El-P

Totally agree. Indeed. No idea about the self-checked, but people are way overreacting to the "Wished all the best". First, and since we're deeply into linguistics here (fuck my science language research mastered ass), this is a very formal politeness kind of statement. We all have joked enough about WWE's infamous "wish you the best" stuff. It doesn't convey any kind of warm or friendly feeling at all. Plus, the guy is going in rehab. Better this than nothing (unless actual charges are filed). So, they are addressing a guy with mental issues. Ok, what are they supposed to say ? "Go fuck yourself on rehab, you dick !" . So, wishing him to get better while he's gone anyway for the time being and not so sure he'll be brought back when he's out (then there's the whole "what does rehab do on short term, really, issue that has been talked about earlier on). I mean, nothing to get mad about, really.

Well, you have not understood what I said. I said that the meaning of a proposition can't be deciphered in a vacuum. Language doesn't work in a vacuum. Language works in a context with a thousands elements to it which plays a role in human interactions. Using an ideologic grid to say that proposition X or Y absolutely refers to idea X or Y doesn't work. Now, you can say something in a certain context, with a certain intent and it can still be misunderstood by the person that proposition was intended toward (not even mentioning for instance someone for whom the proposition is *not* intended to but still hears it). Not that it is the fault of anyone. There's so many super complex issues at hands here, but I don't think this is the place for interactionist linguistics discussions (especially since I wouldn't be at ease developping on that topic in a language that isn't my own, as my English is good enough but not *that* good). What I'm saying is that you can't say that the proposition "She's super hot" is absolutely objectifying. Of course it can. As purely aesthetic judgement. Now, if you are saying that there can't be purely aesthetic judgement on how people look, well, I dunno what to tell you. Everybody does it all the time, men and women alike. And there's nothing wrong with that. No. Not at all. I'm sorry but this just isn't valid in any way shape or form. Now, "She's super hot" can absolutely be an inappropriate, objectifying or even worse proposition. But everything can be an horrifying proposition. Any word of any kind can be used to produce a godawful discourse. But there's no word or proposition in a vacuum that is absolutely anything.

I've gotta say this though, the Twitter crowd is insufferable.

Say what you will, that is an apology that reads like one.

Yeah, Meltz made that point about how that part of the culture, the whole "secret society", certainly helped to make things even worse. But yeah, it's all over the map. There's no "pristine". You, we, can just try to help make things get better. Or less worse.

Honestly it's not a pro-wrestling thing. Same scandal happened in figure-skating in France a few months ago. And other sports too. And basically where we don't hear about it is because people are still scared to talk. And that's only the tip of the iceberg because it's the entertainment industry (yeah, I put sport in entertainment) but it's the same thing everywhere. Abuse and domination. I know, this world sucks.

What if the first thing I say about one of my co-workers is "She's dumb as fuck." ? So that is ok. But "She's hot as fuck" isn't. I'm sorry but I eluded to this before and that's something I don't intend on developing much more here, but to me that has everything to do with a very conflicted relationship to everything relating to the body in society that is still very much ingrained in puritanism. And I won't go further because PWO. Plus and if I may, it's not how language works . "She's super hot" can definitely be objectifying as it can also absolutely not be, everything depends of so many elements : the intent put behind the proposition, the social context, the tone of the voice, whom it is said to, the relationship between whom is producing the sentence and who it is destined to, is the person referred to is present of not when it's been said, what is the relationship between the person who says it and the person referred to etc etc... There's no essentialisation of the language for ideologic purposes (even if the motives come from a good place). Ok.I thought for a moment that it was a "thing" or a trend with young boys to say "I wanna rape her" to basically say a girl was super hot or something, which would have been super disturbing to say the very least.

That's me BTW if anyone wonders (I'm not sure a lot of posters still active now actually know me by name). Yeah, agree about that statement. I've been vocal about really enjoying IMPACT for instance (despite knowing what I know about some people there, cognitive dissonance indeed for selfish reasons), but after these last few days and the sinking feeling (to quote The The), I'm not so sure what to think anymore. I'm waiting to see what they do with their next show and if they'll address the situation in some form. I can't see for the life of me them still featuring Joey Ryan, in the Cancel Culture gimmick no less (yeah, karma is a bitch like someone stated), on their upcoming programs... That being said, and after listening to the very interesting show by Meltz, which tried to paint the broader picture in all its complexity, I'm afraid it's gonna be hard because although some heads will fall, the heads wth the most power (and therefore the most abuse on their hands) probably won't until some people in position to do so step up, but these women also are the ones which will have the most to lose and will be the most scared to "really" speak up (as opposed to "show their support to the brave ones"). Still waiting to know about what the fuck happened with Ashley Massaro (because this one reeks of victim shaming and manipulation) for instance... So I cant say I'm very optimistic, sadly, and it will make for some pretty uncomfortable times watching pro-wrestling, knowing what we know but also knowing we still ignore a lot...

Hum... No. I'm sorry. No. Saying someone (men or women) is hot is neither immature nor problematic. Let's not be completely ridiculous now. That's completely insane. On the other hand : When the sentence "I want to rape her" ever was a joke ? I mean, what ? First time I'm hearing this. But anyway. Yes, that's just an awful and dumb as fuck shit to say. Hopefully the guy doesn't speak that way today.

Is it the worst, most heartbreaking week in pro-wrestling since the Benoit thing ? To me it is. And it's actually a lot worse when you think about it, it's not one guy doing a terrible thing, it's the veil being lifted off on a systemic issue. But we all kinda knew. Maybe not to that extent, and I was one thinking that the new generation was a whole lot better than the previous ones (wow, that comment sure did not aged well). I just hope this won't be swept under the rug and stop at the gates of the big dogs...

Now, at least there's no ambiguity about this. Whoever write that is a piece of shit. Aries... ok... well... Again, when people are acting houlier than thou, it's never a good sign and I am *never* surprised when those kind of people end up being creeps and assholes, or more.

That's basic human behaviour. Being self-conscious about it proves that you're aware of the faulty way the human mind functions. We're all fucked up by cognitive bias of all sorts. This is one. We would all prefer that all the criminals here would be people we already "don't like", even if for totally different reasons, because it reassures us that the world, and life, is fair. Plus it's always more comfortable to be "right". And it's very uncomfortable to feel like we've been tricked or have genuinely loved someone who did such awful things (not to mention cases of denial after the fact). So yeah. On a much smaller scale, it gives us like stuff like how Seth Rollins bashing Cornette after he insulted his wife could only be some unsincere bullshit because after all, the guy doesn't sell the knee when he does falcon arrows as a transitional move... But of course it makes no sense. And life isn't fair. And it's ok to be wrong. Basically it's better to be more removed. Honestly and speaking for me only, I think after the Benoit stuff I was done with being disappointed (weak word in that case of course, horrified was more like it). Always expect the worse and be happy when it doesn't happen. I guess I'm "blasé". They can out anyone, I'm ok with it as long as it makes the scene better, I won't regret anyone. Although I must admit, my enthousiasm about the current stuff is WAY down, I won't lie. (although maybe it shouldn't because at least now things can happen, hopefully) Yep. Speaking of Kylie, I wonder what happens next on IMPACT considering several names working there have been mentioned.

MLW ring announcer Mark Adam Haggerty released by the promotion. What's with ring announcers and being creepy with underages ?

Where does that say "Will Ospreay asked us to not book you" ? I'm sorry but this is exactly why these matters are complex and why posting stuff on Twitter don't fly in term of being able to judge things. Like I said I'd love to have the supernatural powers people seem to have on social media. They sure know tons of shit I don't. And before anyone says something really stupid, I don't care one way or another about any of those guys. Hopefully all the criminals will have to face their actions in court and all the wrongdoers of many kind will face repercussions, and hopefully if there are few names who have been thrown under the bus for no reasons they'll be cleared.

So basically the guy made a stupid tweet (maybe in good faith) defending the dickhead friend in question. He denies blacklisting the girl. That's exactly why the whole "list" stuff was stupid (and it's really responsible people seriously working on this have distanced themselves from it). All cases are differents and you can't put Ospreay's name even close to, say, David Starr of Matt Riddle if both those cases are confirmed (and really, looking from there, they don't look good).

Totally agree with that. That's the secular equivalent of all those assholes getting "born-again". I've said before the whole "mental health issue" was thrown at any occasion now, and this is another. From all accounts, guys like Jimmy Havoc most likely have some. But there are also people who are just douchebags and assholes period. BTW, Madusa about some "old-school ribs". With Missy chiming in (with that "born-again" stuff rearing up its ugly head again too). And they are totally right. This was part of the culture and for years we've heard these stories in shoot-interviews, back in the days of the good ole days when boys would be boys... The women from back then would have a whole lot to say about "the culture".

About apologies, sorry to have to say that but there's no way to gauge who is sincere and who is not. I always thought public contrition was a completely ridiculous thing anyway. Then again, maybe I'm from a different culture. People who have fucked up and sincerely regret what they have done should apologize to the people whom they have hurt in private, because this is a private matter. I know I may sound like the bad guy here but... first there's the Twitter trials, then we're also gonna judge which apology sounds sincere and which doesn't ? We're gonna judge a whole lot of things we don't know shit about, really. I would love to have the power of reading minds through a post on Twitter too. (not to say I don't find some of those reeking of fake sincerity, but that's not the point I'm making) What is important today is that the victims aren't afraid to speak up, that their stories are heard and taken seriously, that charges are gonna be filed whenever it's possible and that criminals are punished by the justice system, that companies takes their responsibility when evidence of abuse is there (and that dealing with those people for real, not for PR) and most of all that mentalities evolve so that this kind of shit happens less and less.

Yeah, that's what I'd think too. BTW, Lagana was a big name but on the NWA front, Thom Latimer has also been mentioned (for violent behaviour and psychological abuse), with callbacks to the time he was married with Charlotte Flair. FTR He's currently dating Kamille.

Yeah, it's totally ridiculous. Not only that, but at some point, you gotta admit that although things may not be ideal in other pro-wrestling companies, Vince McMahon has been accused of rape before, has most probably covered for the murder of a woman, employed Jerry Lawler for years because "he has great punchlines" despite you know what, and much more. And if we're only gonna talk about current matters at hands and not even mention his ties with sexist, homophobic, racist Trump, he's getting a whole lot of money to promote MBS's Saudi Arabia, which is a criminal regime who had a journalist chopped off in pieces, who's leading a genocidal war in Yemen and legally torture and kills homosexuals. At some point, sorry but a bunch of charity (which is disgusting PR no matter whatever "good" they do) isn't gonna cut it. Hum... In the past no doubt but in today's world, I would be more doubtful. NOAH lost its TV because they were outed has having ties with yakuzas years ago and never recovered from that. Yeah, pro-wrestling is a less than ideal workplace (hell, corporate america is a scummy world.... capitalism makes the world a scummy world everywhere) but at some point, yeah it's ok to have big ideas but really when you make BIG money from such an awful company, you should either shut the fuck up or leave, really.

I totally second the sentiment expressed by @DMJ about the music industry, I had been thinking about the same thing, and coincidentally, also about Led Zeppelin because they are some of the most infamous of that era. Dre is a great exemple also, although I was always bothered by the outright misogyny/homophobia in some hip-hop genres, my own cognitive dissonance being helped somewhat by the fact I'm not an English speaking person and some stuff fly over my head (well, in Dre's albums, not much) but I very often thought about I would never be able to enjoy it the same way if the same lyrics were in French (some stuff on 2001 are just making me ashamed of listening to it just as it is, really, and I love this album). To me the whole thing raises another issue is that, to speak strictly about pro-wrestling, the entire "legacy" we always refer to is built on a whole lot of really scummy people, not to say a majority of them. And that's an issue when you honor the past, really. I'm not saying this because I'm trying to get internet point (not me, come on, you know me around this place), but one reason I basically decided to only watch current stuff (apart from ten years old TNA, which is not a really different era than now) is that at one point, it was getting too uncomfortable for me to watch stuff from the past because of the stuff we know about, and everything we don't know. Yeah, you can always enjoy a good Rockers match, but then I think about those stories of drugging women told by Jannetty while Rob Feinstein is laughing about it (ponder that for a minute) and realize that these are just godawful people and I just don't *need* to watch any of this stuff, ever again. I've watched it before, I loved it *then* but I really don't need and even less want to try and get pleasure out of watching those truly awful people *now*. What does good ol' christian boy Shawn Micheals has to say about all these years of basically sexual harassing girls and drug raping fans ? I'll make an analogy that will seem truly bizarre, but which is not to me. Let's take the Tour de France. Their entire legacy, at the very least from the early/mid-80's, is basically totally fake, because of doping. Yet everyone is forced to refer to its "legend", because they are selling the audience a product of entertainment and the "legend" is a big part of its brand marketing. But it makes no sense whatsoever to pretend things are clean now when you still refer to those doped-as-fuck cyclist of the last 25 years (and I'm being generous) as legends and great sportsmen and the like and when those people are all over the announcing booths. Yeah, it's great if things change in pro-wrestling. But then we still are gonna refer to the Rock'n' Roll Express as the greatest team ever, and they sure were, but as Meltz put it quite bluntly once "If there isn't a 15 years old in the back getting down on the boys, it's not the territories." This was the reality of things and it's impossible to ignore. I'm sure not everyone back then was rotten either, but still. So yeah, let's make pro-wrestling a safer place and shit, but if we're still namedropping Art Barr, Buddy Rose, Jerry Lawler, Dick Murdock and all those guys who were great wrestlers and also pieces of crap in the commentaries because that's what pro-wrestling has been built on, yeah, there is a cognitive dissonance on the broader level. And it's kind of an unsolvable issue as of now. Anyway, I'm ranting, just wanted to throw that out there.

That's actually quite the interesting take !

It sucks that it has to happen, but it's great that it's happening. Also, remember Ashley Massaro. Back then, nothing budged. No one said jackshit. Hopefully this case resurfaces too, because there's something really ugly about it. As far as "losing heroes", no pro-wrestler is a hero to me. I don't care. We all know and for years we all pretended it was allright. How many "Flair showed his dick" stories do we have to listen until we realize that it is actually not *that* funny ? How many "but he throws a great punches" do we have to hear again ? Someone should compile some extracts of those old RF Video shoot interviews about ribbing and ring rats, how awful is this, really ? There's a totally toxic culture that we basically have accepted because hell, everything can't be perfect. But most of all, I hope this doesn't stop in front of the gates of the big dogs. We all know who are we talking about...

Yeah. I did not need to see that either. Spoiler tags damnit.

I was about to say that NWA dodged one hell of a bullet when Corny quit following his "non-racist" joke, but then again, there are allegations against Lagana (which I have not read)....

And this is where it's gonna get tricky, because if some of those guys are falsely accused (even if it's 5% of them), this needs to be addressed too. And those who are lying about it, they are complete dirtbags using other people real suffering for whatever personal goal of vengeance they have.