El-P

Is the suggestion that because there are fewer styles, they are all equally important? Because it's ridiculous to compare pro-wrestling and music, plain and simple. I know people like to babble about how "pro-wrestling is an artform", but it really isn't (and no, I'm not intending on debating that tired point again). And even if it was, what's the point of making analogies and comparison between different artforms ? To accomplish what ? And yes, all style of pro-wrestling can be considered as equally important, especially since, when you really think about it, they are not *that* much different. Shoot-style being the one I can accept looks the most different from all the others (and still, it depends who is doing it, a lot of UWF-I big matches involved pro-wrestlers from pro-style companies like Vader or John Tenta, not to mention the feud with New Japan). It's even more true these days.

Any musical analogy just don't work. Forget it people.

To me there was always a live action shôjo aspect to the whole Crush Gals mania.

Inter-gender match in LU are basically as good as you can make them without being too unrealistic of make the process idiotic looking, since there are a lot of spots playing with body momentum and such, which already looke "funny" in pure lucha anyway. When they're dealing with a huge size and weight difference, because that's really what it comes down to, they are trying to do the most of it kinda like the small woman would be a small man. Still, at some point, there's still this fact of a man hitting a woman which can get creepy quite quickly. The worst representation of "feminism" always have been Russo's of course. PMS. Say no more. Bayley is really the closest thing from a totally unsexualised (but still cute, as in, not made to look like some kind of ugly nerd like she would have in the past) and positive feminist figure in WWE. Stephy sure isn't. Japanese wrestlers, I think it's a whole different ballgame, as you can't essentialize things, and I think one would have to really understand the Japanese society and its codes to really talk about it. When I heard Dylan write than Dump vs Chiggy had "rape porn" element in it, I really cringed for instance.

Some people are trendsetters. Some people follow trends. Human nature. The WWE narratives surely are the strongest in term of setting trends that the mianstream fan is following. Shawn Michaels = greatest wrestler ever is one. It sure helps his case in some circles. Not so much around here, where it probably even has a negative, opposite effect as a reaction.

Glad they didn't show that... PPV 50 First legit great match in TNA in 2003 (and maybe ever ?). AMX vs XXX (Skipper & Daniels) cage match. Tenay taking shots at the climbing cage gimmick was kinda funny. Straight out of WCW 1995. They worked it old-school with blood, not going insane with the cage gimmick, really milking the babyfaces comebacks than escalating the tension at the end before an awesome finish. Two huge dives that made sense. Kudos to Skipper who seemed to have hurt himself early in the match but worked it through anyway. Daniels is just terrific, does a lot of small things right actually. Plus it was the opener so great kickstart to this show. Then of course, you have to reduce the impact of this match, so we get an impromptu match in the cage between AJ Styles & D-Lo Brown. With blood. Of course. Keeping the big cage match unique would make too much sense. Russo runs-in. Fuck, he’s gonna ruin every AJ Styles segment now. At least the action was promising and they’re making an effort to build D-Lo to somewhat main-event level. As far as good stuff goes, Shane Douglas cut a good focused promo, talking about how he ruined the legacy of the NWA ten years before and now Raven wants to rehabilitate it. Kinda liked how he basically no-sold Jarrett’s reign in hindsight. Leads to a Douglas & Gilberti vs Raven & Jarrett main event, which went off the wheel. Pretty good brawling at first, but then Raven hurt his ankle on a terrible looking tope and Gilberti & Jarrett weren’t too good. Douglas looked fat and rusty. Raven actually did a terrific job working hurt and keeping things together, but the ending was poorly executed. Jarrett is using the guitar gimmick again now. Oh, fuck me, that really didn't make any sense in WCW, and does even less now. Shane Douglas isn’t working for Russo but for James Mitchell. This, I can get behind. Jerry Lynn & Justin Credible had a short but intense brawl starting outside the building. Damn, the TNA Asylum looks really redneck from the surroundings. Poor finish though, with Lollipop busting out of her cage and injury herself, leading to Jerry Lynn being kinda distracted but still winning the match with a roll-up on the ramp. Yeah, that’s how you win a lights out match, with a roll-up. Next week, Russian chain match. Idiotic (comes from nowhere) but at least we’ll see how Lynn handles this kind of gimmick. X-division match was Chris Sabin vs Frankie Kazarian. Moves. Lot of them. Funky looking. By that I mean awkward. No selling. You turn my turn. Sloppy execution. They picked it up a bit at the very end, but this is basically a wankfest by two young indy guys who have no idea how to work. Sabin should have tagged with Harris, he was so much better in that context. Erik Watts finally gets to work a match against Kid Kash, which was watchable I guess. Abyss is helping Kash & Goldilock (Hudson has disappeared BTW) shows her concern and cleavage. The stupid Hard Ten tournament is still going on, New Jack is doing comedy with Shark Boy, BJ James does a really funny impersonnation of Don West. So I guess now the minority guys are comedians. Yeah, BJ James is a minority guy because he’s street, basically. SEX is done. And oh : Stupid turn of the week : Trinity. Turning heel to join the ex-SEX guys, choking Goldilock from nowhere, for absolutely no reason. One week after they showed that very good babyface video package and after weeks of abuse by Kid Kash. Clap clap clap. Glorious. 2003/06/25 Jerry Lynn vs Justin Credible 2003/06/25 AMX vs XXX (Skipper & Daniels)

Lutteroth's name comes from the french word "lutteur", which means, "wrestler". Make of that what you want, I'm no lucha expert at all.

Haven't followed WWE at all since Mania. Funny line up with Owens vs Zayn & Enzo Amore & Big Cass vs. The Vaudevillains + AJ Styles in the main event. It's like NXT undercard with a TNA guy main eventing. Wacky 2016 pro-wrestling.

Ditto.

Let's not become the Pitchfork of pro-wrestling, please. That said, Mtume and Frankie Knuckles rule.

I feel like we sort of survived the whole process together. We always argued with one another, five years ago, three years ago, now. This was never a shiny happy agreeable place. But we treat each other with respect for the most part and we enjoy it. I think we will be stronger for having survived this. One day after the other. One day after the other...

This. It really isn't. There is no nice way to say this but people have been driven away from the reactions thread because they did not enjoy your complaining. Most of the posts -- and not just from you -- have been more about complaining about placement and harping on the weaknesses of the greats. Well, life's a bitch. Bitching and moaning was always part of the fun of the countdown, and I do think that although things were a lot more abrasive in 2006 from what I remember, people also took themselves, and the whole process, way less seriously. I mean, at some point, the whole "mainstream US" thing became a freaking running gag. People got driven away ? You mean, like Parv who couldn't grace us with his wisdom to the point of posting his reaction "essay" not-on-the-board ? What, we're not worthy ? Give me a freaking break. Tons of people haven't been driven away too. We bitched, we celebrated, we got absurd and pissed. Kinda like it should. The rest... literature...

The whole "corrosive" talking point is melodramatic bullshit, really.

SWJ ? What do you mean ? Like, saying Kamala was a racist gimmick ? Or that a babyface hitting a woman was wrong ? I haven't seen much SWJ creeping up to be honest. Pro-wrestling is a pretty low form of entertainment (sorry guys, it just is, doesn't mean I don't love it) with historically tons of awful things attached to it : bullying, racism, jingoism, bigotry, misogyny, homophobia, you name it. Yeah it would be great to see "the business", as they say, evolve, and I don't see what's wrong about talking about social issues inside the wrestling world and how they are presented and how we perceived them and how it influences our viewing experience. I mean, even when I was 14, I hated Jim Duggan's jingoist shit.

It's a mess, I'm telling you. #1 Jumbo Tsuruta #2 Stan Hansen #3 Terry Funk #4 Toshiaki Kawada #5 Kiyoshi Tamura #6 Genichiro Tenryu #7 Mitsuharu Misawa #8 Nobuhiko Takada #9 Jushin Liger #10 Nick Bockwinkle #11 Shinya Hashimoto #12 Kenta Kobashi #13 Arn Anderson #14 Bret Hart #15 Aja Kong #16 Mayumi Ozaki #17 Bull Nakano #18 Rey Misterio Jr. #19 Mariko Yoshida #20 Ric Flair #21 Vader #22 Ricky Steamboat #23 Daniel Bryan #24 Dustin Rhodes #25 Akira Hokuto #26 Akira Taue #27 Yoshiaki Fujiwara #28 AJ Styles #29 Shinsuke Nakamura #30 Naoki Sano #31 Chris Benoit #32 Ricky Morton #33 Bobby Eaton #34 Hiroshi Tanahashi #35 Bob Backlund #36 CM Punk #37 Volk Han #38 Brock Lesnar #39 Kazuo Yamazaki #40 Barry Windham #41 Tatsumi Fujinami #42 Hiroshi Hase #43 Brian Pillman #44 Eddie Guerrero #45 Mick Foley #46 2 Cold Scorpio #47 Randy Savage #48 Rick Martel #49 Mr. Gannosuke #50 Hayabusa #51 Jaguar Yokota #52 Kyoko Inoue #53 Akira Maeda #54 Manami Toyota #55 Shane Douglas #56 Owen Hart #57 Dan Kroffat #58 Azumi Hyuga #59 Mima Shimoda #60 Takako Inoue #61 Steve Austin #62 Shiro Koshinaka #63 Tommy Rogers #64 Masato Tanaka #65 Tully Blanchard #66 Curt Hennig #67 Tracey Smothers #68 Megumi Kudo #69 Sean Waltman
 #70 Sabu #71 Dynamite Kansai #72 Yoshihiro Tajiri #73 Steve Regal #74 Greg Valentine #75 Terry Gordy #76 Shinjiro Ohtani #77 Chris Jericho #78 Shawn Michaels #79 Riki Choshu #80 Giant Baba #81 Marty Jannetty #82 Buddy Rose #83 Dick Murdoch #84 Jerry Lawler #85 Chris Candido #86 Keiji Mutoh #87 TAKA Michinoku #88 Yumi Fukawa #89 Steve Williams #90 Cuty Suzuki #91 Tsuyoshi Khosaka #92 Jerry Lynn #93 Atsushi Onita #94 Savio Vega #95 Masa Fuchi #96 DDP #97 Jinsei Shinzaki #98 Dutch Mantell #99 Andre the Giant #100 Raven

How do you remember all of this ? I think I was still around when the Best of WWF/E matches poll happened. I know I was there during the first restart. I remember a Best WCW match poll in which I don't think I tool part in. I began posting here in 2008 so that timeframe makes sense.

I realized voting for Andre was maybe my way of representing France on the poll. Well, expect it really wasn't. But hey, that's one French guy on the top 100.

PPV 49 For their first Anniversary show, TNA managed to put on the worst show possible considering what was on paper. New entrance set so the show looks more like a second rate Thunder now. God Bless Lollipop. What could have been the show stealer, XXX (Daniels & Skipper) vs AMW, ended up being a rushed Nitro seven minutes match with the wrong team going over. It was still the best action on the show, but AMW not going over is kinda ridiculous. The X-division match between Chris Sabin & Paul London is exactly what I don’t care for, a bunch of spectacular moves and sequences with no rhyme or reason (London doing an amazing shooting star press of the apron two minutes into the match and it meant zilch), with a lot of contrived stuff. When you’re only doing moves that look special, nothing is actually special anymore. London really is your posterboy for 00’s indy guy. Booking had CM Punk, who wants to impress Raven, do a Raven impersonnation and screw London, so there goes your clean finishes in the « workrate » division. Jerry Lynn vs Justin Credible could have been the savior of the undercard as they had really good stuff in ECW, but it was cut short with a terrible job by the ref, who looked inept. The six-man opener of Siaki, Heavy D. & David Young vs D-Lo, Kazarian & Sandman (who barely entered the ring) was decent but again, totally rushed. Because you see, you needed time for your 30 mn Vince Russo segment talking about WWE and shit. He looks ridiculous with that perm too. Anyway, Raven wants to beat him up (I feel your pain) but Shane Douglas jumps on him. Waste of time during which Sting makes his first appearance, closely followed by Jeff Jarrett so he can get the huge Sting pop too and pretend he's over. What a carny. And we get more Russo shooty bullshit before the main event as he introduces Sean Waltman (in street clothes) who supposedly said he would never work with him again. Wait ? Where ? When ? I guess in shoot interviews on the Internet. And the announcers have to act like it’s a known fact. Pathetic stuff. Jarrett & Sting vs Waltman & AJ Styles was pretty good before it got all clusterfucky with *more* Russo, Raven & Douglas run-ins, but Jarrett looked the worst of the four again, and yet still got the win. He can be glad daddy (who was interviewed by Tenay earlier to say basically nothing) got a promotion for him to play around. No wonder he and Dixie understood each other, there are two of the same. Sting is more over than anyone else since the beginning of the promotion and really brings on some legit star power. But I guess it was a one shot before he came in for good much later. A few decent stuff in the undercard like that funny parody interview with Konnan & Ron Killings as BG James played racist Mike Tenay. Wait, I thought they were supposed to be babyfaces ? And a good Trinity video package showing her stunt work, building her as the female ace of the promotion. Too bad she kinda sucks in the ring actually when she has do work an entire match, because she looked good here. And some awful stuff, a stupid Hard Ten (duh !) match with New Jack (who’s playing along Shark Boy these days) and Mike Sanders and an awful segment with Watts interviewing Kid Kash who got applause when he said he was beating his women. Fucking rednecks. And Goldylock in a cage backstage with Abyss, unexplained. And a terrible Saturn vs Kenzo Suzuki match with a swerve as Justin Credible screws his ECW partner. Suzuki sure looks good physically, but he’s just rough to watch, and Saturn really sucked here, blowing spots left and right. In other words, Vince Russo needs to go. Now. 2003/06/18 AMW vs XXX (Skipper & Daniels) 2003/06/18 Jeff Jarrett & Sting vs AJ Styles & Sean Waltman

This, I couldn't agree more. I hate the Twitter "culture".

I never listened to any of these podcasts myself. No interaction or discussion possible. Of I listen to a podcast, I want Cornette, Sullivan or Austin to tell me some actual stories. Plus, the fact you couldn't discuss Flair in the infamous "Podcast Thread" if you had not spent the three hours listening to it, even if you were reacting to some written statements made about Flair was a huge turn off for me. How long did it take before the board went down. Wasn't some hacking involved too by a loony member, or did I just mix this with something completely different ? Seems so long ago, almost like another life (and really, it was, on more personal levels).

How many people who voted in this poll are either American (by this I mean North-American) and/or from english speaking countries and/or from europe where US mainstream wrestling has basically been pro-wrestling for the last 30 years ?

Of course not. Parv is an orthodox. BTW, the fact he didn't post his reaction to the GWE result over here is telling that pro-wrestling boards are a thing of the past. We're all relics. Today is all about podcast's and Twitterss and shit.

I love when old-timers randomly bring Mike Oles into the debates, knowingly that about 10% of us at best will know or remember about him. Should I drop the infamous "pro-wrestling as figure-skating" stuff now ? And you're right about Andre. He was really good when he was younger to the early 80's, but yeah, I just shouldn't have ranked him, even at #99. Raven is much better.

Of course, as I've used the term myself in that sense.

That Grim is a very patient man. Thanks for the hard work !