The significance of a big loss

[JerryvonKramer]

Sorry to keep going on about this, but I'm in a state of shock.

 

September 25, 1987 - Ronnie Garvin defeats Ric Flair for the NWA World Title

 

August 23, 1990 - Rhythm 'n' Blues defeat Ronnie Garvin and Anderson

 

October 13, 1990 - The Orient Express defeat Ronnie Garvin and Major Yates

 

I never realised Garvin became SUCH a jobber in his final days. It's comparable to Jerry Valiant jobbing to Uncle Elmer in 6 seconds. I don't think even Hercules got this sort of treatment in 92.

 

EDIT:

 

Oh god ... it gets worse ...

 

- WWF Tag Team Champions Demolition Ax & Smash (w/ Demolition Crush) defeated Ronnie Garvin & Troy Williams when Ax pinned Williams after the Decapitation at 2:05 (7/17/90; Des Moines, IA; Veterans Memorial Auditorium)

 

- Greg Valentine & the Honkytonk Man (w/ Jimmy Hart) defeated Ron Garvin & Glen Ruth when Valentine pinned Ruth after a double back suplex at 3:28 (8/7/90; Springfield, MA; Civic Center)

 

- WWF Tag Team Champions Demolition defeated Ron Garvin, Jim McPherson, & Jose Luis Rivera at 5:31 when Ax pinned McPherson following the Decapitation; Demolition were not recognized as tag team champions when the bout aired (8/15/90; Utica, NY; Memorial Auditorium)

 

- Boris Zhukov defeated Ron Garvin via disqualification at 6:01 when Nikolai Volkoff interfered after Zhukov attempted a pinfall with his feet on the ropes (6/5/90; Rochester, NY; WarMemorial Auditorium)

 

He lost in a singles match to Boris Zhukov! IN 19 frickin 90!

 

I'd have retired too.

[Bix]

Losing to Zhukov after the Bolsheviks split is arguably worse than teaming with job guys.

[EricR]

I actually had no idea that Zhukov got a singles win over ANYbody, whether by CO, DQ, or pinfall. I though he was just losing 4 minute matches at that point. Yikes.

[Victator]

Garvin went from NWA champ to WWF version of Itallian Stallion.

[smkelly]

Is Ron related to the other Garvin?

[Johnny Sorrow]

Is Ron related to the other Garvin?

 

"No sir...we're of no relation."

[Victator]

He was Jimmy Garvin's step dad and tv brother.

[MikeCampbell]

Greg Valentine & the Honkytonk Man (w/ Jimmy Hart) defeated Ron Garvin & Glen Ruth

Ronnie Garvin as one of the Headbangers would have been awesome!

 

Re: Luger, I don't think the Summerslam booking hurt him at all. He was still right up there as one of the top babyfaces. I'd say that the WrestleMania loss did some damage, only because there really wasn't any sort of discernible follow up on it, and he seemed lost in the shuffle until the Tatanka angle in the summer of '94. I don't even think the six day title reign hurt him too bad. Luger's win over Hogan was one of the best moments on Nitro in '97, and it wasn't like he jobbed clean. Hell, Bischoff had spent all year undoing title losses to Hall and Nash.

[El-P]

Re: Luger, I don't think the Summerslam booking hurt him at all. He was still right up there as one of the top babyfaces. I'd say that the WrestleMania loss did some damage, only because there really wasn't any sort of discernible follow up on it, and he seemed lost in the shuffle until the Tatanka angle in the summer of '94. I don't even think the six day title reign hurt him too bad. Luger's win over Hogan was one of the best moments on Nitro in '97, and it wasn't like he jobbed clean. Hell, Bischoff had spent all year undoing title losses to Hall and Nash.

I think Luger's SummerSlam "win" hurt him a lot. Yes, he was still a top babyface, but his aura was hurt after he failed once yet celebrated like he had won the title. Made him look liek a goof. And the result is they lost confidence in him, booked the double finish at the Royal Rumble, where it was obvious Bret was more over than him, hence the WM booking. I remember he was supposed to feud with Perfect, which was setting him one year back, but Perfect departed, so he ended up in that terrible feud with teh Million Dollar Corporation, Luger was not a top dog after WM.

It's amazing how showing up on Nitro just made him look like a big deal once again. I agree his win on Nitro in 97 was one of the big moments of the year. Luger's got an interesting career, in that he stayed over like hell in WCW despite mostly sucking as a worker in the late 90's and not being always fed with interesting stuff. The pop he gets when he joins the Wolfpack is amazing.

[Cox]

It is probably telling that they ran the Allied Powers breakup as a vehicle for Davey Boy moreso than Luger. Now, maybe they knew Lex was leaving, but honestly, they hadn't done a thing with him other than they Davey Boy turn in almost a year, so clearly, he had stopped being a big deal. I just don't think Vince ever got what Luger brought to the table.

[MikeCampbell]

I think Luger's SummerSlam "win" hurt him a lot. Yes, he was still a top babyface, but his aura was hurt after he failed once yet celebrated like he had won the title. Made him look liek a goof.

That was pretty common in the late '80's and early '90's though. Both faces and heels would get the count out or DQ wins and start jumping up and down. Then Fink would announce that the title doesn't change hands. But, you're right, after 'Mania Luger more or less fizzled out. After the feud with Perfect, I don't know what they could have done with him. Bret was locked up with Owen at the time. Hell, Lex layed down for KING KONG BUNDY at Survivor Series that year.

[MJH]

That was pretty common in the late '80's and early '90's though. Both faces and heels would get the count out or DQ wins and start jumping up and down. Then Fink would announce that the title doesn't change hands.

SummerSlam was different, though. In that first scenario, it's presented as a let down. With Luger at SummerSlam, they treated it as a big deal like he'd actually won, with all the balloons and confetti and whatever.

 

I think the whole "All-American Hero" thing is only going to ever go so far anyway. I mean it's so pandering you're going to seem a goof. Hogan would reference that sort of thing, but Hogan wasn't The Patriot/Jim Duggan either where it's all they are. Bret's character was far more resonant and he'd been there so much longer building it up, I'm not sure I can imagine the Luger thing having worked significantly better, even if they had given him the belt at SummerSlam.

[Victator]

Greg Valentine & the Honkytonk Man (w/ Jimmy Hart) defeated Ron Garvin & Glen Ruth

Ronnie Garvin as one of the Headbangers would have been awesome!

 

Re: Luger, I don't think the Summerslam booking hurt him at all. He was still right up there as one of the top babyfaces. I'd say that the WrestleMania loss did some damage, only because there really wasn't any sort of discernible follow up on it, and he seemed lost in the shuffle until the Tatanka angle in the summer of '94. I don't even think the six day title reign hurt him too bad. Luger's win over Hogan was one of the best moments on Nitro in '97, and it wasn't like he jobbed clean. Hell, Bischoff had spent all year undoing title losses to Hall and Nash.

 

I think like Garvin it felt like the end of Luger's story. He won the big belt and lost it. Now he is feuding with and putting over Buff Bagwell at Starrcade.

 

Speaking of Luger I think losing to Flair at Starrcade did some damage. He was a talented performer so he bounced back. Boy Lex got screwed over a lot.

[Bob Morris]

I would say the most damaging win for Luger was his GAB '91 win against Barry Windham for the vacant WCW title. Truth be told, he was already screwed because fans knew about Flair's parting of the ways with WCW and weren't going to be rabid for anyone who won the title that night, but the worst thing WCW did was turn Luger heel with zero buildup and thus piss fans off even more.

 

Had it been Luger going over Flair, though, there's no doubt in my mind Luger would have been over huge as he was really hitting his stride that year.

 

As far as his WWF run goes, the problem was they wanted to build him for WMX but thus booked themselves into a corner with the SummerSlam match. On top of that, they make Ludvig Borga the next guy he's supposed to feud with.

 

If WWF had been smart, they would have put Yoko against somebody else at SummerSlam and have Fuji and Cornette pull somebody else in to go after Luger and thus force Luger to chase Yoko. At the very least, it might have caused fans to rally behind Luger in hopes of him getting his match with Yoko. The way they did it, though, didn't get fans to rally behind Luger in hopes of a rematch.

[JerryvonKramer]

I would say the most damaging win for Luger was his GAB '91 win against Barry Windham for the vacant WCW title. Truth be told, he was already screwed because fans knew about Flair's parting of the ways with WCW and weren't going to be rabid for anyone who won the title that night, but the worst thing WCW did was turn Luger heel with zero buildup and thus piss fans off even more.

 

Had it been Luger going over Flair, though, there's no doubt in my mind Luger would have been over huge as he was really hitting his stride that year.

Yeah, when I made the initial post I did consider mentioning this too. But then I thought, well, ANYONE winning that match was going to have that reaction, but you're right the completely random heel turn hurt that title run from the very start.

 

The worst thing about that turn is the fact that ALL that happens is Harley Race walks out and that's meant to be enough to turn Luger heel. No one knew what the fuck was going on. The fans didn't know what to do so they just chanted WE WANT FLAIR.

[smkelly]

Was the NWA still doing committee voting on the champion before/during/after Garvin's title win? If yes, then who was his main supporter in going over Flair? It still seems like an odd program and let alone, title switch. Garvin, though a solid talent, was not in the same ballpark as Flair.

[jdw]

I suspect there wasn't an "NWA Vote" after the Kerry-Flair title changes. Flair-Dusty and Flair-Garvin were Crockett moves, and Flair-Steamboat was under Turner. If there was a vote, it was a meaningless rubber stamp one. Crockett fully controlled the title by 1986.

 

John

[JerryvonKramer]

I thought the booking of the Garvin title win was fairly well known: they wanted Flair to win the title at Starrcade so needed an interim champion in the meantime. No one really wanted to be champ for 40 days or so, and Garvin took his one and only opportunity.

 

I've never quite understood the *point* of interim champions UNLESS it's a reign in the middle of an on-going feud a la Steamboat in 89. The Garvin reign just seems utterly pointless in hindsight. I can point to a few more too. Natural Disasters as WWF tag champs in 1992; Bagwell and Scorpio in 93; Texas Tornado as IC champ in '90; Jannetty in '93).

 

A transitional champ (e.g. Iron Shiek in '83; Steamboat as IC champ in '87) makes a lot more sense.

[Victator]

Barry should of won the title and gotten a big heel run. But I think Barry knew whoever won was in for a struggle.

[smkelly]

Still, a title reign was a title reign though. It'd be stupid to turn it down because it was already in the stars for you to lose it shorter than you intended to drop it.

[sek69]

Not necessarily a big loss in the technical sense, but it didn't seem like the Road Warriors had the same aura after getting Dusty Finished out of the tag titles at Starrcade 87. I remember at the time among the wrestling fans I knew it was a foregone conclusion that they were just going to murder Arn and Tully, not even a doubt. Not to mention the show was in their hometown and it just seemed line a no brainer. When they didn't get the belts it was like everyone was like "man, fuck this company" and started watching the WWF more. Not saying it was the worst decision Crockett made in that time period (or on that show for that matter), but for my small unscientific data sample it was the beginning of the end for JCP.

[jdw]

I thought the booking of the Garvin title win was fairly well known: they wanted Flair to win the title at Starrcade so needed an interim champion in the meantime. No one really wanted to be champ for 40 days or so, and Garvin took his one and only opportunity.

I didn't think it was a matter of no one else wanting it. I always thought, even at the time long before reading the WON, that:

 

* they wanted Flair to challenge & regain at Starcade

* they didn't want to sacrifice any of their young babyfaces

 

The first we all agree on.

 

But I thought, and still believe, that they had long term plans for Barry and soon-to-be-turned Lex. Sting at that time hadn't blown up, so didn't count yet.

 

I think in Dusty's mind, Barry winning and then dropping it back would have left him like Tommy Rich and Kerry: former NWA Champs who couldn't get back up to that level, and worse get dropped back down a few spots on the cards as someone else challenges Flair. There's room for Dusty in that roll, since with the book he could always give himself something (as he did at that Starcade). But Barry dropping into the middle of the cards after winning the NWA Title makes Barry look really bad.

 

It is one of the problems with a closed promotion: what do you do with guys after they've hit a peak like that until you re-peak them.

 

They kind of took care of Lugar after his 1988 feud with Flair by giving him the US title basically forever (I exagerate... but it was pretty much all of 1989 through mid-1991). Sting was a bit lost after dropping out of the NWA Title picture in early 1988, but they were also a bit thin in top faces so by default he continued to look like one. He got lucky to have Muta come along in 1989, then getting drawn into the Flair-Funk feud. He also got a bit lucky since they flipped Lex, so that cleared one top face out of the way.

 

The WWF had ever so slightly better luck with it in that era because of their split crews: the #2 and #3 faces didn't always have to be on the same card as Hogan. The #2 or #3 heels didn't always have to be on the same card as say Savage, and in a sense Hogan's Opponent was something of a #1-A Heel in the promotion while on that run. In Crockett, there were a lot of guys who got runs with Flair that never really felt like anything other than an Opponent: Brad, Jimmy Garvin.. and frankly Ronnie in 1987. He didn't feel like a bigger face than say Dusty, or Nikita, or Barry.

 

Anyway, I've gone slightly adrift here.

 

But I've always thought, regardless of what they might say now in work-shot-interviews, that they simply didn't want to sacrifice anyone else. Flair had good matches with Garvin over the years, they always tended to work for the crowds in the buildings... though admittedly weren't big draws. Flair knew how to work a feud with him, and it was a natural storyline extension of Flair-Jimmy.

 

John

[Johnny Sorrow]

And Ron Garvin and Flair had a long standing feud. It's not as if Garvin came out of the blue as a guy who was feuding with Flair and was a World Title Challenger.

[sek69]

Every babyface made a point of challenging Flair in interviews, and his angle with Flair was more him helping Jimmy when Ric was horndogging over Precious than a world title program. It came off (to me at least) as something to keep Flair occupied until the next Big Angle kicked off, and all of a sudden Ronnie was champ.

 

I think it gets overlooked that no matter how or why he got the belt, it added several years on his career he probably wouldn't have had otherwise. Sure, jobbing to Boris Zuhkov in 1990 or whatever is bad, but I don't think he even gets hired by Vince if he isn't a former NWA champion. Ronnie was winding down as it was in JCP, people forget he was in the business over 20 years by the time he won the title. So the way I see it, it was like a lifetime achievement award that got him a year of WWF paychecks that were probably double what JCP was paying (and even if they weren't at least he could cash them).

[Johnny Sorrow]

Every babyface made a point of challenging Flair in interviews, and his angle with Flair was more him helping Jimmy when Ric was horndogging over Precious than a world title program. It came off (to me at least) as something to keep Flair occupied until the next Big Angle kicked off, and all of a sudden Ronnie was champ.

 

I think it gets overlooked that no matter how or why he got the belt, it added several years on his career he probably wouldn't have had otherwise. Sure, jobbing to Boris Zuhkov in 1990 or whatever is bad, but I don't think he even gets hired by Vince if he isn't a former NWA champion. Ronnie was winding down as it was in JCP, people forget he was in the business over 20 years by the time he won the title. So the way I see it, it was like a lifetime achievement award that got him a year of WWF paychecks that were probably double what JCP was paying (and even if they weren't at least he could cash them).

See, on TBS for YEARS they'd do these mini Ron Garvin/ Flair feuds before 87 and Jimmy and Precious. They had lots matches on TV and at house shows, especially in 85. Ron Garvin was the utility top guy to fight Flair during and between various angles. It wasn't just Garvin challenging him in promos or Flair listing him in his "lists of guys" promos.

 

At least that's how it comes off after watching Will's Horseman set.