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What are some of his more egregious lies?

Isn't that the one that he says in his book he called, telling Flair that he was the champ and that he was the one who was going to say how the match went?

I think that matches that are too short are more likely to impress me than are ones that are too long. In one I'm wanting more and in the other I'm ready for it to end. Over the course of a career I'd prefer a wrestler feel like they laid it all out there. Quite a few guys have slipped in my estimation because they didn't aim for greatness enough. You can look at it as consistency or knowing your limitations, but it could just as easily be seen as playing it safe or not knowing how to take things to the next level. There are countless good wrestling matches. Great matches are rarer, so I respect the guys who try for those even if they have some big misses to go along with the hits.

Konnan is in. He has a lot more going for him as a candidate than Vampiro, though. Vampiro has a reputation as a big draw, but he doesn't have that many big crowds you can point to for his main events. Right after AAA formed, Arena Mexico attendance was swiftly declining from where it had been before, and they were able to pop one last big crowd there with Vampiro vs Pirata Morgan. That's good. By the end of the year, he was being scapegoated for the dwindling attendance, which led to Vampiro vs Black Magic, the planned main event of the big December show, getting scrapped (although given Vampiro's history it's possible it was something else that pissed off the CMLL front office, either way it was decided that he wasn't a big enough draw to work through it). Afterwards he wasn't even put in a position to draw huge crowds. Maybe he was a boon to the smaller shows, but that's a lot harder to figure out and it's not the sort of eye-popping stuff like the 48,000 for Triplemania I that looks good for a hall of fame resume. Sort of like Sting during the same period, he was a top guy while his promotion was at its nadir. Part of the reason that the CMLL crowds were smaller in that era was, of course, that Konnan was bringing in so many for the opposition. Konnan being in doesn't necessarily mean Vampiro should be there too.

Atlantis has what is probably the best collection of masks of any wrestler. He doesn't have nearly as many as El Hijo del Santo, but in the comparatively few mask matches he had Atlantis took the masks of Kung Fu, Mano Negra, Villano III, and Ultimo Guerrero. I'm not sure if Hijo del Santo has one mask that was as historically important as any of those four (well, I guess Kato Kung Lee's), and Atlantis still has some nice second-level ones like Talisman's. Santo the original might be ahead but I don't know enough to tell just from looking at the list of his wins. The 1993 anniversary show headlined by Atlantis vs Mano Negra was one of the rare CMLL bright spots during a down period for the company, and it came at a time when their status as the number one promotion in Mexico City was actually being threatened. Vampiro was considered a bigger draw at the time, but it was Atlantis who saved the day. Apparently in the immediate aftermath the promotion went right back to drawing poorly with only rematches of the anniversary main event drawing anything for them. Having (arguably) great matches in 1984 and in 2015 is an impressive feat, even if he was carried for the Satanico match in '84. I don't think he had a whole lot of MOTYCs during his prime as a worker, but I really do like the Blue Panther match from 1991 and the Emilio Charles match from 1992. He seemed to drop off in a major way after 1992. It's either a backhanded compliment or a forehanded insult, but that played a major part in the decline in CMLL match quality from 1992 to 1993, IMO. So many 1993 matches when you see Atlantis' name and go in thinking they might be awesome, and then they aren't, in part because he isn't. Goes to show how important having him in there at the top of his game was in the years before that.

Lizmark in this was good in a Jordan scoring 27 on 10-22 shooting for the Wizards kind of way. Obviously a good showing, especially given where he was physically, but nothing special compared to what he could do in his best years. He still had the good moves and he still knew what to do, but he lacked the explosive athleticism from his prime that made him a top worker. The latest match I can remember in which he looked like he could still run with the guys at that level was the cibernetico from early 1996.

Ha, wow. I remember seeing a 1991 match between them on video once (Orihara won that one outright). One of the more random matches to have happened multiple times five years apart, let alone been filmed both times.

Hell hath no fury like a weeb who feels like he's being out-Japanned.

I was watching a match from early 1995 AAA recently and was thinking to myself, "Damn, Eddy looks better here than I ever remember him being when teaming with Love Machine." And it got me wondering if that was when he first became a great worker, and also if there was anyone out there you could pinpoint the moment or match when it happened for. So yeah. The moment when you thought X went from good to great (or, if you'd prefer, from bad to good, or whatever).

Not that it's going to mean much coming from someone with only a little over a hundred posts here, but good on you for being willing to reconsider.

In general, if you're going to make fun of someone's English, it kind of ruins the effect when the first sentence of your post reads like stereotypical caveman talk.

And then after being driven out of the U.S. because of the rape, he gets the ring name Love Machine.

I didn't feel like there was any part where Atlantis looked legitimately upset. I thought that for the first two falls they were going for the idea of Warrior frustrating Atlantis by constantly breaking up the action by grabbing the ropes or going to the outside, and then in the third there were some spots where they were sort of groping around trying to find where to go next. Warrior seemed to have an off night, but it's not like the guy was way beneath Atlantis' level. I agree that this was a match that was more interesting than good or bad. Atlantis doesn't lose many one on one matches from this era, and it was interesting seeing him as the veteran in the match, too. They were really putting Warrior over strong around this time.

This was a pleasant surprise, as I'd actually listed this match in a thread about videos you hope surface some day. It's nice when your hopes get answered but even better when what you hoped for more than lives up to your expectations for it. El Felino and Mascara Magica got over thirty minutes at Arena Coliseo to have a great match. That was it--no clipping, no rushing, and the promotion actually gave them a bit of controversy to help the match feel bigger. It was one of those title fights where they actually set out to hurt each other. The holds in the first fall were tough and hard fought, in addition to being technically very good, but it was afterwards that they turned things up. Fans of working a body part even got the kind of payoff they love when Mascara tried to catch Felino in the same hold he'd won the first fall with and couldn't lock it in because of the damage inflicted on his arm. Eventually Mascara wiped out Felino with a somersault tope and just barely made it in the ring before the ref got to twenty, but he got counted out on the most technical of technicalities: he didn't get his foot back in under the rope. It was a brilliant screwjob. Mascara threw a tantrum (and continued to complain even after the match had ended and it was well past the point of being inappropriate), and the commissioner decided to settle things with a fourth fall. This brought out the big Felino spots that I'd been dreading--they're a lot like what you hear about Kurt Angle's big spots--but after twenty plus minutes of intense technical wrestling, they were tolerable and maybe even kind of good as the finale to a contest like this one. The Youtube description calls this the best performance of Mascara Magica's career, and I have no dispute with that (although I do think he's pretty underrated), but this is the most I've ever liked Felino, too. Usually he annoys me, but he was great as the veteran of the match. He was better than usual working holds and he seemed so poised. Even the cheating, which often feels like cheap heat when in a title match or coming from Felino, felt like desperate moves that he had to sneak in. Top five match for 1996 CMLL, in my opinion.

All of those questions except the second one and the first part of the fourth one could just as easily be applied to individual matches, though.

2018 is gonna be the year I finally win the title.

I'm fairly confident that 1992 Arena Mexico was better than 1992 Toreo, and 1992 is the most complete year we have from the UWA. 1990 Arena Coliseo Acapulco would get you the following matches: Arqueros del Espacio vs Diabolicos (National Trios Championship) Ciclon Ramirez vs Fantasma de le Quebrada (National Welterweight) Lizmark vs Fabuloso Blondy (NWA Lightheavyweight, title change) Atlantis/Angel Azteca vs Pierroth Jr./Ulises (National Tag) Fuerza Guerrera vs Americo Rocca (NWA Welterweight) Lizmark vs El Faraon (NWA Lightheavyweight) El Dandy vs Atlantis (NWA Middleweight, title change and then a rematch for the belt one month later) Negro Casas vs Yoshihiro Asai Mogur vs Verdugo (hair vs hair) Lizmark vs Mascara Año 2000 (NWA Lightheavyweight) Fuerza Guerrera vs Octagon (NWA Welterweight) Atlantis vs El Satanico (NWA Middleweight, hourlong time limit draw) This is with sporadic and incomplete results listed, so there must be much more like this that took place in the arena that year.

According to luchadb they had three hair matches in the same month in 1984, including two on back to back days. It's all the same match, just with conflicting reports about what day it took place on.

These are all on Youtube. Satanico vs Samurai Shiro is clearly the one that's online, you wouldn't have a hair rematch in the same month when one guy already has a buzzcut. One of the dates listed for it is incorrect.

Nah, that one was on Youtube years ago, I think on Guardianpuroresu's now defunct channel.

Mascara Sagrada: Awkward as shit for his first year or so with the gimmick, but eventually he sorted out what he could do and what he couldn't and turned himself into an average wrestler. A lot of people rate him as awful but I'd probably rate him above Octagon. He worked harder than Octagon for sure. Jerry Estrada: Amusingly, Dave Meltzer at some point in the recent past called Estrada a candidate for the most underrated wrestler ever. IIRC he got slaughtered in the greatest wrestler ever poll and finished in like the 400s. His worst attribute as a worker was probably technical wrestling and he still managed a great title match with Lizmark. Americo Rocca: Had a pair of acclaimed matches with Mocho Cota in 1984. Cota is considered a lost great worker and even a genius, and no one cares about the man in the ring with him. Cota didn't carry him. Matches that technically intensive require strong performances from both participants. Tigro: I've been keeping this to wrestlers who are actually underrated rather than not really on anyone else's radar, because wrestlers in the latter group aren't really being rated, are they? I'll give a shoutout to Tigro, though, the best of the Thundercats IMO and a talented technician. Blue Panther: I'll be my own watchdog here. Most of my comments about Panther skew negative, and he deserves better than that. I do think that he gets undue credit especially compared to some of his peers. He also possessed some of the best grappling skills of any of them, and he looks a lot better when you compare him to average rather than to just the greats and the near greats. (I'm sure that these are not the five most underrated wrestlers ever, in part because the five most underrated wrestlers all working at the same time in the same place is highly unlikely. I didn't know the answer though so I just stuck with what I knew.)

La Fiera vs El Dandy from 1992. Fiera is one of the alltime great bad guys in this. No one else was doing backstage beatdowns or chain attacks in 1992. The blowoff isn't a classic and for overall match quality both guys probably had better feuds, but this one gets a sentimental boost for me in part because it was one last bit of peak CMLL awesomeness as things were crashing for the promotion. Plus I love Fiera.

I'd argue that you can't just jump into Blue Panther without some legwork to prepare you though. I'd argue the opposite. For the most part, you can watch Blue Panther's big matches and just from those get a sense of who he was, what he did well, and what the match was about. Maybe he changed as he got older but in his thirties Panther didn't surround his singles matches with the kind of buildup and followup that make for great feuds and add to the one on one match. I think it works for the Barr match and for some of the fun stuff that's popped up in Japan where Panther's working more broadly as a stereotypical rudo, but in general, you understand what makes Blue Panther so special, you need to understand lucha (trios organization and how he's so good at directing traffic, how title matches operate and why, the role he played when teaming with guys like Fuerza, what makes maestros matches special, etc.). Otherwise, he's just a guy who can get in and out of matwork quickly. I assume Bryan sees more in him than that but who knows? Technical matches are not something unique to Mexico. Kurt Angle vs Chris Benoit was wrestled with the same sort of principles as those of a Blue Panther title match, even though the styles were different. Anyone watching Blue Panther vs Atlantis is going to quickly understand what is going on, although some might wonder why Panther does not just kick Atlantis in the leg over and over. The Love Machine matches are the ones where I think you'd MOST want to watch the six mans that surround the famous matches, but then if someone asks for a best of Blue Panther recommendation I'm probably not going to suggest watching him against Love Machine.

I'd argue that you can't just jump into Blue Panther without some legwork to prepare you though. I'd argue the opposite. For the most part, you can watch Blue Panther's big matches and just from those get a sense of who he was, what he did well, and what the match was about. Maybe he changed as he got older but in his thirties Panther didn't surround his singles matches with the kind of buildup and followup that make for great feuds and add to the one on one match.

Emilio Charles' right hand. Negro Casas' right hand and dropkick. Is a kneedrop a strike? I thought Lizmark had a great kneedrop.