El-P

I know it was, but still, there is a moral judgement here because for you, it did harm the quality of the matches (that is up for debate or simply taste, but there you go). Therefore it was *bad*, but not *bad* from an execution standpoint (something you don't seem to care about as much as I do), bad because, as you or someone else put it, it was "vanity" work from Michaels.

Understood, and I agree above these above points. If he does power moves, he's *actually* presented as being able to do them. I mean, to me it's as simple as that. For instance, when Okada tried and tried and tried to get his damn Cobra Clutch over during last G1 and it was obvious it killed the pace of the matches and the crowd did not go along, to me that was a mistake. Matt has done those nothern lights forever, they're part of his repertoire, to me it does look pretty good and is a fun spot... I mean, at some point, the spots define the worker (or as you'd put it, the character/gimmick), not the other way around. If you *actually* can't do jackshit, your best shot is to be a no-selling monster. Which is why the whole "he plays his role well" argument never flew with me, to me it was a defense of mediocre or even crappy workers who did not do much at all because, well, they just weren't very good otherwise.

I don't agree and I explained why. Assigning a worker to a reducive view of what he's "supposed" to do based on a gimmick/character is a dated view to me (BTW, it's also true of gimmick matches). Plus it really never worked that way as soon as you get into "great workers" territory. Like for instance, the idea that the heels are not the ones who should do the most exciting moves and that those should be reserved for the babyfaces, which is something I heard a billion times. Reality is, if you take for instance the most classic tag team US feud ever, which is used basically as the greatest staple for how "tag team wrestling should be worked", the MX vs Rock'n'Roll Express, well, the fact is the MX had by far the flashiest, most impressive and awe-inducing offense of the two teams, mostly thanks to Bobby Eaton, who was outworking every babyface he ever met, including Ricky Morton, in term of doing cool moves and spots. Again, broader statement about pro-wrestling in general.

I took your comment and from there made broader statements about pro-wrestling in general. It had nothing to do with you personally. The "moral" values comment stems from @Matt D talking earlier in the thread about Shawn Micheals using his pro-wrestling understandings for "evil" reasons, which is, infact, a moral judgment.

I love when Meltz and Alvarez just debate in the most matter-of-fact-ish, deadpan way ever of the most absurd things, like when they were talking about that 1000 years old woman in NXT, with Meltz going on about it's surprising because they usually go toward the youth factor for women, Alvarez not believing anyone could actually live that long and Meltz replying that "Mathusalem was about 900 years old but I always thought it was a work", without even blinking or sounding remotely amused about what they are discussing. Deadpan Meltzer can be really funny as hell.

They actually did, in BTE. Several times. No, because some of the best long-term psychology and storytelling in pro-wrestling matches has probably happened during the last 5 years. Wait, no, the irony is that I don't give a flying fuck about punk rock nor what was the best year for punk rock 43 years ago or whatever. I was just referencing a period where old fuckers complained about the younger generation because "they don't know how to..." and "they don't respect the guys who paved the way before then" and whatever. Really, if you really wanted to make a serious point about it and drop the "irony" on my ass, you could have referenced the fact that punk, like it's been said in Retromania, the excellent book by Simon Reynolds, in itself had a very reactionary aspect to it, in that in many ways it was a move "back to the essence of the old rock'n'roll from the 50's". So anyway. It's still quite interesting that never before I've experienced such a huge pull-back from an entire generation toward the following generation. Maybe because I had to reach a certain age to actually witness an entire generation go by, so that the difference would be significant enough. Like I said, can't wait for the millenials to get old and shit on those zoomers who can't work and do whatever they will instead of playing video games like real pro-wrestlers used to do in the good ol' days of Kenny Omega & the Young Bucks, before WWE was sold to Disney and Triple H became president of the USA.

WrestleMania XX (2004) – Undertaker vs Kane Because of all Taker’s opponents we needed to see twice, they choose Kane... This is a complete revival match and angle as they return the Dead Man gimmick, complete with Paul Bearer looking really unhealthy and the entrance from Mania 14 with the druids carrying torches. This is basically the final look for Taker, the long leathery coat & hat with MMA gloves, although he’s still dressed at Diesel once the match starts. Kane wears no mask (insert random joke about Covid there) so he’s ugly as fuck and his « shocked » acting consist of shaking his head a lot (like he's confronted with the result of last's year election or something). Complete nothing match, Taker does a few of his typical run-of-the-mil stuff while Kane totally screws up a back bodydrop, does a shitty big boot and his hilarious « clothesline from the top rope » where he has landed on both his feet before his hand barely makes contact with Taker. Also, once the excitement of seeing Taker back in his old self is done, the crowd couldn’t give less of a flying fuck about this match, especially when Kane is on offense. The only thing that awakes them is Taker going for the rope-walk which is gonna get countered this time into a chokeslam attempt before a battle of the choke, which is always super thrilling to witness, really... Oh yeah, and for the first time in years, we get the zombie sit-up, which gets probably the biggest pop of the actual match. Also, Kane apparently can't kick out of the Tombstone anymore now, he's a total JTTS here... No idea why this was even taking place, it’s 2004 and this was a bad match (and just as heatless) 6 years before already. Complete nothing match not even accomplishing anything except re-introducing Taker as the old Dead Man, which reeks of character reboot for nostalgia purpose (yes, we're deep in the 00's and the past is already looking more appealing to the WWE). Waste of Mania time, especially for Mania 20 at the MSG. Kane sure was a safe worker though, in that it was always a safe bet you’re gonna get a shitty, boring match with him. I reiterate, I had not watched him in years and he’s even worst than I remembered. 4-8

I think it was a on the KC WWF 1995 Year in Review. The most obvious spot was Shawn over-rotating on Nash's Jacknife. Nash was like "Yeah of course you're gonna do that !"

I just thought about that one when I was writing my previous post. Yeah, isn't that crazy ? Bret totally had a point, but then Shawn gets saddled with that old fucker for his entire champion stint and gets booed the hell out of MSG, while Bret comes back and insist on having that feud with Austin, which will end up being the most important one by FAR, and much better than anything Shawn has done during that entire time.

He failed miserably against Tiger Mask Misawa.

I for one am glad. Vince injecting himself into the scene as a "pro-wrestler" at the Rumble and then at St Valentines was a part (a big part even) of killing my WWF fandom back then. Hogan vs Vince was one of the most ridiculous and putrid vanity matches I've ever seen, and by no mean I'm a Hogan fan.

And honestly, he was right, it absolutely did not fit his character at all to have the young, jumping around hearthrob World champ being followed by some old guy who was not even a famous guy from the company's history (not that it would have changed anything). The only good use of Lotahrio was getting blasted by Sid.

The issue is that, as always with Corny, it's old stuff. Who knows, maybe you'd ask Omega and he'll tell you he was dead wrong back then and was just a young punk. And maybe he wouldn't but that would be irrelevant anyway because, again, his track record speaks of itself. I mean, Corny is pissed for stuff that happened 15, 20 years ago and stays stuck there forever (like he's been stuck with the idea that Omega is a mud-show attraction because he wrestled that kid once, years ago, and the reality of main eventing huge shows with Okada in historical matches just can't even reach him, much less make him think). The one thing I get from all of this is that pro-wrestling isn't very punk-rock at all. It's like it's 1978 all over again and a bunch of aging, balding uncool guys (ie Corny, in this case) are whining about those scrawny looking kids who don't even know how to play their guitar because they haven't been taught properly and can't for the life of them play a nice solo. And let's not even go into the "hip-hop is not real music" stuff, which unironically enough I've heard Corny say too btw. As far as *having to respect* the elders who "paved the way" and the usual bullshit, ya know, when a whole lot of them where truly awful people, I'm not sure this is a requisite either.

So it pretty much invalidates the fact that they were conscious of the Streak, because otherwise they would not have booked Taker in a tag-team match. OR, they did get conscious of it and they used the pretext of Jones sucking to take him out the match at the last moment.

No idea, but that would be quite funny. "Fuck man, you suck, let Taker & Train have a good match and you'll only show up at the end to do the one spot your sorry ass can do !" It's not like Nathan Jones lit the world on fire after that either.

WrestleMania XIX (2003) – Undertaker vs A-Train & Big Show What an odd match to book. Way to make Big Show nothing special at all, although that ship had sailed a long time ago anyway. It’s quite interesting that WWE (finally) moved Mania back into big stadiums each year after their peak years of the Attitude Era, making Mania mean more than it ever had before despite their constant loss of overall popularity. And I love the stadium settings with crazy entrance sets too, so that's all good for me. And there’s a crazy entrance for you as Limp Bizkit (it was really the end of the line for him in term of mainstream pop culture relevancy) is rollin rollin rollin live with a bunch of dancers to boot and Biker Taker rolls on his ride with the USA (that would need to be made great again eventually) flag. I can’t stand Bizkit but as a pro-wrestling entrance in this context and setting, yeah, it does slap. Hey, a Smackdown ref ! And Micheal Cole announcing and actually referring to the 10-0 streak ! Here we are ! And maybe the booking of this match kinda came from that very fact, that the Streak was now a really conscious thing so it was enough to just throw Taker a bunch of monsters to kill again. But unlike in the 90’s, it’s actually good ! Nothing classic at all, but A-Train was a terrific worker as showed here, he carries almost the entire load, and I don’t just mean of the match, as Big Show is late-WCW heavy and produces barely more than King Kong Bundy in 95. A-Train goes in the air for the chokeslam after about 10 seconds so you know how much these guys matter, but the match is short, dynamic (apart from a quite laughable abdominal stretch spot as if both these guys turned into I.R.S.), with Taker showing his brand new passion : shootsyle mofo ! Turning Big Show’s attempted chokeslam into an arm bar actually looked pretty damn cool. But really, it’s A-Train being a really good working big guy here, also taunting Taker as he’s not « the Big Dog ! ». Taker on fire (amazing contrast when you think about his early 90’s match, you could make a case it’s not even the same guy) doing Old School and even the flying clothesline, nothing is pretty but it’s just pretty explosive all along. The finish involves Nathan Jones of all people, yeah, remember that guy ? Me neither. Those bizarre post Attitude Era/pre-John Cena days I guess. So anyway, he’s kicking some monster’s ass and Taker does a fat Tombstone on A-Train. Short and surprisingly good and fun, from the totally over the top intro to the dynamic action with A-Train as an excellent dance partner. 4 -7

Pathetic like an old guy who instead of enjoying himself after a great career is forcing himself to do something he hates to cater to an audience of haters, because apparently it makes him some dough. Life is too short. He's obviously not gonna change *anything* about where pro-wrestling is now nor where it's going (which is something no one knows about, and that's the exciting part). Hey, maybe he's getting some elation about hating something or someone, his track record certainly seems to indicate as much. But then again, it's a sad way of reaching for joy. If Corny and his followers get schadenfreude out of spending time watching something they hate, well, I guess to each their own... BTW, my defense of Matt really was about something I feel very strongly about pro-wrestling in general, so it's really more about this than about the Bucks themselves (I'm well beyond the idea of having to "defend" them like I would some guys I like from IMPACT for instance, the Bucks & Omega are the zeitgeist).

Honestly this thread is beating on a dead horse soooo much. I mean, if you want to criticize the current stuff, you can do it without referring to that old sad carny whose only activity is hate-watching for $ purposes. This is so pathetic, honestly.

Except there's no reason why not. No reason that pertains to real life, because big guy with muscle doesn't equal strong (nor tough); no reason that pertains to pro-wrestling as basically producing signs that are understood (and accepted) by an audience. Matt Jackson does a double nothern light suplex and it works all time (in term of execution, bumping and selling by the opponents and reaction by the audience). Therefore, there's no reason at all to say he shouldn't do this or that, unless you're applying a very limitating grid of what you *think* *should* be done in the context of a pro-wrestling match, which is what Cornette (and others) do all the time. Except it's wrong, because there's no rule whatsoever of what *should* be done. What people think are "rules" (like : a big guy should always work this way, a tag team match should be only worked this way) are basically just old habits and tropes that people think are best, usually because that's what they grew up on but also because they attribute false values (including "moral" ones) to them for strictly subjective reasons.

About this, the most out of the blue thing ever was during IMPACT's last week show (I believe, or maybe at the PPV), maybe during Rohit Raju's match, Matt Striker goes something like "BTW there's a farmer's protest strike in India, just putting notice on that.". I guess Striker is quite an ok guy IRL, maybe.

So, Flair wasn't good and Taker made a Mania match into a personal training session. Not a positive point for either in my book !

I saw it on Superstars. That being said, I also saw the Shawn Micheals vs Bret Hart ladder match from the same period on Superstars, as the French version had added stuff like stuff from MSG or other house shows on regular basis too (and later on some RAW matches sometimes, at least until 94/95 where things became really streamlined and we got the same exact stuff I believe). Yes, I'm aware of that and it's pretty obvious there with him blowing two key spots pretty badly. That being said, I won't detract my point about Flair later on in the decade being insanely overrated.

Chapter 5 : It seems like we have a winning streak going on here... WrestleMania X8 (2002) – Undertaker vs Ric Flair We’re getting closer and closer to referring to a streak, as JR mentions every year that Taker has not been beaten at Mania. It’s 2002, the last time Howard Finkel does the announcing, the Attitude Era has ended the previous year and the company is now starting its long, slow descent into the monopoly era, getting progressively less and less popular, evolving less and less, eventually looking back at pre-2001 as the apex of their History. Flair first Mania match in ten years, at 53 years old, ponder that for a minute. Yes, this is indeed one of these "dream match happening too late but it's still cool it's happening deal", although Taker and Flair had a match on TV in the Fall of 92 during the zombie era, in which Taker basically no-sold everything Flair did... Despite the fact the Attitude Era is gone, they both bump onto the table outside after about 20 seconds, so yeah, this stuff is still en vogue. Flair throws the best punches any Taker opponent has since Jake Roberts. Lots of fire too at the beginning before Taker, who’s a heel again here, takes over and it’s kinda like the previous year's match except Flair bumps a lot less. As he should, because he totally fucks up his Flair bump in the corner. In a clear sign of « we don’t think on our feet », they go back in the opposite corner with more punching so Taker can re-launch Flair so he can finally do the Flair bump, into a big boot which throws him on the outside. When you have a planned spot, you have a planned spot... BTW, Taker has short hair now and it looks odd. Still is dressed like Kevin Nash and interestingly enough, he actually does a lot of Nash spots now like the elbows in the corner, the sidewalk slam and the transition where his leg gets crotched on the top rope on a failed big boot. What is not a Nash spot however is that huge top rope superplex that is super impressive. Apart from this, it’s honestly kinda tedious to watch when Taker is on offense, beating Flair who’s bleeding like a pig and actually getting him up *twice* on pinfalls, so it kinda comes off as a prolongued squash (as if nothing really had changed in the perception Vince had of Flair since 1992, except now the excuse is that he's old and passed his prime, a terrific way to put him over, really). After the huge superplex, Flair will basically not take any other bump and just throw huge chops to the delight of the audience who reacts big for this. But really, even when they do the same counter off « Old School » as the previous year, Flair just can’t get any offense in for more than three seconds until they go outside and Flair uses a led pipe from the bike (this is no DQ). So, double blood, Flair gets a balls shot in, figure four spot follows, it’s Flair playing the hits basically as there was zero work on the legs before, but it pops the crowd and that’s Flair game. Short sell, counter with the choke leading of course into the chokeslam. Nearfall of sorts, twice... From then Taker hits the ref because whatever, gets the led pipe and it's time for the spot of the night of course, as Arn hits the spinebuster from nowhere and we get The Nearfall (which really made the whole match famous). Arn gets booted in the face to earn his money, Flair with a bunch of chairs to the back and we’re in smokes and mirrors territory. And then we get another occurence of Flair being way past his prime, as Taker can’t get him up for the Last Ride and has to put him down. Second try : Flair basically drops to the ground in a sorta « nope, not going up man » way so Taker just grabs him and gets the Tombstone for the win. Well, apart from the two huge spots (the superplex and of course Arn's), this is an *ok* match which still reads almost as a long, semi-competitive squash of an older guy. I remember back then lots of people were going gaga over it and for years to come we’ve heard the ridiculous « Flair can outwork 90% of the roster » talking point but the reality of things is that Flair screwed up his own classic bump then screwed up the finish, not once, but twice. He bled, used object shots and played a few hits (big chops, balls shot, figure four, all of which popped the crowd like crazy), but apart from this, he did not look good. The fact Flair is who he is and this is Mania and you got that awesome Arn spot factor a whole lot in this match being *crazy* overrated. Overall, it’s pretty good and enjoyable because of the star power, with one crazy great spot and nearfall on Taker (maybe the best until this point). 3-7

Nope, G.L.O.W was awesome.

His trolling has been reported several times over the last few days.