DMJ

I actually thought the main event better than UK Title match - and probably would've said it even without the post-match (which I thought was great). To me, that moment when Gargano took the bullet for Ciampa sealed it. Dunne/Bate may have had more fireworks, but to a casual fan like myself, I'm not really emotionally invested in them as characters yet (though, I did think Dunne was instantly unlikeable in a way so few are). Even if this was your first Gargano/Ciampa match, that singular moment was so heart-wrenching, you could fully understand the story of this team and of Gargano particularly. Then that post-match happens and, damn, you can just hear the money-printing machine boot on. I would like to see Dunne/Bate again. I fucking *need* to see Gargano/Ciampa.

Seinfeld and wrestling converged against last night! http://www.prowrestlingsheet.com/veda-scott-kings-of-leon-slut-shaming/#.WRJNs2UWzdk TLDR? The bassist of Kings of Leon mocked wrestling on Twitter. A Canadian indie wrestler used the "jerk store" comeback from the Seinfeld episode "The Comeback" on Twitter and things just escalated and escalated from there, with the Kings of Leon bassist's weak, arguably embarrassing retorts and his eventual attempts at clarity failing miserably. A day later, more and more wrestlers have done the one thing you should count on a wrestler to do - stomping a mudhole in this jabroni. And as long as we're talking about the unmatched peaks of 90s sitcoms, I'll leave this here too in case anyone else wants to join along in bashing this poor dude's unfortunate decision to criticize pro-wrestling...

Just saw this. As others have said, this is classic WCW shit booking, but I felt an urge to really detail it for future generations. At the previous month's Bash at the Beach, The Giant beat Kevin Greene (who was promoted as Goldberg's buddy). The crowd at that show chanted "Goldberg" during the match. WCW knew they had something in Goldberg/Giant and September's Fall Brawl was practically begging for it as you already had nWo Hollywood/nWo Wolfpack building with Nash leading his squad against Hall's team (with or without the Hulkster). Hall and Nash leave early in the battle royal - which is smart because the battle royal really only needed to do two things: build towards Hall/Nash and build towards Goldberg/Giant. ...And then the rest of the battle royal happens and it is boring and Giant eliminates only one guy while Goldberg takes everyone out (they should've each eliminated 3-4 guys). Goldberg spears Giant and things haven't turned to shit just yet. It's the Jackhammer that seals it, though. Why not have Goldberg fail to lift Giant? Then, Giant can toss the winded Goldberg and you have your Fall Brawl title match. Goldberg can still have his undefeated streak because who counts battle royal losses? The Giant, who was over, could gloat that Goldberg was just another "little guy" that couldn't overcome his size and strength. Goldberg could say that he was going to Jackhammer him. The cherry on the shit sundae is that the battle royal ends in a pinfall (!). Even if Goldberg had just somehow tossed The Giant, the Giant could've at least still claimed he'd never been pinned by Goldberg. Instead, the battle royal, with its thoroughly decisive ending, serves as the blow-off to a feud that, up to this point, WCW had booked perfectly. Side question - was Bret Hart getting paid by appearance or something? He didn't need to be in the battle royal, but him interfering to knock out someone like Sting would've given the Stinger some direction (and maybe Hart too - he was US Champ, but what was he doing? Lower midcard angles with Booker and Benoit?).

I think where the House of Horrors fell apart was that it wasn't the Boiler Room Brawl or Total Deletion. Whether or not you bought the pathos of the BRB, it was presented as a legit match - no spooky soundtrack, the match wrestled in a regular, musty, dark boiler room (not a "haunted" boiler room), no ridiculous post-production editing tricks, Taker nor Mankind making weird dramatic faces to the camera "that wasn't really there" - it was essentially a "reverse" falls count anywhere match building up to a meaningful, memorable finish with at least one hellacious-but-not-cartoonish spot (Foley's back bump to the floor) to make it clear, this was a brutal brawl. Total Deletion was kind of the opposite. It was absurd and ridiculous and took place in a thoroughly distorted reality...but the fact that it looked like it was edited in a junior high's AV room made it light, funny, and charming in its own weird way. It was Tim & Eric. There isn't a single frame that even bothers to exist within the already-limited realism of a typical pro-wrestling show. The House of Horrors match sucked for multiple reasons, but to me, part of it is that it was neither. The over-production (the music, the house set, the "acting") was heavy-handed and uninteresting without ever really hitting that "so bad it's good" level. To make matters worse, the actual brawling, in-ring portion, and finish were so flat (all of that work for a Jinder run-in?) that it made the whole thing feel like a throwaway anyway - an excuse to give Wyatt a "win," but nothing more than that. It was a match seemingly designed to please the small number of people who've always wanted to see what you'd get if you took a late 90s Marilyn Manson video and tacked on your average TV main event screwy finish.

This is one of those cases where winning and losing don't matter because the takeaways from Mania and Payback are... - Bray Wyatts "mystical powers" are goofier than they are dangerous - Randy Orton is the superior wrestler and was never in peril and had outsmarted Wyatt at every turn (even in his signature match) - It took the interference of the Singh Brothers and Jinder Mahal to beat Orton, because Wyatt alone is powerless and seemingly he is flockless now because nobody bothered to interfere on his behalf - which makes him even more impotent Where is Bray going on RAW? He feuded with Ambrose and Reigns a year or so ago, right? If they turn him face, they better have a great storyline in mind to get there because even with a cool entrance, why would anyone cheer this loser? The best case scenario after the disaster of this feud might be to send him on a 9 week vacation and see if there's a sudden need for the character closer to the build for SummerSlam.

Fun match, thank god Cesaro and Sheamus did the post-match beatdown as they had me fooled that they were heading to the back and I was gonna shit all over the booking of them just accepting the loss. I think the Hardys being back in the WWE is really fascinating in that they have so many potential directions to go with them but none are necessarily guaranteed. Tonight was an example of "At the very least..." as in "At the very least, they can be the centerpiece of a lukewarm tag scene and make people care about teams that they would otherwise not care about."

I actually thought that wasn't too bad. Much better than Mania thanks to an audible crowd that was way more invested than I thought a 2017 crowd could be for a Jericho match. I didn't think it was wrestled in slow motion at all, either - in fact, I thought the sequences were pretty tight with signature spot into counter into signature spot and repeat. Ending was a bit of a shocker too.

It almost seems like a marketing "Trading Places" bet. Brock Lesnar's drawing power (he's advertised for the show apparently and I'm guessing will face Reigns or Braun or both) vs. the absolute shittiest name ever. Like putting on Austin vs. Hogan in 2001 but naming the show "WWE Presents...DiarrheaFest 69."

This might end up warranting a thread of its own (just so everyone can get their digs in) but it was announced that everyone's favorite pipebomber CM Punk would be appearing as a "Pro" on a new MTV spin-off of The Challenge, a reality show where (I believe) former Real World cast members square off against each other to determine the best athlete and, I'm guessing, who can escape the shoot with the least venereal diseases/documented instances of alcohol poisoning? While Punk is competing on the show for charity (a good thing), it is impossible to ignore that this is the same guy who, in his DVD, openly criticized the WWE for pushing The Miz in 2010-2011 as he felt the WrestleMania 27 main event should've been "the best bad guy vs. the best good guy" (himself vs. Cena), more than suggesting his superiority to Miz - and its undeniable that most Miz hate stems from him being a former Real World cast member. Miz actually won a season or two of the original Challenge series, though (I think), so its kind of put up-or-shut up time for Phil Brooks. In summation, CM Punk is "Benjamin Buttoning" The Miz's life and will be enrolling at Parma High School around 2020.

Hidden gem of a match. I had to look up where this show took place because, based on the crowd reactions for Rey, it sounded like San Diego. The fans are invested in this match from the get-go and the participants deliver a match full of complicated sequences and big spots and though basic in its layout, a bout that definitely builds up the suspense and tension the right way. The original poster mentioned that Haas and Benjamin don't do a lot of character work but I thought their heelishness came across in the cut-offs and 2-on-1s the way it does for The Revival today. In fact, I found Haas specifically great. If you were to watch him in this match alone, you'd be convinced he was headed to a decent midcard singles run down the line. His clubbering on Kidman early looks vicious, as does a pretty nifty kickout inverted spinebuster thingamajig he does to Rey. Facial expressions are nasty too. His haircut screams 2003 but everything about the production of this show and many of its characters scream 2003 so its not that bad in comparison (for example, the match before this is an APA Invitation Brawl featuring Sean O'Haire and before that there's a match where the prize is nonconsensual sex). The star of the match, though, is Rey. Everything he does is so crisp and well-timed and crowd-pleasing even when its not necessarily the craziest move you've ever seen (the West Coast Pop, for example). The crowd was hot and the match was layed out well, but unless you can keep them in the palm of your hand the way Rey does, you're not going to get reactions like the ones that this match earns by its conclusion. Extra half-point at least for the commentary as well - all four men are put over strong, their personal histories (including a Filthy Animals mention) are all brought up to help give context and credibility, and Cole and Tazz are clearly having fun trying to keep up with the action without tripping over themselves. Easy 4 stars to me as I tend to reserve that score for matches worth seeking out. This match is worth seeking out.

I think he ad-libbed calling Kofi stupid for a mistimed RKO that one time.

I'm not a Sheamus superfan, but I don't think he necessarily belongs in the discussion because I don't think he can really be called a "top star" like Orton. If you do include Sheamus, then throw Del Rio's name out there too - a World Champion, a Royal Rumble winner, a PPV main eventer, but obviously a huge disappointment in terms of impact.

I can see what Dave is saying (and I'm someone who thinks that Dave not being more pro-Miz is ridiculous at this point). There's an upper level that Miz is just not a part of. That upper level is incredibly thin - Brock, Cena, Reigns now, Orton, Triple H when he's around...and that might be it. AJ is on the cusp, but he's challenging for the US Title right now (which is kind of a step down). Jericho certainly isn't at that level in 2017 and maybe had two runs at that level at any time in his career. I think they wanted Rollins there, but it didn't materialize. Ditto for Ambrose. Braun Strowman looks like he could get there - but we'll see (he might end up at that slightly below upper tier where Big Show and Kane have spent most of their careers after an initial big push). When all is said and done, The Miz's career will resemble that of a Jericho more than it will The Rock. Jericho has never been a "dominant" guy - even at his peaks, he was a cheater, an opportunist, and the guy at the right place at the right time. Dave doesn't give enough credit to Miz for his in-ring improvements or his consistent greatness on the mic for quite awhile now, but he's not wrong here.

To the point on how hard it is to "freshen" Orton after so many years, I'd just note that when the feud with Lesnar began, Orton got a HUGE pop for RKOing Lesnar. The moment he went into the crowd was awesome too. Even fans like myself who generally are bored or uninterested in Orton were interested in him. Then the match happened and it underwhelmed...which is kind of what tends to happen with Randy's big matches. Also, I'd second the point about others taking lemons and turning them into lemonade. Extreme Rules 2014 comes to mind and has been sort of alluded to by others in this thread. I thought the Kane/Bryan match was really fun - that making it a wild, cartoonish "kitchen sink" PG hardcore match worked (flaming tables, kendo sticks, a forklift - it was zany entertainment and the crowd was hot for most of it). Earlier in the show, John Cena lost a steel cage match to Bray Wyatt because a little girl singing "He's Got The Whole World In His Hands" distracted him...and I liked that mostly ridiculous match too. Speaking of Cena, around a year later, he made a squash match where he took 20some suplexes in a row into a seminal event, easily one of the top 5 "must see" matches of the 2010s. I'm guessing some people here forgot Orton even wrestled Lesnar before reading this post. It would've taken a great performer to make "The ring has cockroaches on it!" work...but how many big, tough heels in the 80s got mileage out of being afraid of an animal 15 feet away? How terrified did the heels of the 90s always seem of Taker's generally harmless "sorcery"? Orton didn't need to devalue himself to the level of Hogan in the Dungeon of Doom ("This water...it's not hot!"), but no-selling it entirely? Came off as "I'm too cool."

I'd have It end in some sort of DQ with Braun coming out looking like the subjective winner. Reigns beat him clean before Mania, so Reigns can take a "loss" here. Somehow build up to what I'm guessing will be the big MITB match (?) to declare a new number one contender. I'm all for them finagling things towards Reigns/Joe and Braun/Rollins, for two examples of options. Reigns and Joe would probably have good matches and I can't imagine someone I'd like to see get dominated and destroyed by Braun more than Rollins.

Found a link that has Orton at the number 5 spot for most WWE PPV main events as of 2016 and he'll be number 4 before all is said and done, easily. Looking at everyone else on that list, aside from Kane, Orton is probably the guy I enjoy least (though, Triple H might come close). In what way do you mean lackluster, though? In terms of great matches? Reliability for good work on TV/PPV? As a character? Luger and Orton are an interesting comparison because they were both relatively protected throughout their careers to an extent that a guy like Jericho, even at main event level, never was. I also think it will be interesting to see how fans 5-10 years from now look back at Orton's "peak." I, personally, started watching wrestling around 91'-92' when I was 7-8 years old, so, by then, Luger was an established star, but was also not really that great in-ring. In 98', I'm 14, seeing cruisers and ECW for the first time, watching Austin and The Rock and Jericho and the Outsiders, all these fresh characters, and Lex Luger was a kind of a one-trick muscle guy to me. Sure, him beating Hogan was cool - but to me and my friends, he was old hat. Its only been recently where I've gone back to watch Luger's work in the late 80s and been astounded at how entertaining he is. I wonder if the same will be true for fans of today. Watching Orton now, he's pretty boring and his endless feuds with Cena and Triple H kind of blurred together to me, but, in 2025, will Orton's peak years (2004-2007?) be remembered as highly as Luger's 87'-90'? Is one of the issues that Orton has wrestled like a bajillion matches on TV versus Luger's TV output?

I wouldn't be surprised if they give him a couple month suspension. Hopefully that will let him know he needs to ease off the hazing and, though I think he deserves more of a punishment, I can see it also being looked at internally as an opportunity to test some of the newer commentators on a main brand, silver lining on a grey cloud that happened at the right time - post Mania is always a time when the WWE seems to be willing to try new characters and performers, so, a 6-week vacation for JBL that the WWE paints as a suspension wouldn't shock me at all (it also helps that if they do it soon, they can claim they handled it "swiftly" before any major outlets were to break the story - even if we all know this has been documented for over a decade now).

Haven't read the original source material, but someone on Reddit posted notes from Justin Roberts' book regarding JBL. Basically, "mauro" the same - JBL is a bully whose "razzing" borders on sociopathy. Also, just thinking of the guys who have had the most to say about JBL vs. those that are his friends - JBL does seem to have a pattern of picking on "weaker" newcomers like Roberts, Styles, and Miz - while I'm guessing JBL didn't try that shit with Eddie or Brock or even any of the second-geners because, like most bullies, its much, much easier to just pick on those that can't defend themselves or have any allies. Can we start a "JBL is a Vile Piece of Human Garbage" thread or can that honor only be bestowed on JR? I feel like we could fill a few pages worth of examples of him being a scumbag.

One almost silly question (but actually, not that silly) is what's in the future for the Hardy Boys. Broken Matt story redux? Just a couple month reunion tour and retirement? Jeff Hardy is nearing 40, but when he left the company, he was main eventing as a singles star. Hardy may not be everyone's cup of tea and I don't think he's going to be pushed to the moon once the reunion dies down, but 10 years ago, during his first comeback, it was obvious that longtime fans and new fans were behind him. He's got a "name" and credibility, he's got a bit of a "timeless" gimmick and popularity, and he's got a fresh batch of guys to work with - I don't see a title run in his cards, but I wouldn't be surprised to see him challenge for the title in some multi-mans (Elimination Chambers, Money In The Banks, etc.) over the next year or so. Maybe I'm crazy, but even in 2017-2018, Hardy/AJ, Hardy/Reigns, Hardy/Strowman, and odd pairings like Hardy/Zayn or Hardy/Owens are things I want to see as long as Jeff is still capable of at least somewhat good performances.

Just finished watching - yeah, I stretched my viewing over 2 days and avoided spoilers/reviews. I'm a fairly big Reigns fan, or at least one that generally agrees he's one of the company's most consistently good-to-great performers and that he's had some really excellent bouts with Styles, Sheamus, and others over the past few years that he deserves loads of credit for (I'd take his matches against Wyatt, for example, over any that Ambrose had with Wyatt). I don't mind Reigns positioning as a top talent. ...but that match was, after a very strong opening, just not good and its not just Taker's age that made it that way. This needed to be a homerun performance out of Reigns and it wasn't. The botched tombstone reversal was UGLY but that finish was almost equally botched. What exactly was that? Reigns came off the ropes, Taker was out of position (?), they collided, Reigns (wisely improvised and) struck him with a right hand, and then Reigns bounced off the ropes again (twice) before hitting him with a final spear. It was disjointed and just not as fluid as the final spot of The Undertaker's career should be. Again, I think it was Taker not being ready, but the result is the same - a match that started off good, then got derailed, and then never recovered (arguably because, by not doing that Piledriver spot, we essentially saw the Deadman get beaten by nothing but Superman punches and Spears, nothing poetic, nothing symbolic, nothing that nobody hasn't kicked out of before.* At the end of the day, that was probably the worst match Reigns has had on PPV in years. It also happened to be one of the very few that needed to be great to silence his critics. Fair or not, Reigns kind of needed to do a "carry" job here (like, say, Cena did against Khali that time or HBK did against an equally passed-his-sell-by-date Flair) and it didn't happen. Not a woefully bad match (not even close to the worst of the night), but undeniably flawed. If that match is better on rewatch, I'll never know because I don't want to find out. * Yeah, I know, there were chairshots too. Good ones even. But chair shots are basically throwaway moments in these sorts of matches.

* Wish they would've played up DDP saving lives more than just his in-ring career. I really liked his speech and enjoyed Bischoff's intro, but, to me, the HoF is the one time I don't mind the WWE really trying to pull at heart strings and having Jake or Scott say some words would've been cool. Maybe have Bischoff and Hall, for example. * Beth's speech was probably my favorite, though. I liked her thanking her husband, but loved her name-checking Chyna. Her mention of Chyna felt like the most "controversial" thing to happen all night but hopefully it will also open the door for her to eventually get inducted. I'd love to hear an argument as to why her induction would be too big a blemish when everyone whose spoken of her agrees that she had a good heart, but a damaged, troubled life that led her down destructive paths. Her in-ring accomplishments are more than good enough to warrant a spot. * No disrespect to Dana Warrior or the football player because their speeches were nice and all but...that award should be mailed to the winner each year and turned into just a video package. * I mentioned above that Beth's mention of Chyna was the most controversial thing said all night. When it came to avoiding controversy, Angle should be given another gold medal. Not only did he list every major opponent of his career that wasn't Chris Benoit, he also made sure not to mention any from that "Florida territory" - even the ones that are in the WWE today (Sting, AJ, Joe). I get not thanking Dixie Carter or Jeff Jarrett, but like others said, Angle seemed more interested in just late 90s/early 00s nostalgia fun than actually looking back at the entirety of his career (did he even say a word about Brock or Triple H and Stephanie?). Just kinda weird. Overall, fun background event while I worked on lesson plans for school.

There was a time - not sure what year, maybe 2008? 09? - when it seemed like they were going to do a similar angle with Ziggler (heel) and Maria. I don't know anything about Maria's work after leaving WWE, but her look and "gimmick" at that time definitely lent itself to being the innocent naive girl who shacks up with the overly confident jock. Missed opportunity there as I saw chemistry between them. Enzo is a good example of a modern babyface manager. Undersized and an easy target, but willing to go toe-to-toe with anyone and entertaining on the mic. But to answer the original question, I think you don't book a babyface manager. You book a heel manager and you wait for their catchphrases or schtick to become beloved. Certainly worked for Cornette during his face run in NWA in the late 80s. For another example, I think, in today's world, a manager like Slick would've probably gotten over as a face eventually - cool suits, cool entrance music, could dance, natural charisma. I'm not sure Jimmy Hart or Fuji would've (Hart and Fuji were never "cool"), but Heenan? He would've been no less popular than Heyman is now - a guy who, at the very least, is typically cheered by 33% of the audience no matter how much he tears them down.

Definitely in the camp that won't be watching live, though, I'll end up watching it all in pieces, bit by bit, over the course of a few days. I'm not down on the whole card - Goldberg/Lesnar has me curious, Reigns/Taker should have a big match "feel," and I'm actually hoping we do get a marriage proposal out of Cena (the 7-year old in me still loves the Savage/Liz "Match Made in Heaven" build from WM7 to SummerSlam 91'). What has me less excited is just about everything else and, maybe most of all, just how laborious getting through a WrestleMania has become. I'm not even going to bother with the Pre-Show - not because I'm not interested in those matches (I'm typically a fan of SmackDown's women's division, I like Neville, and the Andre Battle Royale is usually fun) but because if I tacked that on my viewing schedule, I'd finish watching WrestleMania around the second night of Passover. I already hate the completist/OCD part of me that is going to have to grin and bear Rollins/HHH and Jericho/Owens.

At a house show in Montreal, Sami Zayn gave an emotional post-match speech that (based on what I read) congratulated Owens and talked up their history and even made Owens get a little misty. I didn't watch the video (too busy enjoying the new GBV record), but just reading about it left a bad taste in my mouth. Its not a huge deal in the grand scheme of things or anything, but it's these little things that keep pushing me towards believing The Miz and Charlotte are the only two heels in the company who "get it" because instead of getting emotional, Owens should've kicked Sami's teeth down his throat.

Ahh, I didn't research it too much - I just assumed it would be on the Network because why the hell would it not be on the Network? Thanks.