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Edge: King of the ****+ main event??


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From this week's Observer:

 

The highest percentage of main events being four-star matches was not Flair or Michaels, although they had a high percentage. The highest percentage was Edge (10 of 18, 56%)

Expect that talking point to be rolled out come HOF time this summer. "Edge had the highest percentage of ****+ matches of any other main eventer!"

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Seriously, Edge is a terrible wrestler. Usually, in cases like Michaels or Angle or whoever, you can at least see where Dave is coming from because there are things those guys do well. But Edge? Overuses a spear that doesn't even look that good, has the types of facial expressions that are so exaggerated that they are embarrassing around non-fans, not really good at selling a beatdown ... that doesn't even get into his promos. Edge is probably the very worst promo guy who is considered good.

 

He's had a few good matches against the right people -- but even then, it's just been a few.

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Loss: might want to break off the Big Show Main Event ****+ stuff into it's own thread. There's a hell of a lot more than can be done with this. Kenta Kobashi is wondering why he's getting screwed over. ;)

 

And I know... it's a WCW/WWF List. Doesn't mean that more can be done with it. Including the issue of what truly is/are the main event(s) on shows.

 

John

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Loss: might want to break off the Big Show Main Event ****+ stuff into it's own thread. There's a hell of a lot more than can be done with this. Kenta Kobashi is wondering why he's getting screwed over. ;)

 

And I know... it's a WCW/WWF List. Doesn't mean that more can be done with it. Including the issue of what truly is/are the main event(s) on shows.

 

John

Good call. This would make for a good discussion. My first question on reading the comment above was, "What in the world matches was he in, and which of those were primarily because of a super partner?" Thinking, for example, of the Smackdown 6 era. . .

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Edge is a terrible wrestler at pretty much every level, he's was useful to fall from high places and make jokes early in his career. It's mind-blowing that no one ever told him that using that spear wasn't a good idea. Looks fake as shit, even Tenry's enzuigiri look better (I'm thinking about a move that has been used forever and accepted despite looking bad).

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At the risk of being trolled, that says a lot about Dave's tastes. I don't even think most fans of Edge would regard him as a consistent participant in "four star" matches. At least not more so than EVERY OTHER WRESTLER.

I hope this isnt a shot at me, just saying. At least you give a reason here hence I dont have much of a problem. There is a difference between this and saying categorically someone isnt knowledge, something you havent retracted by the way. Im amazed and saddened that I have to point this out again.

 

Six of the matches are from three bouts during 2008 and 2009 if that narrows it down. Those at least shouldnt be hard to track down in the archives, might do it myself.

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Kind of playing devil's advocate here, as I am not a huge fan of Edge (though I don't hate him, pre-2009 or so). But what's the difference between his silly Spear and Hogan's Legdrop finisher? If the commentary and the opponents sell it as devastating, then isn't that what matters?

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Seriously, Edge is a terrible wrestler. Usually, in cases like Michaels or Angle or whoever, you can at least see where Dave is coming from because there are things those guys do well. But Edge? Overuses a spear that doesn't even look that good, has the types of facial expressions that are so exaggerated that they are embarrassing around non-fans, not really good at selling a beatdown ... that doesn't even get into his promos. Edge is probably the very worst promo guy who is considered good.

 

He's had a few good matches against the right people -- but even then, it's just been a few.

I don’t want to be the guy defending Edge. Yes he sounds like a guy doing a Shadow Stevens impression on the mic, his acting is as bad as DDP or HBK, his “ultimate opportunist” “I’m smart” mic work is as unconvincing as HHH’s worst “cerebral Assassin” “master of the mental game” mic work. He was a horrible babyface, who worked face matches exactly the same way Spike Dudley worked face matches (except Spike has better bumps and better looking “hit out of nowhere” offense---and well Edge is 6’3” and jacked while Spike is 5’6” and rail thin). His exaggerated heel facial expressions are as embarrassing as HBK’s most corny face facial expressions. All of this is true. But….

 

In 2006 when he was moved into the RAW main event/(PPV semi) scene he was super refreshing.

 

It may be a completely corny main event heel act. But he was committed to it. And it was the first time in along time that RAW had a main event heel that was actually willing to work heel. That‘s worth something.

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At the risk of being trolled, that says a lot about Dave's tastes. I don't even think most fans of Edge would regard him as a consistent participant in "four star" matches. At least not more so than EVERY OTHER WRESTLER.

I hope this isnt a shot at me, just saying. At least you give a reason here hence I dont have much of a problem. There is a difference between this and saying categorically someone isnt knowledge, something you havent retracted by the way. Im amazed and saddened that I have to point this out again.

 

lol

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At the risk of being trolled, that says a lot about Dave's tastes. I don't even think most fans of Edge would regard him as a consistent participant in "four star" matches. At least not more so than EVERY OTHER WRESTLER.

 

The more interesting question to me is (given Dave's tendency to throw out lots of stars for certain guys) what are the Angle or HBK main event matches that Dave rated under four stars? Angle has been in probably as many PPV main events as Edge (I think this list doesn't include TNA PPVs). HBK has probably had about twice as many PPV main events as Edge. Wonder which matches were the ones that brought down their star per PPV average.

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By that standard, the top 15 for singles main events on big shows have been: 1. Hulk Hogan (53); 2. Ric Flair (37); 3. Undertaker (35); 4. HHH (33); 5. Steve Austin and Shawn Michaels (22); 7. Sting and Bret Hart (20); 9. John Cena, Kevin Nash and The Rock (17); 12. Lex Luger (13); 13. Randy Savage, Vader and Randy Orton (12).

 

Most championship defenses on big shows would be: 1. Hogan (44) 2. Flair (31); 3. HHH (24); 4. Cena (22); 5. Austin (21); 6. Michaels and Nash (11); 8. Hart and Batista (10).

 

Most four-star matches in PPV main events (and this would be the show ending match, not a semi-main event): 1. Flair (19); 2. HHH and Michaels (14); 4.Austin (13); 5. Undertaker (11); 6. Cena, Rock, Kurt Angle and Edge (10); 10. Sting (8); 11. Bret Hart, Chris Jericho (7); 13. Mick Foley and Chris Benoit (6); 15. Vader (5).

 

Davey Boy Smith had more main events (15) than anyone who was never a major world champion. Arn Anderson had more main events (12) than anyone who never got a singles main event. Sid Vicious had the most main events (18) without ever having a four-star match.

 

The highest percentage of main events being four-star matches was not Flair or Michaels, although they had a high percentage. The highest percentage was Edge (10 of 18, 56%); Kurt Angle (10 of 19, 53%), Cena (10 of 28, 36%), Rock (10 of 28, 36%), Michaels (14 of 39, 36) and then Flair (19 of 55, 35%), Foley (6 of 17, 35%) and Austin (13 of 41, 32%).

Angle's TNA stuff was counted in the research.

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So Shawn has a LOT of mains that didn't hit ****+.

 

Did Stacy O’Laughlin publish the data on the WO-4 boards? Or elsewhere?

 

If not, this is one of those things where Dave could take advantage of the fact that he has a website. The full data/research is too much for the WON, but by making it available somewhere, people can review it and build on it.

 

John

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One thing people should keep in mind when adding Japanese promotions to the list:

 

Shows often have Double Main Events.

 

I suspect Stacy was dealing with that in the US stuff, as Dave has at times pointed out that what goes on last isn't always the main, nor is the Title Match.

 

In Japan, we get some of the same. 1994 AJPW Tag League Final Night:

 

Last: Kawada & Taue vs Baba & Hansen

Second to Last: Misawa & Kobashi vs Williams & Ace

 

These are both the "main event". It was booked that these were the teams in the chase for the Tag League. Misawa & Kobashi won, then had to see what happened in the last match. Baba & Hansen won, which gave the Tag League to Misawa & Kobashi.

 

Had the same thing in 1991: Gordy & Doc vs Hansen & Spivey went on last if I recall, with Jumbo & Taue vs Misawa & Kawada on before that. Does anyone truly think that natives matches wasn't every bit as much of the Main as the gaijin match? No.

 

So you need to take some care in assigning the main event status. At times it's a little obvious (10/92 AJPW Budokan, despite a very strong semi-main). At other times less so (6/92 AJPW Budokan with a TC match that ended up taking Tokyo Sports Match of the Year while the top two stars in the promotion were opposite each other in a Tag Title match).

 

Or the perfect example of Mania 2002. Does anyone think the match that went on last for the undisputed title warrants full share of the main event status? I don't think so. Okay, so it's as best partial... but then check out the crowd reaction to it and the other main match. Yeah, at times one half of a main is more heated. The problem there... folks were *leaving* during the match that went on last. It's very clear that to the fans in the building (which was rather large) and most likely to the fans at home who bought it, that Rock-Hogan was the Main Event, and Jericho-Trip was one of the other Big Matches on the show. I seem to recall we knew that at the time as well, even before that Sunday: it became a bit more obvious on TV that the fans weren't off the charts interested in Jericho-Trip, while the interest in Hogan-Rock was pretty damn big.

 

The New Japan dome shows with:

 

* Tenryu-Choshu and Muta-Chono NWA/IWGP

* Tenryu-Inoki and Hash-Chono IWGP

 

At the time, we pretty much knew that the Tenryu match was the main. Through history, folks might think it's those younger Hall of Famers in the title matches.

 

So often you need to think card through.

 

John

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Edge's ***+ career history, according to this archive of Dave Meltzer star ratings (PPV main events bolded):

7/25/99 Jeff Jarrett vs. Edge ***

8/22/99 Edge/Christian vs. Matt Hardy/Jeff Hardy ***1/4

10/17/99 Matt Hardy/Jeff Hardy vs. Edge/Christian (Ladder) ****1/2

11/14/99 Hardcore Holly/Crash Holly/Brian Christopher/Scott Taylor vs. Edge/Christian/Matt Hardy/Jeff Hardy (Elimination) ***

2/27/00 Edge/Christian vs. Matt Hardy/Jeff Hardy ***

4/2/00 Edge/Christian vs. Matt Hardy/Jeff Hardy vs. Bubba Ray Dudley/D-Von Dudley (Ladder) ****

4/30/00 Edge/Christian vs. X-Pac/Road Dogg ***

5/6/00 Matt Hardy/Jeff Hardy vs. Edge/Christian ***

8/27/00 Edge/Christian vs. Bubba Ray Dudley/D-Von Dudley vs. Matt Hardy/Jeff Hardy (Tables, Ladders & Chairs) ****1/2

9/24/00 Matt Hardy/Jeff Hardy vs. Edge/Christian (Cage) ***1/2

4/1/01 Edge/Christian vs. Matt Hardy/Jeff Hardy vs. Bubba Ray Dudley/D-Von Dudley (Tables, Ladders & Chairs) ****3/4

5/5/01 Edge/Christian vs. X-Pac/Justin Credible vs. Matt Hardy/Jeff Hardy vs. Bubba Ray Dudley/D-Von Dudley ***

5/20/01 Chris Benoit/Chris Jericho vs. Acolytes vs. Bubba Ray Dudley/D-Von Dudley vs. Matt Hardy/Jeff Hardy vs. Edge/Christian vs. X-Pac/Justin Credible (Gauntlet) ***1/2

5/24/01 Chris Benoit/Chris Jericho vs. Bubba Ray Dudley/D-Von Dudley vs. Matt Hardy/Jeff Hardy vs. Edge/Christian (Tables, Ladders & Chairs) ****3/4

6/24/01 Edge vs. Kurt Angle ***

8/19/01 Edge vs. Lance Storm ***1/4

9/23/01 Christian vs. Edge ***

10/21/01 Edge vs. Christian (Ladder) ***3/4

11/3/01 Edge vs. Christian (Cage) ***1/4

11/18/01 Edge vs. Test ***1/2

4/21/02 Kurt Angle vs. Edge ****1/4

5/19/02 Edge vs. Kurt Angle (Hair vs. Hair) ****1/2

5/30/02 Kurt Angle vs. Edge (Cage) ****1/4

7/25/02 Edge vs. Chris Jericho (Cage) ****

8/25/02 Edge vs. Eddy Guerrero ***1/4

9/22/02 Eddy Guerrero vs. Edge ***3/4

9/26/02 Edge vs. Eddy Guerrero (No DQ) ****1/2

10/3/02 Edge vs. Kurt Angle ****1/4

10/20/02 Kurt Angle/Chris Benoit vs. Edge/Rey Mysterio ****3/4

10/26/02 Brock Lesnar/Paul Heyman vs. Edge ***1/2

10/31/02 Edge vs. Chris Benoit ***3/4

11/7/02 Edge/Rey Mysterio vs. Kurt Angle/Chris Benoit (2/3 falls) ****

11/17/02 Eddy Guerrero/Chavo Guerrero vs. Kurt Angle/Chris Benoit vs. Edge/Rey Mysterio ***1/2

12/5/02 Kurt Angle vs. Edge vs. Chris Benoit vs. Eddy Guerrero (Elimination) ****1/2

12/26/02 Eddy Guerrero/Chavo Guerrero vs. Billy Kidman/Edge ***3/4

1/16/03 Chris Benoit/Edge vs. Kurt Angle/Shelton Benjamin/Charlie Haas ****

1/30/03 Chris Benoit/Edge vs. Shelton Benjamin/Charlie Haas ***1/2

4/26/04 Chris Benoit/Edge vs. Ric Flair/Batista ***3/4

5/17/04 Chris Benoit/Edge vs. Randy Orton/Batista ****

6/14/04 Chris Benoit/Edge/Chris Jericho vs. Ric Flair/Randy Orton/Batista (Elimination) ***1/4

7/11/04 Randy Orton vs. Edge ****1/4

7/19/04 Edge vs. Randy Orton ****

8/2/04 Chris Benoit/Edge/Chris Jericho vs. Randy Orton/Ric Flair/Batista ****1/4

8/9/04 Edge vs. Chris Jericho ***1/2

11/14/04 Chris Jericho/Randy Orton/Chris Benoit/Maven vs. Triple H/Batista/Edge/Gene Snitsky (Elimination) ***1/4

11/29/04 Triple H vs. Edge vs. Chris Benoit ***3/4

12/13/04 Edge vs. Randy Orton ***1/2

1/9/05 Triple H vs. Randy Orton vs. Chris Jericho vs. Edge vs. Batista vs. Chris Benoit (Elimination Chamber) ****1/4

1/24/05 Chris Benoit/Chris Jericho/Shawn Michaels vs. Tyson Tomko/Christian/Edge ***1/2

1/30/05 Shawn Michaels vs. Edge ***1/4

2/21/05 Edge/Christian vs. Randy Orton/Shawn Michaels ****

2/28/05 Edge vs. Shawn Michaels (Street Fight) ***3/4

3/21/05 Shelton Benjamin/Chris Jericho vs. Edge/Christian ***1/2

3/28/05 Chris Benoit/Chris Jericho/Shelton Benjamin vs. Tyson Tomko/Christian/Edge ***1/2

4/3/05 Edge vs. Chris Benoit vs. Shelton Benjamin vs. Kane vs. Chris Jericho vs. Christian (Ladder) ****1/2

4/4/05 Edge vs. Chris Benoit ****

5/1/05 Chris Benoit vs. Edge (Last Man Standing) ****

5/2/05 Edge vs. Chris Jericho ***1/2

5/9/05 Edge vs. Shawn Michaels ***1/4

9/18/05 Matt Hardy vs. Edge (Cage) ****1/4

10/3/05 Matt Hardy vs. Edge (Ladder) ***1/2

1/16/06 Edge vs. Ric Flair (Tables, Ladders and Chairs) ****

4/2/06 Mick Foley vs. Edge (Hardcore) ****

4/30/06 John Cena vs. Triple H vs. Edge ****1/4

6/25/06 Rob Van Dam vs. Edge ***1/2

8/20/06 Edge vs. John Cena (Title Can Change Hands on DQ) ***3/4

9/17/06 John Cena vs. Edge (Tables, Ladders, and Chairs) ****1/4

10/2/06 John Cena vs. Edge (Cage) ***3/4

12/4/06 Matt Hardy/Jeff Hardy/Shawn Michaels/Triple H vs. Randy Orton/Edge/Joey Mercury/Johnny Nitro ***

12/11/06 Ric Flair/Triple H/Shawn Michaels vs. Randy Orton/Edge/Kenny ***1/4

12/18/06 Edge vs. John Cena ***/14

1/7/07 Shawn Michaels/Triple H vs. Edge/Randy Orton ***3/4

1/22/07 Shawn Michaels vs. Edge (Street Fight) ****

2/16/07 Batista/Undertaker vs. Edge/Randy Orton ***1/4

2/19/07 Edge vs. Rob Van Dam ***1/2

4/1/07 Mr. Kennedy vs. Edge vs. Jeff Hardy vs. King Booker vs. Randy Orton vs. Matt Hardy vs. CM Punk vs. Finlay (Ladder) ****1/4

4/29/2007 John Cena vs. Randy Orton vs. Shawn Michaels vs. Edge ****1/2

4/30/2007 Edge vs. Randy Orton ****1/4

6/2/2007 Chris Benoit/Batista vs. Edge/MVP ***

6/3/2007 Edge vs. Batista (Cage) ***1/2

6/8/2007 Edge vs. Chris Benoit ****

6/15/07 Edge vs. Ric Flair ***1/4

6/22/07 Ric Flair/Batista vs. Edge/MVP ***1/2

12/16/07 Undertaker vs. Batista vs. Edge ***

1/27/08 Rey Mysterio vs. Edge ***1/4

3/30/08 Edge vs. Undertaker ****1/4

4/25/08 Edge vs. CM Punk ***1/4

4/27/08 Undertaker vs. Edge ***1/2

5/18/08 Edge vs. Undertaker ***1/2

6/1/2008 The Undertaker vs. Edge (Tables, Ladders, Chairs) ***1/2

6/29/08 Batista vs. Edge ***1/2

7/20/08 Triple H vs. Edge ***1/2

8/2/08 Jeff Hardy vs. Edge ***1/2

8/17/08 Edge vs. Undertaker ****1/2 (Hell in a Cell)

12/14/08 Edge vs. Jeff Hardy vs. Triple H ****

1/25/09 Edge vs. Jeff Hardy ***3/4

2/15/09 Edge vs. Triple H vs. Undertaker vs. Big Show vs. Jeff Hardy vs. Kozlov (Elimination Chamber) ****1/4

2/15/09 John Cena vs. Edge vs. Rey Mysterio vs. Chris Jericho vs. Kane vs. Mike Knox (Elimination Chamber) ****1/4

2/20/09 Edge vs. Jeff Hardy ***1/2

3/2/09 Edge vs. John Cena ***

4/5/09 Edge vs. Big Show vs. John Cena ***1/4

4/6/09 John Cena/CM Punk/Jeff Hardy/Ricky Steamboat/Rey Mysterio vs. Edge/Big Show/Matt Hardy/Chris Jericho/Kane ***1/2

4/26/09 John Cena vs. Edge (Last Man Standing) ****1/2

5/17/09 Jeff Hardy vs. Edge ***3/4

6/7/09 Jeff Hardy vs. Edge (Ladder) ****1/4

6/15/09 CM Punk vs. Edge vs. Jeff Hardy ***3/4

3/28/10 Chris Jericho vs. Edge ****

4/25/10 Edge vs. Chris Jericho (Cage) ***1/2

6/20/10 Sheamus vs. John Cena vs. Edge vs. Randy Orton ***

7/18/10 The Miz vs. Evan Bourne vs. Randy Orton vs. Mark Henry vs. Chris Jericho vs. Edge vs. Ted DiBiase vs. John Morrison ****

7/19/10 Randy Orton vs. Chris Jericho vs. Edge ****

8/15/10 John Cena/Chris Jericho/Edge/John Morrison/Bret Hart/R-Truth/Daniel Bryan vs. Wade Barrett/Michael Tarver/Heath Slater/Darren Young/David Otunga/Justin Gabriel/Skip Sheffield (Elimination) ***1/2

9/19/10 Randy Orton vs. Edge vs. Chris Jericho vs. Wade Barrett vs. John Cena vs. Sheamus (Elimination) ***1/2

12/19/10 Alberto Del Rio vs. Edge vs. Kane vs. Rey Mysterio (TLC) ****1/4

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Angle's TNA stuff was counted in the research.

Reader Stacy O’Laughlin did research into the history of WWE/WWF and WCW PPV wrestling from 1986 to 2009. Actually, this research included PPV shows, WCW Clash of Champions and WWF Saturday Night Main Event’s (the 1985-1991 run when it was a big deal, not the current throw away incarnation). TNA was not included in the listing.

 

...

 

He noted that he didn’t include multiple person main event matches figuring that someone on top in a four-way or a six-way may have just been someone thrown in as opposed to someone expected to draw on top. Of course, by the time the four-way and six-way main events started being used, events were no longer selling based on the main event most of the time anyway.

...

 

Most four-star matches in PPV main events (and this would be the show ending match, not a semi-main event)

TNA not counted. And very specific last slot is main event definition of main event. When O'Laughlin discounts multiple person main events. My sense is that he is discounting 3 ways, 4 ways, 6 ways, etc... and that he is not discounting tags (the mention of Arn) or six man tags. But if I'm wrong then tag league would be screwed.

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Huh? Maybe he did include multiperson matches or semi mains.

 

Edge singles main event matches according to archives of star ratings not including multi person matches or semi mains would just be:

 

8/20/06 Edge vs. John Cena (Title Can Change Hands on DQ) ***3/4

9/17/06 John Cena vs. Edge (Tables, Ladders, and Chairs) ****1/4

3/30/08 Edge vs. Undertaker ****1/4

6/1/2008 The Undertaker vs. Edge (Tables, Ladders, Chairs) ***1/2

7/20/08 Triple H vs. Edge ***1/2

8/17/08 Edge vs. Undertaker ****1/2 (Hell in a Cell)

4/26/09 John Cena vs. Edge (Last Man Standing) ****1/2

5/17/09 Jeff Hardy vs. Edge ***3/4

6/7/09 Jeff Hardy vs. Edge (Ladder) ****1/4

 

 

8/2/08 Jeff Hardy vs. Edge ***1/2 is a SNME but clearly not from the 85-91 SNME run.

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TNA not counted. And very specific last slot is main event definition of main event. When O'Laughlin discounts multiple person main events. My sense is that he is discounting 3 ways, 4 ways, 6 ways, etc... and that he is not discounting tags (the mention of Arn) or six man tags. But if I'm wrong then tag league would be screwed.

That was a jdw typo: was --> wasn't

 

John

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Most four-star matches in PPV main events (and this would be the show ending match, not a semi-main event)

And very specific last slot is main event definition of main event.

If that's the case, he's pretty being rather odd as is Dave for using it. Dave above all has preached that the Last Match isn't always the Main Event.

 

For example, Hogan's matches often didn't close SNME. *None* of his matches closed NBC's The Main Event shows, with te closest coming when they went off the air during the Can-Am vs Harts was shown after the Hogan-Andre.

 

What was the selling point of Mania IV? Hogan-Andre meeting first. Savage-DiBiase wasn't a major part of selling the PPV because it wasn't even "known" to the fans that it would be the Final.

 

Now I'd really like to see how this list was put together. What if something is on the list that wasn't Hogan-Vince at Mania that Dave told us week after week was the main event of the card?

 

John

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