rovert Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 At the risk of being trolled, that says a lot about Dave's tastes. I don't even think most fans of Edge would regard him as a consistent participant in "four star" matches. At least not more so than EVERY OTHER WRESTLER. I hope this isnt a shot at me, just saying. At least you give a reason here hence I dont have much of a problem. There is a difference between this and saying categorically someone isnt knowledge, something you havent retracted by the way. Im amazed and saddened that I have to point this out again. lol What? Fair enough Dylan, but dont ever complain about the prospect of being trolled again if you are going to act like this. Im actually amazed and saddened as I went out of my way to squash whatever this is. Clearly you dont as you have made no mention of doing the same nor taking back what started all this either. How childish can you be here, seriously Dylan. I want it to end now, dont know how many I have to ask. This forum isnt and shouldnt be about this pettiness so please just knock it on the head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 Just take Shawn for example, all these co main events/real main events get ignored by such a listing: 3/20/94 Shawn Michaels vs. Razor Ramon (Ladder) ***** 4/2/95 Shawn Michaels vs. Diesel **** 7/23/95 Shawn Michaels vs. Jeff Jarrett ****1/2 8/27/95 Shawn Michaels vs. Razor Ramon (Ladder) ****3/4 2/18/96 Shawn Michaels vs. Owen Hart **** 6/9/97 Shawn Michaels vs. Steve Austin **** 8/25/02 Shawn Michaels vs. Triple H (Street Fight) ****1/4 4/3/05 Shawn Michaels vs. Kurt Angle ****3/4 4/2/06 Shawn Michaels vs. Vince McMahon (No Holds Barred) ***1/2 3/30/08 Ric Flair vs. Shawn Michaels ***1/2 9/7/08 Chris Jericho vs. Shawn Michaels (Unsanctioned) ****1/4 4/5/09 Undertaker vs. Shawn Michaels ****3/4 8/23/09 Shawn Michaels/Triple H vs. Ted DiBiase/Cody Rhodes ***1/2 Right there, there's 10 extra ****+ matches that probably should have been included. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 At the risk of being trolled, that says a lot about Dave's tastes. I don't even think most fans of Edge would regard him as a consistent participant in "four star" matches. At least not more so than EVERY OTHER WRESTLER. I hope this isnt a shot at me, just saying. At least you give a reason here hence I dont have much of a problem. There is a difference between this and saying categorically someone isnt knowledge, something you havent retracted by the way. Im amazed and saddened that I have to point this out again. lol What? Fair enough Dylan, but dont ever complain about the prospect of being trolled again if you are going to act like this. Im actually amazed and saddened as I went out of my way to squash whatever this is. Clearly you dont as you have made no mention of doing the same nor taking back what started all this either. How childish can you be here, seriously Dylan. I want it to end now, dont know how many I have to ask. This forum isnt and shouldnt be about this pettiness so please just knock it on the head. You are the one who continues to troll. I'm laughing at your gimmick now. "amazed and saddened" was a pretty amusing line once. Twice is excessive. I'll ignore your nonsense from here on out and let you have the "last word" you crave so much so you don't totally destroy another thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 Just take Shawn for example, all these co main events/real main events get ignored by such a listing: I have to think that some of them are included. Edge's numbers didn't seem to add up without it. Keith: you're on the WO-4 boards. You could ask Dave if Stacy's data is avaiable anywhere. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisZ Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 The main event of the SNME shows pretty much always took place in the 12:00 AM quarter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Morris Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 While I haven't seen a lot of Edge's recent work, I will say that, in watching the Jericho DVD, I far more enjoyed Jericho's matches with Cena, Michaels and Rey than I did his match with Edge. The Edge match just left me underwhelmed... not to mention I hated the finish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 Edge's numbers didn't seem to add up without it. By my tally I got 10 out of 16 for Edge, excluding the star ratings for 2010 which weren't included for some reason, which is the correct number of ****+ matches, but two main event matches short. Maybe Edge was in two sub *** main events over the years? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 While I haven't seen a lot of Edge's recent work, I will say that, in watching the Jericho DVD, I far more enjoyed Jericho's matches with Cena, Michaels and Rey than I did his match with Edge. The Edge match just left me underwhelmed... not to mention I hated the finish. I found the Edge/Jericho cage match from last year sort of fascinating. The only thing I can really compare it to is GAB 91 Luger/Windham. The latter is a cage match both without an issue and with heel/face lines blurred. What you get is a bloodless cage match where the guys aren't trying to kill each other. They want to win the belt, not bloody one another or hurt the other guy. The cage turns into something of a prop, something to be indirectly used instead of directly. With Edge/Jericho, they had an issue, but they were stuck in the PG environment and they couldn't use the cage in the more traditional feud-ending ways. So it's a bloodless cage match. Obviously given who they were, they couldn't work it like a Bundy/Hogan match or something. I thought they at least tried to make the most of what they had to work with despite the limitations. I'm not saying it was great or anything but it was interesting and I was glad I watched it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 Edge's numbers didn't seem to add up without it. By my tally I got 10 out of 16 for Edge, excluding the star ratings for 2010 which weren't included for some reason, which is the correct number of ****+ matches, but two main event matches short. Maybe Edge was in two sub *** main events over the years? Does your tally include multi-person matches? John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 Edge's numbers didn't seem to add up without it. By my tally I got 10 out of 16 for Edge, excluding the star ratings for 2010 which weren't included for some reason, which is the correct number of ****+ matches, but two main event matches short. Maybe Edge was in two sub *** main events over the years? Does your tally include multi-person matches? Yes, which I think is correct. Reading Dave's write up again I think multi-person matches were only excluded from the drawing statistics, not the workrate statistics, as the numbers don't match up otherwise: By that standard, the top 15 for singles main events on big shows have been: 1. Hulk Hogan (53); 2. Ric Flair (37); 3. Undertaker (35); 4. HHH (33); 5. Steve Austin and Shawn Michaels (22); 7. Sting and Bret Hart (20); 9. John Cena, Kevin Nash and The Rock (17); 12. Lex Luger (13); 13. Randy Savage, Vader and Randy Orton (12). The highest percentage of main events being four-star matches was not Flair or Michaels, although they had a high percentage. The highest percentage was Edge (10 of 18, 56%); Kurt Angle (10 of 19, 53%), Cena (10 of 28, 36%), Rock (10 of 28, 36%), Michaels (14 of 39, 36) and then Flair (19 of 55, 35%), Foley (6 of 17, 35%) and Austin (13 of 41, 32%). Of course much of the Flair main events would have been when he was past the age of 40, as he was 37 in 1986 when this started. Between the ages of 37 and 41, Flair's percentage was 67% (12 of 18). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rovert Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 You are the one who continues to troll. I'm laughing at your gimmick now. "amazed and saddened" was a pretty amusing line once. Twice is excessive. I'll ignore your nonsense from here on out and let you have the "last word" you crave so much so you don't totally destroy another thread. How exactly do I continue to troll here? Im not looking for the last word Ive tried to bury the hachet here numerous times. Just because you dont seem to want to doesnt make it a gimmick. Ill say it for a third time if you what I amazed and saddened that I have to do all the footwork here when you are the person who engaged in the person attacks which start this whole deal. Im not looking to destroy any threads I was the one who tried to settle and end this numerous times so dont give that crap. If you care too much about your e-status on here to take back what you said than that is really sad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomk Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 While I haven't seen a lot of Edge's recent work, I will say that, in watching the Jericho DVD, I far more enjoyed Jericho's matches with Cena, Michaels and Rey than I did his match with Edge. The Edge match just left me underwhelmed... not to mention I hated the finish. I found the Edge/Jericho cage match from last year sort of fascinating. The only thing I can really compare it to is GAB 91 Luger/Windham. The latter is a cage match both without an issue and with heel/face lines blurred. What you get is a bloodless cage match where the guys aren't trying to kill each other. They want to win the belt, not bloody one another or hurt the other guy. The cage turns into something of a prop, something to be indirectly used instead of directly. With Edge/Jericho, they had an issue, but they were stuck in the PG environment and they couldn't use the cage in the more traditional feud-ending ways. So it's a bloodless cage match. Obviously given who they were, they couldn't work it like a Bundy/Hogan match or something. I thought they at least tried to make the most of what they had to work with despite the limitations. I'm not saying it was great or anything but it was interesting and I was glad I watched it. Television bloodless workrate cage match has been a feud ending staple for the WWE for most of this decade. At least as far back as when I was last writing weekly workrate repoorts. It is a weird way to end a feud and move on to the next one. But it was the formula. The June 15, 2004 Eddie v JBL bloodless workrate cage match that ended the Eddie v JBL (blood feud) and set up the Eddie v Angle stuff is probably a good reference point for comparison. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cox Posted June 9, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2013 Bumping this. I went to a wrestling convention over the weekend, partially because it was 15 minutes from my house, and partly because Robert Fuller and Stan Hansen (two of my all-time favorites) were going to be there and I wanted to get my picture taken with them, because I'm a huge mark. The three big draws for the weekend, apparently, were Sting, Bruno Sammartino, and Edge. Fans were paying a minimum of $100 (for a picture/autograph or two autographs) and up to $250 (for five autographs and early placement in line) to meet Edge. And, what's crazier is, people were actually paying this much to meet Edge! This utterly baffled me. I realize I'm not an Edge fan and never will be, but I can't even fathom Edge resonating that much with fans to where people would shell out that kind of money just to meet him. He did not main event WWE during a particularly important time in the company's history, nor was he a true main eventer for very long. I would not say he was one of the top 5 most memorable wrestlers of the past 12 or so years in WWE, and may struggle to be top ten on that list. On a weekend where there were some actual legends in the house like Hansen and Bruno, I found it odd that the guys getting $100 to meet with them, Sting and Edge, both can't even get 50% of the vote in the WON Hall of Fame balloting. And then there are blurbs like this from this week's Observer: In Japan, among the wrestlers, Keiji Muto and Tetsuya Naito have the insider reputation as the best at putting together a match. In WWE, Edge used to be considered one of the best by his peers. Of the current group, Jericho and Punk have the rep and Bryan is getting it. I used to think Bryan was fantastic at match layout in his ROH days. Bryan’s work with Reigns on Smackdown was really impressive and the fact he always has good matches against everyone, even Ryback, speaks volumes. Undertaker has the rep as well because he’s Undertaker. Cena’s rep is that he asks the right questions, totally understands what is needed, but lets the heels do a lot of it and lets Arn Anderson, who is his agent, come up with a lot of his stuff. Of the newer guys, Ambrose is starting to develop a good rep. HHH, Mysterio and Michaels also have good reps in this regard. So...maybe I'm the crazy one for not seeing the big deal about Edge, I don't know. I just see him as a guy among a bunch of other guys who was occasionally good but often groan-worthy when I watched him over the past several years. He can be carried when in there against guys like Cena, but rarely would I say an Edge match was good because Edge was in it. So am I crazy, or are the many people willing to fork over that kind of money just to get an awkward 30 second conversation with Edge the crazy ones? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackwebb Posted June 10, 2013 Report Share Posted June 10, 2013 I have tried to find an explanation as to why my opinion is so far off from most people when it comes to certain wrestlers. Best I can come up with is the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics is accurate. For some reason when I watch Edge or Kurt Angle I get a feed from an alternate reality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted June 10, 2013 Report Share Posted June 10, 2013 I have no idea how Edge would get a rep as a layout guy. If he's so good at putting matches together, why do almost all of his notable matches have some sort of gimmick as a crutch? How long would it take you to think of a memorable straight-up singles match involving Edge? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted June 10, 2013 Report Share Posted June 10, 2013 Edge is a modern star that was marketed and promoted as a major star very recently. Doesn't surprise me he'd have a big crowd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Redman Posted June 11, 2013 Report Share Posted June 11, 2013 Yeah, that aspect isn't surprising at all. He's one of the top post-Attitude stars who aren't Cena (along with Orton, Batista, Jeff Hardy, Punk, Rey), and especially now with his sudden retirement and rushed HOF induction, he is firmly positioned as a WWE Legend to the current generation. This is a weird blast from the past too, as I was actually the one who supplied the research to Meltzer in the first place. Amazing how bored I used to be at uni. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted September 4, 2013 Report Share Posted September 4, 2013 I didn't want to clutter the Cena/Tanahashi thread with this post, but Eric really hammered on my main problem with Edge as a main eventer in his post: he had possibly the worst offense in WWE at the time. He's in there defending or challenging for a title against these big iconic characters like Batista, Kane, Cena, Undertaker. I'm supposed to buy his nearfalls off of a running hug or whatever weak offense he'd hit before a nearfall? It's why his character got so played out because they had to keep finding more and more elaborate ways for him to win. There's no comparison between the Batista Bomb, Chokeslam, Tombstone and even the FU/AA over anything Edge was doing. If the guy had even ONE decent looking offensive move I could buy putting away those guys I wouldn't have been so down on his whole main event run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Redman Posted September 4, 2013 Report Share Posted September 4, 2013 This is one of those weird ass talking points that I don't think exists outside of our little world. People like us talk about the "running hug" and Edge's "shitty moveset" all the time, when I don't think you would find a single non-smark fan who has even considered the idea that Edge has weak looking moves. If anyone can, I'd love to hear of it. The spear was crazy over as his finish and crowds always accepted it as a match-ender. I think you have it the other way around actually. They kept having to find more elaborate ways for him to win because his 'Ultimate Opportunist' character was so played out, and all they could think to do was bring him back for another surprise return/run-in/shocking title win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted September 4, 2013 Report Share Posted September 4, 2013 I won't speak for his broader moveset, but the sports bar I used to watch the ppv's at was filled with people who were to some degree another Edge fans and yet it wasn't uncommon to hear them joking about the "running hug" or how silly the spear looked. It didn't effect their enjoyment of Edge, but it was something I heard a ton from fans well outside of this universe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted September 4, 2013 Report Share Posted September 4, 2013 Why is offense so important when it comes to Edge? I've frequently seen offense dismissed as being of limited importance on these boards. I ask this not because I care for Edge at all, but in the interests of rigour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Redman Posted September 4, 2013 Report Share Posted September 4, 2013 Fair enough then. I think there's still a point to be made that it didn't stop the spear from being really over as a finisher and didn't really give Edge any credibility issues broadly speaking. It's something that gets brought up on the internet all the time, and yet had no real consequence in the real world I don't think. Of course it's a perfectly valid point to bring up regarding someone's personal opinion about him as a worker. Maybe it's just me because as I've said before, I'm not someone who really cares about shitty movesets as a rule. I know I never gave a single thought to his moves looking weak until I read about it on the internet. It's not something that concerns me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted September 4, 2013 Report Share Posted September 4, 2013 I don't want to speak for others, but working a heat section does not require varied offense, it does however require offense that at least looks believable. Offense is important, but not necessarily for the reasons some people would have you believe (i.e it's not a game of "count the moves!") Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted September 4, 2013 Report Share Posted September 4, 2013 Why is offense so important when it comes to Edge? I've frequently seen offense dismissed as being of limited importance on these boards. I ask this not because I care for Edge at all, but in the interests of rigour. Edge was a pretty offensive wrestler. (ha!) He didn't work his matches around bumping and selling. He worked his matches around his corny offense. I think it's the difference between a wrestler having limited offense (which many great workers do) and a wrestler having actively bad offense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted September 4, 2013 Report Share Posted September 4, 2013 Fair enough then. I think there's still a point to be made that it didn't stop the spear from being really over as a finisher and didn't really give Edge any credibility issues broadly speaking. It's something that gets brought up on the internet all the time, and yet had no real consequence in the real world I don't think. Of course it's a perfectly valid point to bring up regarding someone's personal opinion about him as a worker. Maybe it's just me because as I've said before, I'm not someone who really cares about shitty movesets as a rule. I know I never gave a single thought to his moves looking weak until I read about it on the internet. It's not something that concerns me. Edge stayed over once Lita got him over as a main event heel. Yes he had Vickie after and yes I have my serious doubts that he would have ever heated up or stayed as hot without the ladies (he never seemed the same when he was on his own in terms of drawing heat and interest as a heel), but there is no question that he was a star of some note. I don't think Edge's offense was any good, but it was the ridiculous overacting that bothered me far more Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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