El-P

Interesting. The idea I have of early ROH is two bland guys in MMA shorts and kickpads doing AJ cosplay for 45 minutes while the crowd is doing dual chants. Maybe I'm completely off on this, and in this case well, one of these days, why not. I didn't know TNA audience were responsible for "this is awesome" chants. Damn them then.

Bingo.

Of course it did. If Bryan had landed around the top 20, I would have say no. But really, beating Kawada, Kobashi, Liger, three of the biggest sacred cows of the last 20 years. Yeah, for sure. I actually plan on diving into Daniel Bryan's whole career at some point. Maybe he's that great. Maybe not.

It shouldn't be, he's had a long and awesome career. Recency bias + US mainstream bias (and before people get worked up, I of all people am guilty of it with Bryan, so I speak for *myself* first). I absolutely don't believe all the people voting for Bryan had scrutinized his ROH career. I for one sure didn't do it, as ROH is a black hole that I'm not I ever want to get into. Too afraid I might just blast the whole company (for the record, I *hated* everything about Samoa Joe vs Kobashi, to give you an idea). Maybe one day. When I'm done with TNA.

I totally buy Funk's case, at least half of it, being made in Japan. Hansen is obviously a Japan candidate. Still, I agree with you, obviously, the only japanese guys left there are total sacred cows. They weren't going anywhere.

I'm very surprised about Misawa being above Kawada and Kobashi, for reasons I'll explain later. Since many people love Kobashi's NOH work, I really expected him to make the top 5. Rey beating both of them simply confirms, again, what I've been saying all along. I had Rey at #18 because, as much as I don't care for 00's WWE style and that damn 619, there was no denying Rey Jr. level of work over the last 20 years.

Hey, Memphis people, do you know that Raven once said in an interview that Lawler was the greatest ever ? You should rejoice, you and Raven are all and the same. Nice run by Lawler.

Great point.

Makes sense to me. I also agree I would have liked more talk about candidates that were like roses in bloom and others that had been sent to the pits of hell in recent years.

Ok, if by scrutiny you mean "the most talked about", ok. Then, let's take this issue in reverse. And if the fact he was the most talked about, the one who got the most scrutiny after all, in the end was the reason why he'll end up at #1 ? Simply because people talked about Flair more than any other candidates. In comparison, even Jerry Lawler got only four pages of discussion, which is extremely low for a guy a number of people around here consider a legit #1 contender. Tatsumi Fujinami got a whole five of them. Stan Hansen and Jumbo Tsuruta got respectively 10 and 11. Buddy Rose, another #1 contender for some people, got only 3. Flair got 16 pages of discussion plus an endless serie of podcasts thread. Don't you think this actually helped Flair more than anything ? Not that he just passed the test of scrutiny, but because Flair is the #1 in the american wrestling mythology and people just have this in mind. Plus he's the easiest one to watch. So people talk a lot about him. He's the most accessible great wrestler this side of Rey, whose been on TV for almost 20 years now (and Rey only got 7 pages). I do think the "level of scrutiny" aka "people talking a lot more about him than anyone else" actually helped Flair a lot. Because, of course he's a great wrestler, no question about that. But he's the great wrestler that has been talked about the most. And in the end, I think it weighted quite a bit. Draw your own conclusions. I do understand why some Buddy Rose guys were disapointed by people "not watching the footage" (yours truly included, my bad) while endless debates about freaking Ric Flair were going on and on and on. So yeah, maybe he was the most scrutinized. But at the end of the day, I do think it probably helped his case more than anything else, not because he passed through the "wrong" criticism thrown at him, but because it made a lot of noise around the official #1 wrestler of all time in the established canon. Which helped him, while new darlings weren't talked as much (Lawler, Rose, Fujinami, Bockwinckle) and old japanese sacred cows were seen as "boring picks" (Misawa, 7 pages, Kobashi, 8 pages, Kawada, 7 pages, Akiyama, 5 pages). Because talking about Ric Flair never gets old it seems. Well, it does for some (me included), but for the vast majority, it doesn't. So, I guess it was his turn.

Not at all. My Top 10 is half-full of boring consensus picks (and some relic consensus pick from 15 years ago, so I'm really not the one to point a finger to in term of wanting something fresh and different at all cost). But to me Flair is both overrated and a boring old consensus pick. So, since Jumbo, Hansen and Funk (my top 3 and who I objectively believe are the three best pro-wrestler ever) won't win, might as well be someone new rather than good old Ric Flair. As far as level of scrutiny, are you totally sure about that ? What I saw most a whole lot of people going insane in the Flair praise side of it, trying of find excuse to each of his obvious shortcomings and doing a hundred podcasts to prove once and for all that there wasn't any other choice possible, all hail Ric Flair and woooo. You don't think Tenryu has been scrutinized ? That Lawler has been scrutinized ? That Kawada and Misawa and Hansen and Kobashi have been scrutinized for years ? That people have been talking about Rey-Rey for ever now ? Come on. It seems like another "but poor Ric Flair is getting too much unfair criticism". Honestly, if I wanted to pick apart what I don't care for in Flair anymore, I could have done it, but it was too boring and too frustrating to go against the tide. I tried my best to make a case for Takada...

Very interesting post. Would New Japan be considered more "foreign" at heart than All Japan, whose house style originally steamed from the NWA style of the Funks ? By that I refer to the more shoot-stylish aspect of it through Inoki's and UWF's heritage and also the Mexican influence on the whole juniors through Tiger Mask then Liger ? The fact Rey is actually american probably plays a part. The fact he hasn't worked full-time for a lucha promotion since he left AAA in the mid-90's also plays a part. The fact that he became a star in WCW then WWE clearly makes him not-a-luchador.

It's not that I'm anti-Flair, I had him at #20, he remains one of my all-time favourites, but I don't think he's the greatest wrestler ever. And more than anything, the fact that a progressive thinking board, sometimes to absurd degrees, in 2016, goes back to the old gospel of the 80's, to the most boring candidates of all after having Jumbo being called a boring candidate, is kinda disapointing to me. Like I said, although I wouldn't agree at all, Lawler #1 would be a more exciting result honestly. Anyone would be. I've said it pretty early in the countdown, apart from a few über-pimped names, this is mostly a return to the US mainstream and a pretty conservative list. (and yes, a bunch of AJ sacred cows are still in the top 10, but there's no way these names were gonna just disappear)

Anyone but Flair #1 would be nice.

I wouldn't agree, but I think people are so much more used to grumpy Tenryu that the younger version doesn't connect the same. To me it's former sumo wrestler syndrome, he's more naturally stoic because of this. But since I fucking love former sumo wrestlers, it's not an issue for me.

I only have 5 extremely boring classic picks in my top 5. But I don't have the ultimate boring choice though. Honestly, all things considered, I do think this Top 10 is pretty damn representative of today, even though I don't agree with some of it. Lawler not making it would have been a disapointment of sorts even for me after years of heavy heavy praise. The one I'm actually surprised that he still made it was Misawa. I thought Tenryu would have replaced him honestly. Bryan makes N°10. Kobashi makes the top 5 because lots of people love his NOAH stuff. Flair wins (and really, all of this talk for Flair stealing the victory at the end ?).

Lawler might as well win the whole thing now. I doubt Hansen can. (Knowing who had the most of the top 10 in their actual top 10 would be interesting…)

Why ? Jumbo not making the top 10 kinda sucks. I didn't expect that although I should have. I didn't comment on Bret dropping. Well, he was my #14. Above Flair. I'd like my world champ to look smart.

I had Eddie at #44. His WCW stuff was more irregular than what I remembered, whith great stuff but also pretty passable stuff (especially in 99 after he came back from injury). His ECW legendary series with Malenko is some of the more souless overrated stuff of the 90's and the infamous Eddielenko sequence has become the model for stupid sequences with people kicking out of their own pin attempts. His WWE stint had some great stuff, and some not so great stuff. His carry job of JBL is nothing short of a miracle though, to the point some people still believe JBL had anything to do with the fact this match was terrific. So yeah, not as much of a fan as I was before.

No. Bret will be.

Shouldn't make the top 10 because he just wasn't that good. Yeah, this. My vote for Lawler is pretty low too (in the "not that great but I still like him and want to represent him" category).

He worked New Japan and had a bad match with Tatsumi Fujinami.

Oh yeah, there's absolutely no Memphis loyalty, not at all. When only Lawler and Dundee make the top 100, there isn't. It's not like there were any other Top 100 worthy candidates over there. Wait, yes, Eaton and Dutch Mantell, both of whom I voted for.

I'm just insane, is what I am. But thanks ! And fuck depression ! Haven't seen that grumpy face in a while. (still following sumo ? No spoiler if you do, I'm always a basho late !) PPV 46 This is getting so bad it’s actually getting funny too. One good point, there was actually some changes of pace, with what I’d call two competitive squashes, XXX vs SAT (who still suck like it shouldn’t be allowed to) and D-Lo Brown & AJ Styles vs CM Punk & Jason Cross. This is refreshing to not have a hundred nearfalls in every match, it gives a sense of hierarchy. Anyway, after their match, D-Lo & AJ Styles decide to split up amically to pursue their dream of being the NWA champ. Nicely done. Oh, D-Lo said that Jeff Jarrett was « The Game in this dressing room » which got "Triple J !" chants. The worst is that it’s actually true on every level, neither of them would be where they are if not for nepotism and politics. One good match as part of the Alliance Asylum tournament (hey we have brackets now so we can figure out that disaster), Chris Harris tagging with Chris Sabin (as part of the AMW split tease) against Justin Credible & Jerry Lynn. Really good match actually, with Lynn working most of it as face in peril and Harris & Sabin looking even better than AMW usually do. Lynn kinda screws up the timing of the hot tag though, so the ending felt a little rushed and out of nowhere, but the body of the match was super solid. Next feud for Lynn is Justin Credible, as he got pinned like an idiot after asking for Lynn to step out and let him finish the match. Some ECW rehash that I don’t mind at all, as Credible as looked fine thus far. Then, so many idiotic stuff. The return of BJ James tagging with Konnan. I guess redneck Brian Armstrong is a minority. Teaming with Konnan makes sense though, as they both are specialists of annoying pre-match catchphrase that never change. So they beat up Sonny Siaki, as his partner in the tournament Sandman fucks up him by refusing to tag in. I refuse to even watch Slash vs New Jack. This Hard Ten concept is one of the most stupid in wrestling history. JUST BASH THE GUY TEN TIMES IN A ROW ! So, the Masked luchador is actually… Trinity. Oh yeah, that’s believable... So she has a godawful match with Kid Kash, who got beat up by another porn-actress looking girl backstage. Grotesque blown spots where Trinity comes close to breaking her neck, tedious heat because everyone thought this feud had been settled weeks ago already. And Kid Kash wins in the end. Fuck me. Brilliant. So the woman abuser gets the last laugh. More woman abuse after a ridiculously fun catfight between Desire and Tracy, who’s not afraid to take stupid hard bumps and show tons of ass. I mean, in both sense. I said fun, because they really beat the shit out of each other and Tracy looks so damn slutty that it makes for a fun Z-movie moment until David Young spikes her and takes Desire away. The idea is that Young is in love with Desire here. Oh, and of course, Young & Tracy are tag team partner in that stupid tournament, because things just aren't contrived enough. Erik Watts is making out with Goldilocks. Why is this guy being paid for, really ? And in the main event, Gilberti has a bad match with Raven, who himself looks perfectly fine, but Disco plain sucks here, killing what was an okay match by turning into the worst Kurt Angle ever. That ankle lock deal is such a terrible idea, damn you Angle for making it so popular. Raven’s selling is very good. But then run-ins (Julio, Alexis, Harris Boys) and more run-ins (Siaki, Sandman) until the return of… oh for fuck’s sake… Russo is back to screw Raven, who at this point his bordering on tweener-babyface because he’s so much cooler and better on the mic than Jarrett, as showed by the first promo segment at the begining of the show. Jarrett is acting a bit more heelish, which he should, but still, having him playing touring NWA champ in Australia on an WWA PPV just doesn’t cut it. So I guess they try to rebuild Raven by saying he’s been screwed (well, kind of, but not really either. BTW, where the fuck is Sabu ?). Well, he’s the only credible main eventer along with Styles. Jarrett fumbling over his words on promos is just sad to see when he tries to act cool and shit. The Kid Kash heel turn has already been wasted and the AMW split tease is something nothing wants to see. 2003/05/28 Chris Sabin & Chris Harris vs Jerry Lynn & Justin Credible

Oh yeah, there's absolutely no Memphis loyalty, not at all.