DMJ

Listening to Cena on Chris Hardwick's ID10T Podcast and right around minute 28, he talks about how he is criticized for calling spots. He says he doesn't care that the fans "snarkily" watching at home or the fans in the first 6 rows can see him telling his opponent what to do or what he's going to do. He says he is trying to please the fans in Section 313. I respect his honesty and that he calls it in the ring, but other wrestlers have called it in the ring without telegraphing as much as he has been doing, especially over the past 6 months. I mean, talk into your bicep, get the guy in a corner or a headlock and say something in his ear, do what you can if you can. At times, like the Rumble, Cena is literally dictating the match as its happening. So far, 30 minutes in, this is a fascinating listen, though. Recommended for sure.

Completely agree about Balor/Rollins. The best part of that match was The Miz on commentary and even he struggled to add any color to these bland, vanilla performers. His best lines were mostly about his newborn. I'm hoping The Miz retains the title on Sunday. I also think Balor/Rollins benefitted from a "Stockholm Syndrome" audience response where you have a captive live crowd that wants to see a "great match" and wants to get a "This is Awesome" chant going and then gets two guys with big reps that know how to pace a 20-minute match for the crowd in attendance. It might have been awesome in-person, but on TV, I found it tedious.

Yeah, sorry, shodate, as much as I dislike Sinclair, I think you've got this backwards. A few weeks ago, I (and seemingly tens of thousands of other people) sent a letter threatening a boycott of Snickers until they pressured the WWE to rename their women's battle royal. The idea was that if you boycotted the sponsor, the wrestling company would change their stance. Here, it seems like the opposite. If we boycott Ring of Honor, we're boycotting the wrestling company in the hopes that the sponsor will change. I just don't think the leverage is there. If half the RoH audience stops watching over Sinclair's political stances (which I abhor), sadly, RoH is the thing that'll go away, not Sinclair's agenda.

Had some questions that I wanted to post here rather than on Reddit - I just got through watching the 02'-03' WWE PPVs and am now watching the 04' Royal Rumble and I wast just curious if someone who was following at the time, active online, and maybe kept up with the WON could explain some things in regards to the timeline of events. - In January 04', was it well known that Goldberg would not be re-signing? Is this why they take the title off of him in December 03' and, at least based on what is presented at the Rumble, don't really tie him in at all with Triple H (who he'd been feuding with) and give him the "Its Obvious He's Not Winning" position at #30? - Going into the show, Benoit's gimmick is that he can't "win the big one" and is feuding with Paul Heyman. Seems like they were telegraphing his victory the whole show and for weeks prior. At the time, was it a given that he was winning or were there people that thought it could go to someone else? Who else was in the running? Cena? - Immediately after the Rumble, like, the night of, was the expectation that Benoit would challenge Lesnar or was the 3-way expected? - Speaking of Lesnar, when did his impending departure start getting publicized? Before No Way Out in February or after? - Finally, earlier in the show, Eddie Guerrero defeats Chavo clean and the crowd cheers and actually chants "Eddie!" at one point, but then, in the post-match, it is very clear that Eddie turns heel. He bloodies Chavo and beats up his brother and there's none of that "I Lie, I Cheat, I Steal" mischief to it - we may not be supposed to have sympathy for Chavo, but we're definitely not supposed to view Eddie's actions are virtuous either. When Eddie leaves, he doesn't get booed, but there are no more chants for him and the crowd is just kind of quiet. So...was this basically just dropped/never spoken of again? By No Way Out, I feel like Eddie was fully the impish, mischievous babyface. Is that accurate?

I know I'm kinda beating the same drum that's been beaten many times before but, man, John Cena. In his segment, we saw him go from over-the-top John to sentimental John to pitch man John back to fired up "southern preacher" John to serious "semi-heel" John. The crowd booed him at the start and chanted his name at the end. I don't think anyone else could've carried this build entirely on their own but this promo cemented that not only did Cena carry it, he sold it to a "WrestleMania" level (as corny as that might sound). I'm not sure where I stand on whether or not the match should happen. The 10 year old in me wants to see it this Sunday, but the 35 year old thinks maybe prolonging it a year, while risky, would make the build that much more epic and, honestly, I'm not sure the match we'd get in 2018 would be all that much different than one we'd see in 2019.

I forgot what year it was - but I want to say it was post 2005 (could be wrong and it was as early as 03') but Hulk Hogan was in Cleveland for an episode of RAW and it felt like the standing ovation he got went for 5 straight minutes. I'm not sure if they cut to a commercial on TV or whatever, but it was really something. Other Cleveland memories (mostly RAW) that felt like a big moment where the crowd pop or angry reaction was huge: 1. Tyson joining DX later 2. Austin winning back the World Title from Kane the night after KOTR 98'

Wow - super psyched as well. This forum will definitely come in handy too as I know there are quite a few matches in the archive that I never got to see in my rewatch of the WCW PPVs and Clashes (for a random example, I really dug the Zybysko/Regal series and I think maybe there's one from a Saturday Night that I would probably be more likely to watch on the Network than trying to find it elsewhere).

I second the motion for Hogan to be brought back - but in the same position/role that a Flair, Bret, Shawn, etc. are in. You can call it being an ambassador, you can call it being a "recurring guest star," but if IIRC, his last few appearances with the company were really shaky with noticeable gaffes in his live segments so the idea of him being on SD every week sounds like a terrible idea. A special guest on house shows? Sure. Charity work? Fine. Just no need to see him more than 2-3 times a year. What was more interesting to me in this OP link was the mention that Hogan was set to wrestle Cena at WrestleMania 25. I think I'd heard this rumor before but always took it as Hogan BS - I mean, even 9 years ago, Hogan was basically retired or wrestling very safe matches against his buddies (Big Show and Flair). Then again, he did get in the ring in 2010-2012, so its not completely impossible. Plus, even then, I thought the real booking plan was Hogan/Jericho at WM25 as Jericho was feuding with Mickey Rourke and the legends at the time. The idea there would've been that Hogan would've been there to shut Jericho up after all the trash talking and whatnot he'd pulled against the 80s guys (Snuka, Steamboat, etc.)

Wow, I'm shocked this match gets so much love. I just don't see it. To me, there's just way more wrong about this match than right. Every move Sid delivers, especially at the start, is basically just Benoit walking right into it. Check out that press slam early on - Benoit looks like he's hoisting himself up (it isn't even prefaced with something as simple as a boot by Sid or a chop or anything, its just Benoit practically saying "Pick me up" and positioning himself for the move). Benoit cutting Sid down is great strategy and I like how Benoit is even willing to essentially "break the rules" by using the steps to his advantage - but such a dramatic, heelish move as his first strike? Its too heelish for me, especially as Benoit doesn't really do anything that dastardly for the rest of the much. Back in the ring they go and Benoit applies a bunch of submissions and hits his trademark german suplexes and, sadly, he (and WCW) miss a huge opportunity as Benoit continuing to cut corners or if he had gotten into it with Arn Anderson a little bit (instead, Arn's invisible during the actual match) would've given the fans what they were clamoring for. The internet may have wanted to see Benoit get his big win here, but the Cincinnati crowd is clearly in Sid's corner. Sid's chokeslam looks great and Benoit doesn't half-ass at it any point - but that doesn't make up for the finish, which comes out of the nowhere in the worst way. Benoit applies the Crossface (which, as others have pointed out, doesn't really sync up with all the legwork he was doing) and Sid immediately taps, which makes him look like a total wuss, especially as Tony and Bobby had been hyping that, as his match with Goldberg proved a few months earlier, Sid "will never quit." Whoops. I don't see how this can be considered a "must see" match (which is what 4-stars means to me). I'm not even sure how this could be considered anything other than average at best.

I know this is a separate topic somewhat, but what is everyone's thoughts of CM Punk attending/not attending? Personally, I'm kind of looking at this as Punk's chance to "do right" by his fans and the pro-wrestling community in general. His defenders will tirelessly state "He owes you nothing," but I think its time for him to come out and just tip his hat and, simply by just being there and receiving an ovation (and requisite "One More Match!" chant), make a statement that he should make in 2018: "I appreciate the fans, I appreciate the "boys," and this industry, warts and all, let me be me, warts and all. Thanks." If Punk can't be bothered to attend a show in his hometown (if he still lives there?) that is designed to prove the strength of independent wrestling, than I'm not sure what could ever goad him out of his self-imposed pro-wrestling exile.

According to the report (which I didn't read/hear, but read a summary of, so, reader beware), Del Rio was at Titan Towers to film some talking head clips for an upcoming Mysterio project. He then, supposedly, met with Vince and he was always a "Vince Guy" so if McMahon wants to bring him back, it can and will certainly be read as another example of Vince exerting some power as Triple H and Stephanie consolidate theirs (its been reported that it was H and Steph who were handling the Rousey negotiations, for example, and, obviously, NXT is Triple H's baby). I'm definitely on the side that believes Alberto Del Rio is one of the biggest busts of recent times. Over-pushed, under-talented. When he first came in, I have friends who tried to convince me of his greatness based on his reputation, but his "match-ography" in WWE lacks the certifiable great matches or angles. Say what you will about "fanboys" overrating CM Punk or the reliance on stipulations that made Edge palatable or all the criticisms that could be leveled against Undertaker and Orton at their dullest, at least they had moments where they transcended their shortcomings and were really captivating characters. At what point was Del Rio as over as his pushed deserved? I'm genuinely curious if an argument can be made. At least Rollins had The Shield and that kickass lumberjack match against Ambrose.

I've seen a few theories posited... 1. He challenges Nakamura, which I think would be kinda lame storyline-wise because why should Cena get to challenge Nak for his Mania spot (or even to make it a 3-way)? As he said, he lost at the Rumble and he lost at EC. He didn't even get screwed either. If this match occurs, I expect Nakamura will win - which would help heat him up, but still leave Cena without an opponent. 2. Undertaker answers his challenge tonight or Cena does something semi-heelish to goad Taker further. I'd go with Taker just answering his challenge outright, saying "nobody tells me when its my time to rest in peace." (Note - This would make Cena's promo on Raw last night kind of nonsensical, but whatever, it gets us to the endgame faster) 3. This is somehow leading to an Orton/Cena match, which seems like a real wildcard. If I put my fantasy booking hat on, I'd go with a modified option 2. I'd have Cena try to goad Taker again, re-emphasizing that the match is "not going to happen" because "everyone backstage says the Deadman is...dead." Then, have Taker accept the challenge at FastLane. Meanwhile, add Nakamura/Jinder to the card and let Nakamura get the W the fans wanted him to get all summer.

Sometimes I feel like I'm watching a totally different show than some of you - or my hearing is just way off when it comes to reading crowd reactions. Anyway, full review up on my blog but some thoughts.. - I don't think the main event was as great as the best multi-mans we saw last year (SummerSlam, for example), but I also don't think they shit the bed. The crowd was dead for the first part, but I thought they had them buzzing once Cena came in. I understand the criticism of the overly-choreographed sequences, but when they're generally well done (as I found them to be), they're the best things these matches can deliver now that, in terms of big risky violent high spots, the EC is in the same position as the Hell in a Cell as no longer delivering on blood and carnage. - Cena disappeared at Survivor Series but I've found him to be subtly great recently, including at the Rumble and here. I once wrote a lengthy column, I think it was maybe 2006, pleading for Triple H to show some vulnerability as that sort of character development would've made him so much more tolerable (to me, at least). Now Cena is doing something similar - the one-time Fraternity King/Life of the Party who is now wondering if maybe he's hung around too long and is no longer "top bro." Its great. - Thought that the Rousey segment started shaky, but ended really strong (like most people). My hope, though, is that as we get to closer to Mania, the crowds don't try to reverse the roles and cheer Triple H (as they were doing at the start of the segment). I'm not one to usually tell fans how they should "play along" in the audience, but I don't get why fans would be angry about Rousey coming in. She's not the one booking the SD brand's women into oblivion. She hasn't ended Asuka's streak (yet). She's not even "taking a spot" anymore than the Helmsleys and McMahons have done for the past 10 years, basically just fighting each other or another part-time/HoFer every year in some sort of novelty match (see Vince/Bret, HHH/Lesnar, HHH/Sting, Shane/Taker, etc.). People would be happier with Maria Menounos? - Thought commentary was woeful the whole night. It seems like Cole and Graves are as curious as the rest of us as to why Jonathan Coachman has been brought back - they clearly don't want him there (and I can't blame them). - The Bar vs. Titus Worldwide is the type of match that makes you say, "The talent level in the WWE is so high, its almost impossible for any match to be considered anything worse than average in 2018." It wasn't a great match or anything, but compared to the kind of shit we got in 95'? Or during the Attitude Era? It was fine. Then you get Wyatt/Hardy and it reminds you that it is possible to see a WWE match that is worse than average in 2018. The commentary during this match was especially hilarious (as they scrambled to hide what was clear crowd disinterest).

To me, the Ziggler thing can be explained as the WWE having enough money to basically do whatever they want in terms of their roster. Here's another example - on a recent podcast I listened to (or maybe the story was in his book?), Jim Ross told a story about Roddy Piper asking about the white Bronco they used for WrestleMania 12 and, according to JR, Vince let him have the thing. Just handed him the keys to a brand new truck (I don't know anything about cars really, but what would it be worth? 35-45k?). Or here's another one - I believe the WWE bought the Big Show his own charter bus, which probably cost them 750k to a $1 million. He still probably has a big contract too, so my understand is that the cost of the bus wasn't really factored into his contract (meaning its not like he makes $25k less every year until he pays back the cost of the bus). The cost of Big Show's bus in 2012 or whatever was worth it because it got rid of a headache and, in all likelihood, helped motivate a talent they wanted to keep around - even if only for his "halcyon days" (in 2012, which was the earliest mention of the bus I could find, Show started off the year putting over Daniel Bryan and Cody Rhodes in successive order). With Ziggler, I don't really see a fear of him going elsewhere and becoming a star or anything like that, I see them looking at the guy and saying, "How much will it cost for us to keep this established, 'solid hand' on our roster? 250k a year? Pay it and let's move on." Ziggler, for all his huffing and puffing on Twitter, seems equally happy to be the highest paid job guy in the business.

I don't think it will lead to anything - I think its just Mickie James being smart enough to know that there are only positives to tweeting about Rousey - and not necessarily laying out the carpet for her. (A) It subtly hypes Elimination Chamber, (b ) its fully in line with Mickie James' tweenerish "grizzled veteran unimpressed with the new generation" gimmick, and ©, even while I think it won't lead to anything, maybe just maybe the company will rethink their plans just a smidge. I mean, the tweet definitely made me think that it wouldn't be a bad idea if Rousey, after whatever McMahon Family nonsense happens at Mania, were to have her first program with James, who may not be the most exciting character you have on your roster, but is reliable, established, and won't suffer longterm from putting Rousey over first (because I don't think "longterm" is very long for James in 2018). Come to think of it, wasn't that essentially what Mickie James was hired for? To help the top prospects polish their work on the main roster? To be a "player coach"? To protect the talents the WWE is investing in? I can't think of someone the WWE should be protecting, polishing, and investing in more than Rousey. And, if you're Mickie James, being Rousey's first real 1-on-1 opponent may mean playing the metaphorical "tomato can," but if the interest is as high as the WWE is hoping for, you're probably going to get a hefty sum of cash in what would likely be a 2nd from-the-top match on a Network special.

There was a time I actually thought Lords of Pain had a decent forum (before I was saved by this one), and while I still check it out every now and again, it has completely eroded to a handful of posters trolling each other. I thought they had some decent column writers for awhile too (early-to-mid-00s) on the main page and specific blog/columns forum too, but now you'll basically just find fanfic and TLDR arguments about why Reigns/Cena going heel would save the WWE. Their most famous columnist on the main page, Mr. Tito, was a daily read for my friends and I in 99', but 20 years later, he's almost become Alex Jones-ish with his over-the-top, outlandish, self-congratulatory opinions (that are often broad enough to never be totally wrong, but also almost always alarmist and clickbaity).

I'd be shocked if they book Rousey like a heel before Mania - especially if the rumored match (HHH/Steph vs. ____ & Rousey) is going to happen. I mean, who could they team with Rousey that's going to get booed over HHH/Steph? The Miz maybe? Jason Jordan? I think it'd be far easier to play it as HHH and Steph antagonizing Rousey by talking about how its "their house" and Kurt Angle backing up Rousey because he's RAW's GM and when he came into the business, people like Steph and HHH tried to "keep him down" too because he was an outsider. Even if its 50/50 in terms of crowd responses, at the actual show, the story will be Rousey is triumphant and the crowd loved every minute of it (just like the story of the Cena & Nikki vs. Miz & Maryse match was that Cena and Nikki got engaged as the crowd applauded despite the fact that the loudest pops of that whole match were for the Miz kicking Cena in the chest repeatedly). The night after Mania, though, is when the audience reactions can really help guide a storyline when handled correctly (see the Ziggler/ADR cash-in for a decent example). Rousey can come out and, by this point, without HHH and Steph to draw the heat, the audience will likely by against her or, at best, neutral. Then, Asuka comes out to a huge applause. Or Charlotte. When you have Rousey actually juxtaposed with a popular, established female performer, that's when the audience will really turn on her. I just don't see that happening if she's paired up with Steph, even if they attempt to make Steph out as some sort of godmother of the women's division (in which case I think the whole angle will just get shit on).

You put Rey at 30 and let him win the thing and I think it would've been interesting. On one hand, it would've been a "big name part-timer" going over and there'd be a portion of the audience that would shit on it, but is there a bigger dream match than Styles/Rey that the WWE could reasonably put on that doesn't involve Daniel Bryan coming out of retirement? Obviously, Nakamura/AJ has some strong pull with the audience, but Mysterio is a still a step above in 2018.

I really miss Live Audio Wrestling as, especially after a big PPV, I like to hear some analysis the next morning on my drive to work. I tried Wrestling Inc.'s podcast and thought, "Wow, these guys really don't get it" and "Matt Morgan throwing shade at Cena and Reigns? Dude, really?" I've opted to never listen to that show again. I guess I'm a glutton for punishment, though, because I tried Vince Russo's podcast "The Brand" this morning. I knew Russo would have complaints about the Rumble, but he was so ridiculously wrong on every point, part of me wonders if it isn't a work. Among the "hot takes" that nearly made me veer off the hallway (from Russo or his equally historically wrong co-host Big Vito)... - The WWE is letting the "marks" book the company now because Nakamura won and Reigns didn't. - "Choreographed fake fights" (like Nak/Styles) won't bring in any new viewers but Cena vs. Reigns would (because they wouldn't wrestle a choreographed fake fight?) - Big Vito's fool-proof, guaranteed money-making angle that would turn the WWE upside down (brace yourself): Bring back Eric Bischoff and put him in charge of SmackDown so he can bring back Hogan and the nWo. Then, have Vince Russo take over RAW and bring back Edge, Christian, and Jericho, then run a "real" war because "That is an angle that has never been done before." - Bobby Roode needed a veteran to help lead him through his first US Title defense despite the fact that Roode has been wrestling for 15+ years. (Note - I didn't see the Roode/Rawley match and I'm not defending it, but Vito's "expert analysis" for why Roode isn't over and why Roode/Rawley was a bad match shows he doesn't actually know who Roode is. Its like saying "I hated Ishtar. The two lead actors were really amateurish.") I fear my drive home as I finish the episode and will undoubtedly hear them somehow manage to shit on the women's Rumble because (I'm guessing) Sable didn't return and win the whole thing wearing a thong and pasties.

ABC News and Sports Illustrated are reporting that it will be the return of the XFL (maybe not that name, but a pro-football league). Is it possible that Vince has gotten himself involved in some sort of Brewster's Millions situation where he has to burn through hundreds of millions of dollars in a set amount of time in order to inherit hundreds of billions of dollars? I mean, what else could be behind this? I'm also still really gobsmacked over what Network is interested in partaking in this endeavor. Dick Ebersol is still at NBC and I'd really be shocked if he shared Vince's interest for a relaunch - especially considering that, unlike in the early 00s, NBC isn't as desperate for sports programming. I could see Disney being somewhat interested - especially if there is an eventual push to buy a major stake in the WWE. This would also fit in with the rumors about Vince wanting to potentially move RAW and SD over from the NBC-owned USA Network to somewhere under the ABC/Fox Umbrella (maybe landing them on FX? Live streaming on Hulu? ESPN2?). Even under those circumstances, though, its hard to envision McMahon successfully using the WWE as a carrot to lead Disney into supporting the XFL. As someone noted, there may always be a place for live sports on TV, but the XFL's production costs were massive compared to arena football and I'd probably say the XFL was costlier than the WNBA from a production standpoint. Niche sports like dodgeball, table tennis, and bowling aren't being played in 30,000 seat arenas and being produced as large-scale, rock concert-esque events every week. McMahon went big (and expensive) last time and there's no reason to think he won't do that again.

Only caught a few clips and likely won't watch much more (though I am intrigued to hear the Manhattan crowd's "refund" chant). - I thought the Vince/Shane/Austin segment was really flat. I'm a big Austin fan and usually find his segments at Manias or special RAWs to be great for the nostalgia factor alone, but this time around, it just felt like the writers went out of their way to make it uninteresting. I think maybe that was the point?No promo so he couldn't pop the crowd more than anyone else? No interaction with current performers so he couldn't outshine them? - The Taker segment sucked. Smoke and mirrors have always been his friends, so when they send him out there with no frills and lighting that allows us to see every wrinkle of his face and no angle or storyline reason for even being on TV, the "aura" dissipates very quickly. Like the Austin segment, Creative just didn't have anything for him but decided that they'd rather him be on the show doing nothing than not on the show at all. Surprise, surprise, most everything written about the segment has been negative or indifferent. - Reddit is full of fun live reports, videos, and notes regarding the $400 ticket price and many attendees wanting refunds. From what I've seen, they absolutely deserve them.

If you look at his actual win/loss record in 2015 when he was part of the main roster, the WWE has been really smart with Braun. He spent about a year in tags and six-mans and would routinely be on the losing end of those matches - so its not quite like the Goldberg push where Braun just demolished everyone on the roster within a year. That year of house show matches where he probably wasn't booked as the center of the attention and was told to sit back and pick his spots and watch (while the relative vets in the Shield and later Big Show and Kane led the match) is probably why (a) he's been really good in his spotlight moments over the past year and (b ) why he still seems super fresh at the start of 2018 despite debuting in August 2015 (i.e he was kinda kept hidden and not over-exposed during that initial Wyatt run). As for not showing him off in NXT, I'm going to call that a master stroke too. This guy didn't need any time to curry favor with the "nerds" to get over. If anything, it could've been harmful. In one scenario, the "workrate marks" boo him to death for being green and he's instantly seen as a guy who won't ever "get it" and thus put into comedy roles like a modern day Hillbilly Jim. In another scenario, he does get over as a monster in NXT but because of backstage bullshit or a need for him to "learn his place," he's brought up and given the same start-stop push that Samoa Joe and Finn Balor have got while jaded internet fans complain about how he's been "watered down." In other words, I think the Strowman we are seeing now is the best Braun Strowman we could reasonably have ever seen formed.

I know this is a separate conversation, but I'd throw Big E's name right in there with Rusev's as a guy that if you put him in there in the final 4 alongside Reigns, Corbin, and, say, Sheamus and Jinder, I think that crowd would rally behind Big E. I thought the New Day's popularity was dwindling when they jumped to SmackDown way back, but the Usos feud was great and kept them over and Big E, while maybe not the most versatile guy in the group, has the size to go face-to-face with anybody on the roster - Lesnar included. Now, I'm not saying Big E/AJ Styles is where they should go for WrestleMania just like I don't think anyone really sees Rusev as a legit contender, but the larger point is - moving into 2019, maybe instead of trying to fabricate stars like they did with Jinder this year, they should actually give a shot to some of these guys who are actually over. Big E/Styles and Rusev/Styles remind me of those times Flair would face someone like Bobby Eaton or Ricky Morton where the challenger was obviously on a lesser tier but the matches worked because both guys were over, were very good at what they did, and the pairing was fresh.

So, the thing that we've been talking about in the spoiler tags (which, I don't think it should be called a "spoiler", but whatever) is now popping up on Facebook feeds, IGN, Daily Star, and probably loads of other sites. At what point can we just start talking about it as a hypothetical? I mean, isn't there a thread going on about the Undertaker returning for a match against Cena at Mania? Is that not the same thing? If Nakamura wins the Rumble, would that make everyone's predictions that he would win into spoilers in retrospect? I get not wanting to ruin a surprise, but this isn't like ruining a big reveal from Game of Thrones before the west coast feed, this is pure speculation no different than me wildly and with no evidence speculating that Jacqueline will be competing in the women's Rumble.

I just watched that Rumble match and disliked it a good deal. It gets better after the "restart" and the closing stretch is fine, but the first half was dullsville. Quick refresher: After a dull opening, the Roadie takes out Razor's knee on the outside, forcing the ref to stop the match, I think, then Jarrett baits him back into the ring and proceeds to defeat him. I haven't watched Mania XI in forever, but looking at the card, maybe they could've stretched the 1-2-3 Kid/Holly tag run and have them face the Gunns at Mania, freeing up Owen Hart? I don't know how Hall and Owen's chemistry was but I'd also add that, rewatching that Rumble match with Jarrett, I'm questioning whether I ever really liked babyface Razor or if I just thought I liked it because I was 11.