's one key thing I don't think anyone has mentioned yet so far that really can't be overlooked: Connection with the crowd I think Bruno Sammartino is one of the true greats. I really do. I don't think Bob Backlund is. And it comes down to that. Backlund likely has more "great matches", but Bruno has something else: in his character, in his connection with the audience ... and, fuck I'll say it, in his connection with me, as a viewer now in 2014. I don't like Dusty Rhodes much as a worker, never have, but I think of him as a "great" for this same reason. I have always been someone who rails against taking "work" as the only criterion for deciding on these things and we've argued about it many times. For me, "work" is just one thing among lots of things that go into making a great wrestler (and I think it's a MISTAKE to separate them out, they bleed into each other inextricably). My list of "greats" would probably look very different from most people's here. I'd probably rank Ole Anderson above Owen Hart, for example. Shit, I'd probably rank him above Bret Hart.

When does the awesomeness with Savage start to happen? I still think late 95 to pre-NWO 96 is Flair's last great run. It's been a while, but my memory of THAT Flair coming into being is from around this time.

I don't necessarily disagree with anything he said, but it's just boring and tiresome to listen to. He doesn't have the charisma of a Watts or Cornette to keep the rants interesting, so it's just very dry and dull. He's preaching to the choir with a lot of this stuff, just stating obviously correct things in an unengaging way.

The interview was so-so in general, heard most of that stuff before. But the one highlight was Ross running down all the different promoter's he'd worked for. That was really interesting and I kind wish he'd structured the whole interview around it. Ross spends far far too much time focusing on what "the youth of today" should be doing, basically every minute he spends on that is a minute wasted. The reason Austin is so good as an interviewer is because he gets guys to open up and tell stories they'd never have told in a regular shoot. For the most part, Ross failed to do that here because he seemed more interested in driving home some agenda about why it's important for heels to get heat. Yet, he's sitting there with one of the GOAT heels and somehow didn't manage to get any insight at all from him on what it is to be a great heel.

Christ, 15 minutes in and he's still reviewing the current product and talking about how heels need to be prepared to get this heat. Fast forwarding this crap, it's just boring. Almost 20 minutes now, where's Ted? He's actually talking about TNA now, arghh!!

Yeah they had the philosopher's football game and also the song "Immanuel Kant was a real pissant who was very rarely stable, / Heidegger, Heidegger was a boozy beggar who could think you under the table", etc. Now let's stop this, it's silly!

There is a lot of Keirn singles matches on the Georgia footage I have. He's having matches with people like Les Thornton, Masa Saito, Kevin Sullivan, and Bobby Eaton. He was fueding for the GCW TV title circa 1981, but also had some junior matches with Thornton, who is something of a forgotten worker. Interestingly, in that timeframe the main eventers didn't tend to work long matches on TV mainly working angles to hype the Omni, so likes of Keirn and Sullivan would be the ones having longer matches. Keirn often tagged with Steve O during this time.

"Introducing first, with his manager, Socrates ... This. Is. Plato!"