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WON 2010


Dan
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(Edit: I meant to put WON HOF 2010 in the title..)

 

 

Yohe posted the ballot on WC:

 

I FOLLOWED THE HISTORICAL PERFORMERS ERA

CANDIDATES

The Assassins (Tom Renesto & Jody Hamilton)

Red Bastien

Cowboy Bob Ellis

Yukon Eric

Hans Schmidt

Kinji Shibuya

Wilbur Snyder

John Tolos

Enrique Torres

Kurt & Karl Von Brauner w/Gentleman Saul Weingeroff

Tim "Mr. Wrestling" Woods

Bearcat Wright

 

I FOLLOWED THE MODERN PERFORMERS ERA

CANDIDATES

Gene & Ole Anderson

Carlos Colon

Edge

Owen Hart

Curt Hennig

Chris Jericho

Ivan Koloff

Fabulous Moolah

Pedro Morales

Dick Murdoch

Rey Mysterio

Rock & Roll Express

Sabu

Sgt. Slaughter

Jimmy Snuka

Sting

Mr. Wrestling II (Johnny Walker)

 

I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN JAPAN

CANDIDATES

George Gordienko

Gran Hamada

Volk Han

Seiji Sakaguchi

Kensuke Sasaki

Kiyoshi Tamura

Steve Williams

 

I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN MEXICO

CANDIDATES

Perro Aguayo Jr.

Atlantis

Cibernetico

Cien Caras

Karloff Lagarde

Blue Panther

L.A. Park

Huracan Ramirez

Vampiro

Villano III

Dr. Wagner Jr.

Dr. Wagner Sr.

 

I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN EUROPE

CANDIDATES

Big Daddy

Henri DeGlane

Giant Haystacks

Horst Hoffman

Mick McManus

Kendo Nagasaki

Jackie Pallo

Rollerball Mark Rocco

Johnny Saint

 

NON-WRESTLERS (these picks do not count against the ten wrestler maximum)

Lou Albano

Bill Apter

Jim Crockett Jr.

Gary Hart

Jerry Jarrett

Gorilla Monsoon

Dr. Alfonso Morales

Don Owen

Jesse Ventura

Kent Walton

 

 

Also a new guideline on the ballot:

 

The basic criteria for the Hall of Fame is a combination of drawing power, being a great in-ring performer as well as having historical significance in a positive manner.

I.E., I have to put Big Daddy on the ballot, but don't vote for him. :lol:

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I'd think if Big Daddy gets overlooked again, Dave will never be able to go to those English UFC shows without being harassed.

 

Is it just a matter of him not "getting" British wrestling or does he not understand how a big fat guy could be his country's version of Hulk Hogan?

 

 

Also, these would be my picks:

 

 

1. The Assassins (do tag teams count as one pick?)

2. Carlos Colon

3. Rock n Roll Express

4. Sgt. Slaughter (gets overlooked, but there's a lot of footage of his peak available now)

5. Sting (he was WCW for a long time, the fact that WCW ended the way it did probably hurts him)

6. Steve Williams

7. Perro Aguyao Jr.

8. Cien Caras

9. Big Daddy

10. Johnny Saint

 

 

Non wrestlers:

 

1. Bill Apter (his magazines did more to promote wrestling than some promoters did)

2. Gorilla Monsoon (Dave seems to still be sour on him, but he seems to have left a huge impact on everyone he worked with)

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So after the controversy over the regional groupings this year, the ballot clearly groups them and encourages the voter to vote for regions he's followed. The new criteria is really weird and I can't help but feel like Dan's on the right track.

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I feel like the two most similar wrestlers on the ballot this year are Jericho and Sting. Both have had nearly a decade of being near the top so long that it kind of gives the illusion that they were on top the entire time, both had short championship reigns that were considered disappointing at the time, both have a few impressive drawing numbers to their credit when paired with established draws, both are probably near the same level in the ring career versus career. I don't know where I stand on them just yet, but I feel like if one goes in, they both have to go in. If one stays out, they both have to stay out.

 

I know on the surface it seems like Sting had more years on top than Jericho, but take a look:

 

1988 vs 1999 - Both were very over new midcarders who flirted with the upper card, Sting far more so than Jericho.

1989 vs 2000 - Both were paired with a top guy in tag teams for much of the year and had good years. Both were in about the same position on the card, with the difference being that Sting was clearly being groomed for the top spot and no one really knew what they had planned for Jericho.

1990 vs 2001 - Both finally got their chance on top. Sting's run bombed, which I blame on the Black Scorpion angle more than Sting himself. Jericho was being set up to fail, but the initial work leading to the heel turn and the early part of the Rock program was strong.

1991 vs 2002 - Both stayed near the top of the card, but were ultimately removed from the top position. Jericho did more after dropping back to his old spot than Sting did.

1992 vs 2003 - Sting had the bigger year here and was the top babyface most of the time, but I would argue Jericho's importance to the company was strong in this year, as he was getting more TV time than anyone due to the Highlight Reel, was a positive ratings draw (which was unusual at that point for someone with so much TV time), and had some big feuds.

1993 vs 2004 - Sting was part of some big main events at the beginning of the year, but did nothing most of the year and everything in WCW was bad and not drawing. Jericho had some midcard feuds that really clicked and was the bottom of the pecking order babyface in main event tags on RAW more than anything else.

1995 vs 2004 - Sting dropped far down the card behind Hogan and Savage, while Jericho dropped far down the card below Benoit and Edge. Jericho had the better year because the Christian feud clicked and the tags and six-mans against Evolution on Raw were better than most of Sting's week-to-week stuff.

1996 vs 2005 - Both went on hiatus. Sting had the better storyline leading to his, Jericho had the better matches on the way out the door, but had a pretty rough patch earlier in the year.

1997 vs 2006 - Both were inactive. (Sting had two matches at the tail end of December which were kind of a big deal. Starrcade set records for WCW at the time, which is honestly the biggest positive Sting has.)

1998 vs 2007 - With Jericho out most of the year, Sting obviously has the advantage, but this was a disappointing year for him, as he was set up for something huge and instead just slowly slid down the card.

1999 vs 2008 - Jericho was the top heel in the promotion for the bulk of the year and had a successful feud with Michaels both in the ring and in PPV. Sting's comeback produced some fun matches.

2000 vs 2009 - Sting had a bad year in a bad company. Jericho had another great year with good feuds with retired wrestlers and Rey Misterio.

 

Rey Misterio is the shoe-in candidate that just isn't getting in with overwhelming numbers for some reason.

 

I would also vote in Jerry Jarrett for decades of successfully promoting wrestling.

 

Jim Crockett is an interesting case, as he had some successful years, but I tend to think they drew in 1986 because of the booking. If anything, they weren't able to sustain the momentum they had because Crockett wasn't great at promoting the NWA (and Dusty's booking taking a downturn didn't hurt things either).

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I'm not trying to be contrarian when I say I don't get why everyone thinks Rey is a shoo-in. He did help usher in the era of crusierweight style wrestling in ECW, but he was never really a top star in WCW (most people still remember him being lawn darted by Kevin Nash more than anything else), and his time on top in WWE was more or less him taking Eddie's place than anything else. He's been a draw among Hispanic viewers, but is that HOF worthy? I guess you could say he sells a lot of merch to kids, but so does John Cena and I could just imagine the flip outs if people used that as justification for Cena in the HOF.

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Well, I think John Cena is a HOF shoo-in also. He's just not old enough to be eligible yet, but he deserves to go in the first year he is eligible.

 

Rey has a strong enough case on work to get in. Anything more than that certainly adds to his case, but his list of great matches over nearly 20 years in a wide variety of settings alone is the reason he should be in the HOF.

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He was a star in WCW and WWE pretty much to the limit of what politics would allow. Sells merchandise, consistently over across the globe and in every promotion, consistently good worker, and I'd say he has historical significance considering the way he MADE WCW's cruiser division. He's a ratings draw as much as anyone in WWE. It really seems obvious to me. I don't see, say, Jericho matching up with Rey.

 

It would probably be easier for him to get in if he'd spent a couple years dominating Mexico.

 

The WON HOF is endlessly frustrating.

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There's also the arguments about him changing the lucha libre style that I've read Kevin Cook make before that I'm not informed enough to let be made again, but the way he always described it was that Rey's time in Mexico alone qualified him for the HOF. I see a guy who has had great matches everywhere. If he has history as an international draw, even better.

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The only argument against Cena getting in on first ballot would be the old "he's still active and I won't vote for guys still in their prime" arguments that I've seen Yohe and others use.

 

In this era where the WWE is the "draw" and not any particular talent, the biggest way to gauge who is influencing the company and who is bringing in fans is to look at demographic trends and merch sales. Cena and Rey are probably 1 and 1a in terms of opening up new avenues of viewership and paving the way to a more "kid friendly" product. They are also probably 1 and 1a when it comes to merch sales. Both guys have had great runs in the ring, with Rey probably be the best in ring talent for the entire decade of the 00's and Cena having one of the more memorable "ace" runs in the last twenty years with his year plus long title reign a couple of years back. Both are hugely important from the perspective of acceptance with entertainment mainstream (Cena) and the recent strategy of relying heavily on the international market (Rey). Neither guy is Hogan, but neither guy is Dynamite Kid or Kurt Angle either. To me they are obvious - albeit not first tier - candidates.

 

That Jericho v. Sting comparison is interesting though I think Sting's year of not appearing int he ring is sort of slighted there since he appeared on multiple Nitros and the whole focus of many of the top rated and drawing shows of the year was "when will Sting show up?" Also I think Sting was a better in ring performer both career v. career and peak v. peak than Jericho. Largely irrelevant though because Jericho will go in as Dave actively campaigns for him every year.

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I'm not trying to be contrarian when I say I don't get why everyone thinks Rey is a shoo-in. He did help usher in the era of crusierweight style wrestling in ECW, but he was never really a top star in WCW (most people still remember him being lawn darted by Kevin Nash more than anything else), and his time on top in WWE was more or less him taking Eddie's place than anything else. He's been a draw among Hispanic viewers, but is that HOF worthy? I guess you could say he sells a lot of merch to kids, but so does John Cena and I could just imagine the flip outs if people used that as justification for Cena in the HOF.

He's one of the few guys in modern WWE that can be pointed to as a ratings and attendance draw. He sells a bunch of merch. WWE has taken over Mexico with him as the biggest star. They've done surprisingly well in small Southwestern towns with him on top. Has been in and out of the main event for four years. When you consider that some guys just get in based on work, Rey seems easy. Cena would be an easy HOF inductee even if he retired tomorrow.

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I'm not doubting Rey didn't have good to great matches, I just thought there was more to it than that in terms of being considered HOF worthy. Doesn't it go by if the person was the top draw or was considered the best worker in the company they were in? I don't think you could ever say that about Rey in any company he was in.

 

Or is this more of a case of someone Dave wants in so the usual excuses when excluding someone don't apply?

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I'm not doubting Rey didn't have good to great matches, I just thought there was more to it than that in terms of being considered HOF worthy. Doesn't it go by if the person was the top draw or was considered the best worker in the company they were in? I don't think you could ever say that about Rey in any company he was in.

 

Or is this more of a case of someone Dave wants in so the usual excuses when excluding someone don't apply?

Um. There are several posts above yours where multiple people pointed to arguments for Rey where in ring work was one piece of a much broader picture.

 

Rey has been considered one of the top draws, if not the top draw, in what is easily the biggest wrestling company in the World. He's opened up Mexico to them and drastically expanded their international markets, while attracting a legion of Hispanic fans in the States - a demographic that is clearly expanding at a rapid rate. He sells shitloads of merch at a high price point which in this day and age is just as impressive as selling tickets to rednecks like myself was twenty-plus years ago. He's an established ratings and house show draw. He's been influential in a variety of ways. et, et, et

 

I also think Rey has pretty easily been the best wrestler in the WWE the last two years, to the point where I can't even see an argument for anyone else. And that's to say nothing of his 06 run where the only person in the company who might have been better was Finlay and he's much less of a WON HoF favorite than Rey is (incidentally I think Meltzer is a much bigger homer for Jericho than Rey, even though I think Jericho isn't nearly as strong a candidate).

 

I'd say Rey is pretty easily the best WWE wrestler of the 00's - at minimum. I'd also say he was the best in the World for that period but I could see an argument for Danielson, though I'm not sure anyone else has a case.

 

I've not seen much of his AAA run so I won't comment much on that, but he was clearly one of the best two or three guys in ECW during his cup of coffee there and during his entire tenure in WCW he was no worse than the fourth or fifth best guy in the company - in 96 (where I think a lot of his work is overrated actually) I doubt there was anyone in WCW better than him and that was a roster with Benoit, Eddy, Psicosis, Juvy, Malenko, et.

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As far as the draw thing, didn't Smackdown's ratings stay basically the same after Rey got moved to Raw?

 

Also, again, I'm not saying Rey isn't a great worker. I am saying we can all come up with dozens of guys who were great workers yet are not considered HOF worthy.

 

There's also the matter of him being probably the worst booked champion WWE has had since Jericho was picking up dog poop for Steph.

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Doesn't it go by if the person was the top draw or was considered the best worker in the company they were in?

Not really. If a company had multiple guys who were strong draws/workers/positive influences, they get consideration, too. And there have definitely been points in the past decade where you could argue Rey was the strongest draw and definitely the strongest worker in WWE.

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It's time for the 2010 election for the Wrestling Observer Newsletter Hall of Fame. This ballot is being sent out to major wrestling stars, past and present, major management figures in the industry, writers and historians.

 

If you are getting this, you are being asked for your opinion on who should be inducted into this year's Hall of Fame class. The basic criteria for the Hall of Fame is a combination of drawing power, being a great in-ring performer as well as having historical significance in a positive manner. A candidate should have something to offer in all three categories, or be someone so strong in one or two of the categories that they deserve inclusion.

 

The names listed below are those under consideration for this year's ballot. To be eligible, a performer must have either reached his 35th birthday and completed ten years since their debut as a full-time performer, or someone who has been a full-time pro wrestler for at least 15 years.

 

Longevity should be a prime consideration rather than a hot two or three year run, unless someone is so significantly important as a trend-setter in the business, or valuable to the industry, that they should be included. However, just longevity, without being either a long-term main eventer, a top draw and/or a top caliber worker should be seem as relatively meaningless.

 

The election is broken down into categories. You should check each category for wrestlers that you feel you are familiar enough with based on geography that you've traveled or time you've followed pro wrestling. You do not have to vote for a wrestler in every category that you've checked. The maximum number of wrestlers you can vote for from all categories combined is ten. You can pick as few as zero if you don't believe anyone on the list deserves inclusion.

 

There is a separate category for non-wrestlers. This is for wrestling executives, managers and announcers. You can vote for them or not, but those choices are not included against the ten wrestler maximum.

 

All responses are confidential. There is nothing to worry about politically about any involvement in this process. Your selections will not be revealed unless you choose to do so yourself.

 

Anyone who receives mention on 60% of the ballot from their geographical region and time frame (broken down as United States & Canada modern; United States & Canada historical; Mexico; Japan; or Europe) will be added to the Hall of Fame this year. If you are unfamiliar with any of the candidates due to geography of having never seen them, that is fine. Ballots are sent to many people all over the world and in different wrestling cultures so that everyone has as fair a shot as possible.

 

The breakdown for modern and historical is 30 years, so if the last year the wrestler was a headline performer, or was a key figure in the industry was prior to 1980, they would be in the historical class.

 

All performers who receive mention on 10% to 59.9% of the ballots from their geographical region, or era, will remain on the ballot for consideration next year. All those who receive less than 10% of the vote will be dropped from next year's ballot. They can return in two years based on if there is significant feedback from voters who say they will vote for them. This is mostly for wrestlers who are still active who may improve their career legacy, but can be for other wrestlers if voters believe they should be put on or returned to the ballot.

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Guest Slickster

They can comment but it doesn't affect anything as far as I know.

Thanks.

 

If there are comments, are they included in the HOF issue when talking about that particular person? Or does Dave do an issue in effect saying "These guys are in; here's a short bio of their careers?"

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They can comment but it doesn't affect anything as far as I know.

Thanks.

 

If there are comments, are they included in the HOF issue when talking about that particular person? Or does Dave do an issue in effect saying "These guys are in; here's a short bio of their careers?"

 

 

He does a capsule of the guys that make it, sometimes he gets a little more involved if they were from a long ago era or that guy who was basically the El Santo of Argentina.

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