El-P

Hum... what ? Seriously, the R&R Express aren't in already ? What a complete joke this entire thing is.

There's also the fact that old guys knew how to work the ropes. They knew how to tease eliminations, get wrapped up in the ropes, lose balance, work quasi-comedy spots. By the late 90's it was beginning to be a lost art. New guys just sucked at working the Rumble, and everything became overscripted.

If there's one thing that I think sums up Russo's fundamental incompetence, it's that he made the Royal Rumble suck. The Rumble is pretty much the most idiot-proof gimmick imaginable. Booking one is like Mr. Burns telling Darryl Strawberry to hit a home run. It isn't always great, but you have to go out of your way to make it actively shitty. Yet Russo managed to do it. Royal Rumble 1999 is what killed the WWF fan in me. I was raised on WWF. I discovered westling with WWF in the late 80's. The Royal Rumble was always the most exciting event of my mark days. Russo killed it. After Royal Rumble 1999, I was done with being a WWF fan, for ever. I remember it like it was yesterday. All of a sudden, that was it, I was done with something I followed religiously for 10 years. Sad day.

Word.

That joke never gets old with me.

Us probably. It's hard to feel any sympathy for this guy at this point.

There, I remember his name : WADA KYOHEI !!!!

Great referees : Tommy Ran Daichi Murayama Go Ito Nick Patrick Shitty referees : every ECW referee ever Also, I can't stand Earl Ebner. Can't stand his "epic two counts". Way overrated because he was the token big match referee in WWF for years.

I just watched it. It was godawful. Sunny looks good though.

Hasn't Kevin Nash done the exact same thing with Carl Oulette last year to promote some indy match, bringing up some shoot confrontation they had in WWF in 95 ? Dave reported on WOL that it was just horrible, basically Nash beating up Ricky, then the two of them cutting promos, Ricky going to shake Nash's hand only to have Nash powerbomb him and leave, Ricky winning by countout. All of this booked by Nash. TNA needs to get him back and give him a writing job, he'd be right at home.

And I agree it's way easy to say in hindsight, "Oh, Bret would/could never have taken the belt on Nitro." The MNW was dirty, with the hatred Bret had for Michaels, and the way Vince handled things (basically letting Michaels do all he wanted), who knows what might have happened. Again, not excusing Vince, but there's no way he's 100% responsible.

Vince didn't put a gun to Bret's head and told him to fuck off and negociate with WCW. Once Vince didn't want/think he could honor Bret's contract, they got to terms with each other so that Bret could get a fat contract with the concurrence who, at the time, was kicking WWF's ass. Its funny you picture Vince "fucking" Bret on his contract when in the reality, it's not exactly wat happened. Bret went to get the biggest money deal he ever had in his career instead of the 20 year deal. Seems ok to me. Bret agreed. He could have refused and sue Vince for breach of contract. Vince didn't "shit" on Bret's deal. Bret was ok to go to WCW and get a fat paycheck instead.

Agreed. Shitty character, terrible music theme, shitty matches. For a while, Taker was just godawful. And yeah, I don't think it's fair to use TNA as a proof Angle is not a draw. No one can draw in TNA. Cena would probably be the only active guy who could make a difference. Angle never really was in position to draw in WWE. And he was never *The Man*.

Agreed. Shitty character, terrible music theme, shitty matches. For a while, Taker was just godawful. And it didn't made a lick of sense coming from all the dead man incarnations. Taker & Kane as the face tag team in 2001 was just awful.

As soon as as saw the title of the thread, I knew Jerry Lawler would be pimped. Which is saying a lot about how sad wrestling truly is in 2011.

Yes. All of us. Vince McMahon never promoted wrestling. He's in the entertainment business.

WCW 2000.

Taker also had his group at one time. Taker, Yoko, Fatu, and a few other names I don't remember. That could have had a huge effect on the company for sure. Just incredible leverage.

I don't know. Taker put Shawn over on the previous PPV. He put Shawn over at RR again (not clean each time, I realize Kane was involved, but still). Bret's "I'll put him over, just not on the PPV in Canada because it's my audience" is just a stupid argument. My take on it is that Bret should have been above that petty crap. I'm not defending Vince nor think it was fair nor that Bret had it coming or anything, I'm just saying no one was right here, and that it was just a clusterfuck. Yes, Vince was responsible for fucking around with Bret's contract. Yes, Shawn was a gigantic asshole who deserved noting less but taking a beating. And yes, Bret was a mark for not wanting to simply drop the belt at the PPV. I'm amazed we can still debate about Montreal 14 years later though. Clearly one of the most important happening in modern wrestling history. I really didn't picture myself talking, much less arguing about it 14 years later when it happened.

No one said it was fair. But it all comes down to one thing : Bret not wanting to do a job when he was asked to do it. It's as simple as that. If Bret had said "Fuck it, I'm not a stupid asshole mark like you, I'm gonna put you over because unlike you whiny ass I'm a pro.", nothing would have happened. The rest is irrevelant. Tons of workers would have done the job regardless of the "creative control" bullshit, because this is their job. Bret refusing to do it puts him right at Shawn's or Hogan's level on that matter. And I really like Bret, and as noted I really dislike Vince. Really, I agree with Cornette's opinion which is the entire thing was a bunch of bullshit from all parts involved. Everybody was wrong.

Ok, thanks. I haven't seen much WCW TV from 92, only PPV's and Clashes. They were really hot when they came back in 96, but I guess after 3 years away they were fresh again, plus at this point they were looked at as big name stars.

Finally seriously watching some UWF, I'm realizing how awesome Kazuo Yamazaki already was early in his career. This guy would probably get really close to the top 10 for me.

Exactly. For years I thought Bret was right, but I don't think that way aynymore. Was that a complete dick move from Vince ? Of course it was. Was Shawn a complete asshole ? Of course he was. Was Bret in his rights to refuse to do the job ? Yes he was. But being in your rights doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. Bret could have easily prevent this, because in the end, losing the belt didn't mean jack shit in the real world. I know Bret had the contractual rights to refuse to do he job. I'm just saying his attitude was just pueril in the end. When you deal with an asshole like Shawn you have two way to respond : either you're acting like an asshole yourself, or you act like you're above the bullshit and like a complete gentleman. Bret not wanting to drop the belt to Shawn in Canada was stupid and markish, there's no other way around. Bret should have shown how much of a real class act he was, drop the belt in Canada and leave, washing his hands of Vince having to deal with Shawn and Trip. Really, replace Bret with Hogan, and all of a sudden we would get "Oh, but Hogan was a an asshole, he shouldn't have creative control anyway, that's bad for the company." And Dylan, your analogy is really embarrassing.

Vince not honoring Bret 's contract was irrelevant by the time of the screwjob. Bret was going to WCW to make shitloads of money, problem solved. Bret should have dropped the belt, that's all there is to it. That's his job, he's a fucking pro-wrestler. The "creative control" bullshit is as ridiculous as anything Hogan ever did in WCW. He had zilch to lose, he was just a mark for his own character.

Hearing the reports, I'm just glad I'm not a WWE fan. HHH was getting on my nerves as soon as 2000. He had vastly overstayed his welcome by the mid-00's. It's 2011 and WWE is the HHH show. It's just sad.